Comic July 24, 2015: Sweep the leg!

[Deebles]

I have a pet hypothesis that this whole room is designed to test martial arts skill, with the constructs being created as sparring partners, and the vines/ropes being intended to safely incapacitate intruders to be retrieved later. Only problem is, somebody stopped checking the vines for captives. Maybe whoever built the room (an Arcane Fist, perhaps?) dialed up the "danger room" difficulty a little too high and lost their sparring match with the constructs; maybe someone else killed them.

More likely it's just another random dungeon trap, though.

[Xavier78]

That was a good read. Thank you nikohl.

Can't tell if sarcasm or genuine appreciation of wall of D&D nerd text Going to assume the one that makes me happy. You're welcome! I'm glad my thinking-too-much about D&D (and occasionally the comic) was beneficial.

No, not sarcasm at all. I enjoyed that.

[hightechartist]

Sorry to be nitpicky, but how does he know what a Jedi is?

[spiderwrangler]

Because he's a player character.... One that isn't below referencing things outside the game world that his character shouldn't know.

[Talos]

What are the odds that this dungeon will have things in it that the others will need Minmax to handle? Apart from Big Ears, the others aren't exactly well-equipped. Plus, even after all this time, they are still beneath level 10. Possibly lower than level 5, if my memory serves. That's the thing to remember; in game terms, this is a low-level party. A low-level party which is for the most part, badly-equipped.

[StClair]

I'd say the odds are rather good that the dungeon will have one room that specifically tests/requires the abilities of each of the classes present in the party, and offers a reward useful to someone of that class. This is the Monk Room.

And to address an earlier point: yes, that's contrived as hell. But this is a story and/or a game, created to entertain players and/or an audience. Roll with it.

[Talos]

I'd say the odds are rather good that the dungeon will have one room that specifically tests/requires the abilities of each of the classes present in the party, and offers a reward useful to someone of that class. This is the Monk Room.

And to address an earlier point: yes, that's contrived as hell. But this is a story and/or a game, created to entertain players and/or an audience. Roll with it.

There's a reason "contrived" is so often attacked on things like Cinema Sins. I for one don't like contrived games.I suspect many here are of the same opinion. If the "monk room" bit is true, then what are the odds that they just happened to stumble into a dungeon which was designed just for those specific classes? Or a dungeon which reconfigures itself to be more easily conquered by whatever classes happen to enter it? Just throwing out a guess with that last one.

[Krulle]

Well, the GM knows who entered, and the dungeon layout may only be finalised the moment the party enters....
It is a game world after all.

But that would mean that Kore as a one-person party would only meet one high-level knight room, so he might be finished with the dungeon before the GAP+M...

[StClair]

I'd say the odds are rather good that the dungeon will have one room that specifically tests/requires the abilities of each of the classes present in the party, and offers a reward useful to someone of that class. This is the Monk Room.

And to address an earlier point: yes, that's contrived as hell. But this is a story and/or a game, created to entertain players and/or an audience. Roll with it.

There's a reason "contrived" is so often attacked on things like Cinema Sins. I for one don't like contrived games.I suspect many here are of the same opinion. If the "monk room" bit is true, then what are the odds that they just happened to stumble into a dungeon which was designed just for those specific classes? Or a dungeon which reconfigures itself to be more easily conquered by whatever classes happen to enter it? Just throwing out a guess with that last one.

At the risk of bringing doom upon us by invoking the Trinity, I'd say it's pretty clear by now that Herbert is much more of a Gamist GM, and possibly (also) a Narrativist, than a Simulationist. Dungeon complexes like this one explicitly exist for the adventuring parties that enter and engage them in risk for reward.

If you're looking for realism in a game or story where characters regularly (in this very strip, even) break the fourth wall and make pop-culture references, acknowledge that they exist within a tabletop role-playing game and discuss its rules and mechanics, I must say that yours is a fool's errand, and suggest that you look elsewhere.

[Talos]

I'd say the odds are rather good that the dungeon will have one room that specifically tests/requires the abilities of each of the classes present in the party, and offers a reward useful to someone of that class. This is the Monk Room.

And to address an earlier point: yes, that's contrived as hell. But this is a story and/or a game, created to entertain players and/or an audience. Roll with it.

There's a reason "contrived" is so often attacked on things like Cinema Sins. I for one don't like contrived games.I suspect many here are of the same opinion. If the "monk room" bit is true, then what are the odds that they just happened to stumble into a dungeon which was designed just for those specific classes? Or a dungeon which reconfigures itself to be more easily conquered by whatever classes happen to enter it? Just throwing out a guess with that last one.

At the risk of bringing doom upon us by invoking the Trinity, I'd say it's pretty clear by now that Herbert is more of a Gamist GM, or possibly a Narrativist, than a Simulationist.
If you're looking for realism in a game or story where characters regularly (in this very strip, even) break the fourth wall and make pop-culture references, acknowledge that they exist within a tabletop role-playing game and discuss its rules and mechanics, I must say that yours is a fool's errand, and suggest that you look elsewhere.

Even when they lean on the fourth wall (something that is being done less and less as this story has become more serious and less humorous), that still doesn't mean that some level of realism isn't a good thing. Just compare Skyrim to ESO. For those who don't know, the former is like a country in a box, while the latter is a rather obvious (if very, very large), set of obstacle courses. Yes, these are all games. Yes, they depend on artificial rules. Yes, most stories depend on a contrivance from time to time. But the good stories and the best games keep the artificiality hidden as best as possible and keep the coincidences and contrivances to a minimum.

There's a subtle difference between "Lost City of the Dwemer" and "Dwemer Dungeon # 12", but it makes the difference between believability and artificiality. If something is obviously set up to benefit whatever classes a party has chosen, that is wrecking the suspension of disbelief. That difference comes down to how fleshed-out the setting is. For a story that has gone on for this long, there is very little detail about the world in which Goblins takes place in. It seems as if some detail was added at first, but after the first story arc, it was more or less forgotten. Sure, a detail or two creep in from time to time in order to explain a dungeon, or a character's items, powers or behaviors, but when IME and Willowing are the most unique things about the setting, there's a problem. Those are the equivalent of glitter.

Going back to the Dwemer, we know much more about them in the Elder Scrolls than just "morally questionable race which made robots and lived underground." We know that they tampered with forces beyond even their ken to make themselves disappear. We know that they made metals which have been physically (or metaphysically!) altered so that they do not rust or tarnish, we know that they were cruel to other elves, specifically the Falmer (the "Dwarves" or Dwemer of TES were a kind of elf), and we know that they could inscribe knowledge using magical machines. And not a single one appears in any of the games (apart from Morrowind, where one appears), but we know more about them than most webcomics tell about the species in their settings.

To put it another way, The Order of the Stick also leans on the fourth wall from time to time, but the story works far better because the setting is so rich and believable. One can see how all of the pieces fit together. It has an internal logic.

[Guus]

The One Ring has a mind of its own and wants to return to Sauron;

Yes it does. But it also just happened to fall into the hands of one of the sturdiest races of Middle Earth, allowing them to carry out their mission. Which was made up by Tolkien in the first place. So yes, still a contrived coincidence.

I'd say that it is not alignment that dictates behavior but behavior that dictates alignment. If alignment (i. e. an outside source) was responsible for behavior and enforcing it, characters couldn't go against their alignment; for example, it would be impossible for a paladin to fall in that case, because they couldn't perform any action that isn't in sync with their alignment. However, nothing is preventing any character (PC or NPC) to do things that violate their alignment; there is no cosmic force in D&D that mysteriously stays a lawful good character's hand when they're about to perform murder. That said, in 2nd and 3rd edition at least, alignment is somewhat tangible, as there are powers and spells that will have effect on creatures of certain alignment. That makes it an in-game reality and not just an abstract stat on the character sheet.

True. It's a bit of both though, in D&D. Creatures are born within a certain alignment and usually stay there. It's kind of their natural state of being. Dire Rats do not have morality as such, still, in the D&D world, they can still be classified as evil. Of course, as soon as intelligence (or in the case of a Dire Rat: a good animal handler) comes along, a creature can become good despite of his/her default of being evil. You can break through the cosmic force with your actions, but then the cosmic force will simply shift you into another alignmnent, in which the particular rules of that alignment apply. And thus, as a paladin, you'd lose your powers, because they apply to your original alignment only.
As soon as intelligence comes into play, it becomes a problem, because of the possibility to make moral choices. But there is a base line alignment in D&D. You overcome your alignment and shift into another, you don't form your own.



@Talos: You are being a bit unfair. You are comparing a comic, which has great limitations to world building due to the format, to a sandbox game that you can spend hundreds of hours in to find every little detail.
Plus, one of my major annoyances with games like Skyrim (or the ES series as a whole, but Skyrim and Oblivion to the extreme) is that the world is, for the most important parts, static. "You can be the best lockpick in the world, but you still cannot open this door. Mercer can, however!". "We are attacking a fort, but we are waiting for you, single soldier, and allow you to roam the world as we freeze our butts of with our weapons in our hands". "It just so happens that almost every tomb/cave/fort has a shortcut out". "Almost every dungeon has its best loot stashed away in a big blue chest, so you conveniently know it's the end of the tomb".
No matter how many hours I spent in that game, and how much I love the ES, comparing it to a webcomic is unfair, and especially if you use an example where the "contrivance" is so incredibly obvious.

[SGTdude]

Dont know about anyone else, but when I read the line in the title I went

"You're the best! Arooound!"

[Talos]

@Talos: You are being a bit unfair. You are comparing a comic, which has great limitations to world building due to the format, to a sandbox game that you can spend hundreds of hours in to find every little detail.
Plus, one of my major annoyances with games like Skyrim (or the ES series as a whole, but Skyrim and Oblivion to the extreme) is that the world is, for the most important parts, static. "You can be the best lockpick in the world, but you still cannot open this door. Mercer can, however!". "We are attacking a fort, but we are waiting for you, single soldier, and allow you to roam the world as we freeze our butts of with our weapons in our hands". "It just so happens that almost every tomb/cave/fort has a shortcut out". "Almost every dungeon has its best loot stashed away in a big blue chest, so you conveniently know it's the end of the tomb".
No matter how many hours I spent in that game, and how much I love the ES, comparing it to a webcomic is unfair, and especially if you use an example where the "contrivance" is so incredibly obvious.

It's not the format. The Order of the Stick builds a fairly rich world, complete with three pantheons, a detailed back story, distinct and vibrant locations, and memorable characters which exceed the detail level of their Goblins counterparts in every way (not trying to start a fight between Thunt and Burlew!). Point is, it isn't the format.

And for the TES things you mentioned:

- Frey has an artifact stolen from a god to help him open those locks. It's not a contrivance.

- The soldiers are waiting for not just any soldier, but the Dragonborn. The magic-casting hero who can literally tell reality what to do in the form of shouts.

- As for the easy ways out, those exist due to limitations in that format. Really. If not for shortcuts out, players would spend much time just backtracking through an empty dungeon filled with corpses and empty chests.

- Speaking of treasure chests, those are standard for the genre. It's not a contrivance that they be at the end of a dungeon. A contrivance would be a trap that only your very specific race/class/level can open, for example. Or if you know only a very few spells of limited use, you run into an opponent which can only be defeated by those particular spells.

[Krulle]

Yeah, and part of adventuring is passing the boring steppes between episodes.
It's what I did not like about the LotR films.
I missed the "life drags on while continue our boring ride through the nothingness for another uneventful day".

[Guus]

The OotS is a great webcomic. However, it is extremely wordy. Like, extremely wordy. So yes, there is much more exposition going on there. That's a choice a web artist makes.

On the TES-arguments: it's all about how you word them. Same goes for Goblins.
The axe didn't just happen to phase through the paladin, it was designed not to, as an incredibly powerful artifact holding an incredibly powerful demon.

The monsters in the jail weren't released just in time and went down the same path, the were released by THac0, who managed to use his skills to swipe the keys and release the monsters during the chaos.

The demon, yeah. I gotta admit that one, that was too over the top for me.

[Talos]

The OotS is a great webcomic. However, it is extremely wordy. Like, extremely wordy. So yes, there is much more exposition going on there. That's a choice a web artist makes.

On the TES-arguments: it's all about how you word them. Same goes for Goblins.
The axe didn't just happen to phase through the paladin, it was designed not to, as an incredibly powerful artifact holding an incredibly powerful demon.

The monsters in the jail weren't released just in time and went down the same path, the were released by THac0, who managed to use his skills to swipe the keys and release the monsters during the chaos.

The demon, yeah. I gotta admit that one, that was too over the top for me.

OOtS is very wordy, and while this can be a flaw sometimes, it doesn't really hurt it that much. Plus, not every page is that wordy.

As for the axe, that was contrived. A weapon that cannot hurt a specific character class, and then someone of that class happens to be there? Yeah.

So, all of those monsters happened to follow a goblin they had never met before, all went down the same path, all decided to keep going forward into the soldiers, and all were willing and in a condition to fight despite months or years of torture?

At least we agree on the demon one.

But the biggest contrivance of all was the "do-anything" shield. Although a full list of its powers were added retroactively, it could literally do whatever the plot needed it to. That sort of artifact is really not meant for a low-level party to have. Or be near. Or be on the same plane as, in some cases. The best thing about the shield was that it was destroyed and removed from the plot. "Shield of Contrivances" might have been a better name. Would have been an excellent and humorous example of lampshade hanging.

[Guus]

Totally agree on the shield part. I thought it was pretty cool though, but yeah.

[Sessine]

Quite often, I think, the only difference between a contrivance and world-building is the quality of the handwave.

In the LotR books Gandalph implies that some of the biggest seeming coincidences are in fact Meant. Tolkien's world includes higher powers that do intervene, albeit subtly and never in such a way that it could not be attributed to coincidence. The One Ring, serving the purposes of Sauron, causes itself to be lost by Gollum and found by someone who is just passing through and can carry it out of the depths. Something Else, in opposition to Sauron, arranged for that someone to be a hobbit, of all the races of Middle Earth the one best able to resist the Ring's corrupting influence. In other words, the finder being Bilbo derives directly from the nature of Tolkien's world. Now, when he first wrote The Hobbit he was writing a children's book. At that time his world wasn't fleshed out in nearly as much detail as it later became. Though Gandalph's hint may indeed be a retcon, it's a high-quality one, more like a discovery of greater depths in the world than a mere excuse.

Thunt is no Tolkien, but I think you can't fault him for the Axe of Prissan. By now it's apparent that this Axe's nature is and always was essential to his unfolding plot. It was made to be what it is, even before the story started, by paladins to have special properties for paladins. Kore, one of the main antagonists, is (mysteriously, because we haven't gotten to the explanation yet) a paladin. Big Ears picked paladin as his class because that's the kind of person he is. Nothing in this counts as a mere contrivance; it's a premise, without which there would be no story.

Rather than insert background info as verbiage in the comic itself, stopping the story while one character explains everything to another character, when Thunt has a really big chunk he wants us to know, sometimes he creates supplementary side-documents as direct info feeds to the readers. That's what happened with the Axe. This is his artistic choice. It lets his comic be less wordy, and it also allows him better control of which character knows what, independently of what we as readers understand. Could he have handled the timing of the reveal better? Maybe. I don't know. I can sort of see why he did it when he did.

It's great when at least some foreshadowing of a major premise can be woven organically into the very beginning of a story. If he were telling it over again, maybe he'd somehow do something at the outse-- oh, wait, look! The very first character we see IS a paladin.

[RocketScientist]

So, all of those monsters happened to follow a goblin they had never met before

No. They were willing to follow the Legendary Thac0, whom many of them did know. Just look at his interaction with Nail. Thac0 used to be a prisoner there, and he escaped. Dellyn considered him his nemesis. They were following the guy that somebody probably brought up every time someone else said that no one could escape from the Goblinslayer.

[Catmandont]

I love the fact that we get TWO movie nerd references; not only in one comic, but one PANEL.

Karate Kid and Star Wars.... Gotta love it.

[SpeaksManyLanguages]

Some info dump from the Tarol's livestream. Spoilers.
Read at your own risk.

I mean it, spoilers. Seriously. Just don't open it.

► Show Spoiler

1. Blindfolds allow everyone to see incoming attacks, that includes the statues themselves. However, they are lower level than Thaco, so they suck and cannot avoid him. By wearing the blindfold Thaco levelled the field, so to say.
2. In two pages Thaco will find out that blindfolds work only if the user doesn't have weapons equipped. If you're holding a weapon, it's just a piece of cloth and you don't see anything through it.
3. Everybody is getting loot in this room from the dead adventurers.
4. Minmax isn't taking Oblivious out in this room -- though we already know this because of the colours (armor has to be grey, surroundings have to be red).

[Krulle]

► Show Spoiler

Number 4 tells me that I don't need to worry about Oblivious having been pulled by a different Minmax in a different run of the MoM...
I was asking myself anyway whether Oblivious only worked inside the MoM, and would not appear outside the MoM, due to the blotched way time flows inside the MoM.

3. Loot! I was already expecting that, knowing that most main-protagonists survive until at least near the end of the story.

2. Ouch.

1. That's not spoilery. That's what we understood from this and last page already.

And thank you for posting the info. I never have time to go on-line for his drawing sessions, and when I once did (2 or even three years ago) the sound did not work anyway... The sound might work better than with the service he used back then. So I really appreciate receiving this info too.

[SpeaksManyLanguages]

► Show Spoiler

1. Yes, but hearing the confirmation that they work on everyone (NOT class-locked) is important.

[spiderwrangler]

So, all of those monsters happened to follow a goblin they had never met before

No. They were willing to follow the Legendary Thac0, whom many of them did know. Just look at his interaction with Nail. Thac0 used to be a prisoner there, and he escaped. Dellyn considered him his nemesis. They were following the guy that somebody probably brought up every time someone else said that no one could escape from the Goblinslayer.

Oh, and he just HAPPENED to have escaped before?! How contrived!

[RocketScientist]

Do not question the Legendary Thaco's life choices!