Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby WearsHats » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:18 pm

It's not clear to me. Time resets every time someone wins. (And I think there may be a finite number of times you can run the maze? Eventually, you'll run out of alternates to challenge, right?) But if you destroy the counter, you retain your memories and you gain XP. So you're reset back to where you started, but time isn't entirely reset for you, is it? So if you routinely destroy your counter, you might just age, after all. I'm not sure what PsiMax looked like when they first entered the Maze, so I don't think there's a good way to know.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby Glemp » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:32 am

I assumed it meant they'd keep their memories of what happened, but physically their bodies and items would reset, hence their comments on losing anything they took from the prize room and Psimax needing to kill his Forgath and Kin at the start of his run again even though his counter was destroyed. Also Wears, I expect the problem isn't running out of alts, it's more running out of challenging alts - eventually they'll be equal in level to the strongest FMK party, then they won't get enough EXP to be worth staying.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby ForgetsKeys » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:31 am

Since PsiMax's Kin and Forgath kept being brought back to life, I agree that Kin probably didn't age.

It's too bad that Kin didn't get rid of the cursed collar while she was there. If she's worried about it self-destructing, experimenting with it in a space where she'll be revived after each death would be pretty handy. I'm guessing the collar still has a role to play in the story.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby Sessine » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:58 am

ForgetsKeys wrote:Since PsiMax's Kin and Forgath kept being brought back to life, I agree that Kin probably didn't age.

It's too bad that Kin didn't get rid of the cursed collar while she was there. If she's worried about it self-destructing, experimenting with it in a space where she'll be revived after each death would be pretty handy. I'm guessing the collar still has a role to play in the story.

It pretty much has to have a role to play. It has too much story-load on it. We'd all feel pretty cheated if it suddenly vanished off-panel with just a handwave... "Oh, that old thing, Minmax? The thing that made me a sex slave, the thing I hated so intensely that you using it for even one second made me dump you? Hey, don't worry, no problem, done with. Long gone. Dealt with it way back."

I mean, Thunt could have had her manage to get the collar off by experiment if he was going to focus in and tell the story of the Kins in the Maze. But it's clear now that we're only going to get, at most, a summarized flashback of what Kin did there. The collar is too important to be dealt with so lightly.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby Glemp » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:27 am

Sessine wrote:
ForgetsKeys wrote:Since PsiMax's Kin and Forgath kept being brought back to life, I agree that Kin probably didn't age.

It's too bad that Kin didn't get rid of the cursed collar while she was there. If she's worried about it self-destructing, experimenting with it in a space where she'll be revived after each death would be pretty handy. I'm guessing the collar still has a role to play in the story.

It pretty much has to have a role to play. It has too much story-load on it. We'd all feel pretty cheated if it suddenly vanished off-panel with just a handwave... "Oh, that old thing, Minmax? The thing that made me a sex slave, the thing I hated so intensely that you using it for even one second made me dump you? Hey, don't worry, no problem, done with. Long gone. Dealt with it way back."

I mean, Thunt could have had her manage to get the collar off by experiment if he was going to focus in and tell the story of the Kins in the Maze. But it's clear now that we're only going to get, at most, a summarized flashback of what Kin did there. The collar is too important to be dealt with so lightly.


I don't know, I thought that after that one time with the collar, Kin would have extra motivation to get rid of it before meeting Minmax - in fact, Goth Kin was magic-focused as I recall. In any case, that incident could have been the payoff for the collar.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby BuildsLegos » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:45 am

Removing the collar before reuniting with Minmax would rob him of the agency to show that he's learned, and she's better off not sinking to his level.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby Glemp » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:11 pm

Sinking to his level? Taking the collar off would be extremely sensible, not just because of the anxiety it must cause her but because it would be ridiculously easy to use against her in combat - frankly I'm surprised none of the other FMKs did it barring Psimax. I wouldn't e surprised if it's been replaced with a fake by now to test Minmax's character.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby thinkslogically » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:30 pm

I will be disappointed if the collar (and by extension, much of Kin's suffering) is taken away from Kin and reduced to a simplistic opportunity for Minmax to do a bit of character development. Especially if it's done as a deliberate, passive-aggressive "test". IMO that would cheapen the importance of the collar to Kin and rob her of an important part of her own story arc.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby BuildsLegos » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:02 pm

I don't think Minmax deserves to not be tested, definitely not after how badly screwed up yesterday; it would be irresponsible of Kin to not make sure their true-sight isn't polluted by abuse -no matter how accidental. However, the possibility of a fake is the best of both worlds.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby Scoshan » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:19 pm

Sessine wrote:
ForgetsKeys wrote:Since PsiMax's Kin and Forgath kept being brought back to life, I agree that Kin probably didn't age.

It's too bad that Kin didn't get rid of the cursed collar while she was there. If she's worried about it self-destructing, experimenting with it in a space where she'll be revived after each death would be pretty handy. I'm guessing the collar still has a role to play in the story.

It pretty much has to have a role to play. It has too much story-load on it. We'd all feel pretty cheated if it suddenly vanished off-panel with just a handwave... "Oh, that old thing, Minmax? The thing that made me a sex slave, the thing I hated so intensely that you using it for even one second made me dump you? Hey, don't worry, no problem, done with. Long gone. Dealt with it way back."

I mean, Thunt could have had her manage to get the collar off by experiment if he was going to focus in and tell the story of the Kins in the Maze. But it's clear now that we're only going to get, at most, a summarized flashback of what Kin did there. The collar is too important to be dealt with so lightly.



I thought she was dumping him before that...
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby BuildsLegos » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:39 pm

She was having second thoughts because Ruby erased the "KEN" necklace from existence and memory; but when Minmax yanked on the leash, that was the final straw.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby RocketScientist » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:11 pm

What would happen if Minmax took the leash and told her that she never had to obey any future leash commands from him?
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby BuildsLegos » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:41 pm

Then Thunt would sink below the Ella Enchanted screenwriter's level, because at least that had Ella giving herself the order. Seriously though: Onyx's origin shows that later orders over-write the previous (don't resist the monkey-god, try to escape the monkey-god), so I doubt it would work for our Kin.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby Morgaln » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:44 pm

Sessine wrote:
ForgetsKeys wrote:Since PsiMax's Kin and Forgath kept being brought back to life, I agree that Kin probably didn't age.

It's too bad that Kin didn't get rid of the cursed collar while she was there. If she's worried about it self-destructing, experimenting with it in a space where she'll be revived after each death would be pretty handy. I'm guessing the collar still has a role to play in the story.

It pretty much has to have a role to play. It has too much story-load on it. We'd all feel pretty cheated if it suddenly vanished off-panel with just a handwave... "Oh, that old thing, Minmax? The thing that made me a sex slave, the thing I hated so intensely that you using it for even one second made me dump you? Hey, don't worry, no problem, done with. Long gone. Dealt with it way back."

I mean, Thunt could have had her manage to get the collar off by experiment if he was going to focus in and tell the story of the Kins in the Maze. But it's clear now that we're only going to get, at most, a summarized flashback of what Kin did there. The collar is too important to be dealt with so lightly.


Of course it wouldn't be the first item with significance that just vanishes off-panel without anyone even mentioning it. I mean, Complain's first sword? The one he took from the poorly locked treasure chest? The one that symbolizes his willingness to put the lives of the members of his clan over the traditions of and his own position in the tribe? Just left behind without a second thought or even casual mention afterwards.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby WearsHats » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:01 pm

That sword was lost in the vine room. He dropped it when he was grabbed to the ceiling. And then Thaco found the tumble sword and gave it to him. Thunt has talked about this on stream in the past. Complains did not have the emotional/symbolic attachment to it that you assume. And Thunt does write stuff the way player characters behave in many D&D campaigns, like being willing to chop off a finger or a limb for the sake of a better magical item. The traditions have been overthrown. He doesn't need the sword to remind him of that.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby Morgaln » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:40 pm

I'm well aware where and when the sword was lost, but that's not the point. Whether Complains had an emotional attachment to that sword or not doesn't change that it did have a symbolic significance in the story. That significance has been explicitely called out in the comic.
As for the excuse that this is how players act: leaving that sword behind was specifically not how player characters behave. The stereotypical gamer you are referring to (which isn't as common as parodies want to make us believe) would never just leave a magic item behind. Especially not without a better replacement. Complains had no clue what the tumble sword does or if it was even magical when they picked it up, so it wasn't an obviously better replacement. Even if it was, a magical sword is worth money, which is another very typical interest of the stereotypical gamer.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby BuildsLegos » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:35 pm

Maybe it would be realistic for goblins to care about the market value of magical items if the only merchant they ever knew was anywhere to be found instead of (secretly, to be fair) dead. Complains especially has been genre-savvy enough to know there's going to be a trend of better equipment as levels rise regardless of where they go. Even going by the weird downsides of the most recent loot, that the Tumble-sword was previously owned by an adventurer makes it worth investigating. As for why he didn't keep both, Fumbles ruined that opportunity by stumbling into the cavern.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby EatsAPeach » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:28 am

I'm expecting the collar to come off at a dramatic time. "Quick, Forgath, cast remove curse on my collar!" What if it blows up? "Just do it or we're all screwed." And then Kin's powers are unlocked. It also might be Minmax grabbing the leash and ordering her to use her powers; that way they can team up without removing the leash. She'd have to decide to trust him all they way, but then, she's followed him here.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby Glemp » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:59 pm

IIRC one of the guards said that Kins powers were suppressed as if it were a separate effect of the collar. I can't believe she's been under orders not to use them for all this time, because she was OK shooting at guards in Brassmoon and you'd think GS would have ordered her not to do that, or to return to him if someone dropped the leash. As a result, I can only conclude that orders only apply for as long as someone is holding the leash.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby Krulle » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:07 pm

Glemp wrote:IIRC one of the guards said that Kins powers were suppressed as if it were a separate effect of the collar. I can't believe she's been under orders not to use them for all this time, because she was OK shooting at guards in Brassmoon and you'd think GS would have ordered her not to do that, or to return to him if someone dropped the leash. As a result, I can only conclude that orders only apply for as long as someone is holding the leash.

It is also stated by Goblinslayer himself:
http://goblinscomic.com/comic/10222006 wrote:Dellyn Goblinslayer: Oh gimme a break, guard! It's a magical leash and collar. As long as someone holds the leash, she can commit no violent act, especially against the holder, and all of her Yuan-ti powers are subdued!
(geez- already nearly 12 years ago...)
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby BuildsLegos » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:44 pm

And if I may resume my tyrannical side, there shall be no more talk of "using the leash for good" from this point forth, as it is a symbol and literal tool of rape.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby Matney X » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:19 am

BuildsLegos wrote:And if I may resume my tyrannical side, there shall be no more talk of "using the leash for good" from this point forth, as it is a symbol and literal tool of rape.


Thunt was quite clear about that -- and about how he takes it incredibly seriously -- and he felt like it was such an important topic that he was willing to lose viewers to tackle it. "Using the leash for good" seems so out of character for Thunt that I can't imagine it ever happening.

Also, many of us were so driven by the leash:rape analogy that he would definitely lose readers if he ever cut-out-the-middle-man hinted that "rape is sometimes okay, if it's for good."

IMO, obvs.
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Re: Nov 28, 2017 - "Why Not" and feeling bad

Postby Arles » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:10 pm

Woah, I never saw that coming.
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