April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by RJJ7 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:15 pm

Reads_Forums wrote:That's the disappointing thing for me, she died resorting to anger and violence in an utterly futile manner.
I agree with you, insofar as you assert that Kin's death (assuming she dies right now) was not heroic in the way that any of the previous 3 were. However, it is still tragic. This isn't a case of a character being Too-Stupid-To-LiveTM. It's a case of a character having trauma that they were never able to recover from, and in the end being destroyed by it. So while it isn't the glory filled conclusion that we've seen thus far, I still think it is moving in a different sort of way.

Reads_Forums wrote:Trying to argue that because she was justified in her actions, it should increase her odds of success because of the nice warm karmic glow is a fallacy.
I don't think that anyone is arguing this. But then, I think that everyone is still hung up on different ideas of what was meant by the word "deserved".

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by napslikecat » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:27 pm

kadmus wrote:Longtime lurker here. Maybe someone has already adressed this before, but I see that you are talking about the keys' destruction. I think there is another key to open the treassure room, and maybe they still have it. http://www.goblinscomic.com/01272012/ Isn't this key just exactly as the "key that winks"?
It is identical. Knowing Thunt, there's a reason he'd draw an identical key. It's not like he's doing 3D rendering and just accidentally re-using an archived object. I guess this key would be useful if they do a re-run with memories intact, allowing them to skip the tower battle entirely.
Last edited by napslikecat on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by Sessine » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:34 pm

RJJ7 wrote:I think that everyone is still hung up on different ideas of what was meant by the word "deserved".
This.

Reads: "She deserved what she got," is entirely the wrong thing to say about a rape survivor. It's the context, man. Seriously, that's a trigger phrase. It's so exactly how certain (ahem) very undesirable people defend rapists, that it's hard to believe someone could miss the overtones and use that phrase about this situation.

But you clearly did. From the way you're responding, it never even occurred to you that it could mean anything other than a simple, "That was not such a well thought out move, and it had a predictable consequence."

The right response for you, now, is to say, "Oops, sorry, mega poor choice of words on my part. You get what I meant to say, right?" And then everyone else says, "Sure, it's cool, we get that you didn't mean that," and we all go back to being heartsick, and desperately trying to figure out if there's any possible way all three of our beloved characters can get out of this.
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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by SamWiser » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:39 pm

napslikecat wrote:
kadmus wrote:Longtime lurker here. Maybe someone has already adressed this before, but I see that you are talking about the keys' destruction. I think there is another key to open the treassure room, and maybe they still have it. http://www.goblinscomic.com/01272012/ Isn't this key just exactly as the "key that winks"?
It is identical. Knowing Thunt, there's a reason he'd draw an identical key. It's not like he's doing 3D rendering and just accidentally re-using an archived object.
The keys aren't identical. They are very similar, I'll give you that, but there are plenty of differences. Some of it may be perspective, but the teeth (the part that goes in the door, whatever it's called) are very different. If the differences were only in the handle, then I would say that it is probably important, but the part that matters, the part that goes in the door, is different. If the key that winks was kablooied by Psimax, then the other key won't help.
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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by Liesmith » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:45 pm

And the "not so well thought out" concept doesn't really play here. She might have made that attack while motivated solely by emotion, but it was literally her only option. If Psimax had grabbed her leash, there would've been a TPK. Do not pass Go, do not collect 200xp.

Of the entire party, Kin understands Oblivious the best, and she understands Forgath and Minmax pretty well, as least as far as combat tactics go. If Psimax grabbed her leash, then he would know all of those things. FMK would have no ace up their collective sleeve. They are so vastly outgunned by Psimax, that their only advantage...no, their only hope is surprise. If Kin had allowed Psimax to touch that leash, then their last hope is gone.

Even if she'd had hours to contemplate her course of action, and made it from a mindset of pure logic, then the only reasonable thing to do would be attack Psimax with whatever she had handy, and hope to kill him before he could retaliate. If she failed, she'd still succeed in removing his greatest intelligence asset-- herself-- from the playing board.
"All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day. You had a bad day once. Am I right? I know I am. I can tell. You had a bad day and everything changed."
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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by SamWiser » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:50 pm

Liesmith, I'm curious. What color is the last part of your signature? The last man on earth, knock on the door one. Because, it seem to be invisible.
Thanks to Arch Lich Burns for the avatar, and Mnementh for the mustache.

ÔÇ£Shoot the dictator and prevent the war? But the dictator is merely the tip of the whole festering boil of social pus from which dictators emerge; shoot him and there'll be another one along in a minute. Shoot him too? Why not shoot everyone and invade Poland?ÔÇØ
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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by Liesmith » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:45 pm

SamWiser wrote:Liesmith, I'm curious. What color is the last part of your signature? The last man on earth, knock on the door one. Because, it seem to be invisible.
The color code is: dff8ce, the same as the background, so it's invisible. I actually had it there for quite a while, but I figured the odds of someone stumbling across it were pretty slim, so I added a shadow to make it stand out a tiny bit.
"All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day. You had a bad day once. Am I right? I know I am. I can tell. You had a bad day and everything changed."
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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by DuIstalri » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:09 am

Seriously? I only started reading this when they were walking past the oblivion hole near the zombies, and already my second favourite character dies? Dammit Thunt. :(

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by Seadee » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:20 am

A yuan-ti has a regenerative process for when they have severe wounds and can enter a hibernation mode that can heal damaged organs and regrow lost limbs. While they are awake they can heal cuts and bruises in mere seconds and stab and blunt wounds in minutes. They also have the adaptability to adapt to the environment for survival, such as being able to hold their breath for hours while in water or emit a poison at stronger predators that are trying to kill them.

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by Liesmith » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:23 am

In addition to Seadee's point, there's also the fact that they're still in a bit retcon engine, so let's not assume she's dead for good just yet.
"All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day. You had a bad day once. Am I right? I know I am. I can tell. You had a bad day and everything changed."
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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by RocketScientist » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:24 am

willpell wrote:Is it not possible that you see passive-aggression where none exists?
Actually, I never used to see it at all. Since then I've been thoroughly educated on passive aggressiveness by certain members of this forum. :|

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by Liesmith » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:34 am

RocketScientist wrote:
willpell wrote:Is it not possible that you see passive-aggression where none exists?
Actually, I never used to see it at all. Since then I've been thoroughly educated on passive aggressiveness by certain members of this forum. :|
...sorry. :oops:
"All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day. You had a bad day once. Am I right? I know I am. I can tell. You had a bad day and everything changed."
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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by Snowy_One » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:17 am

I can't believe some people are saying that Kin deserved or should have expected her tail to explode. I know there are people far smarter than me who already have explained why this idea is wrong, but consider this. In order to make a statement like that you are taking a huge step back. You are not only leaving yourself behind by ignoring any emotional, personal, or reactive ties to a situation, you are placing yourselves in the shoes of a being of pure logic and effect despite a lacking of an understanding of both.

Kin saw Psimax just splat a mace without a second thought. If he wanted her dead he could do that to her head without much trouble. This isn't a battle she can 'win' on her own no matter WHAT card she plays. Her 'best' outcome is that Psimax achieves oblivion and makes her suffering short. As far as she knows, no backup is coming (and if it is, it will likely be just as hostile towards her), Forgath is pinned, Minmax is simply too far away to help, and one of the few things she truly has to herself has just been threatened. Her reaction and planning time consists of the few seconds it takes for Psimax to grab her rope at which point she has no choice but to follow his every command. This is, quite possibly, the worst fate for her. Not only dying (if not to Psimax, to oblivion), but losing her free will. However, she has the hope that, if Herbert wills it, she can get a natural 20 and Psimax a 1 on his saving throw.

From an emotional standpoint she's fighting for what she believes in and is being destroyed by a brute who wants to destroy EVERYTHING. From a logical standpoint, she's lost no matter what she does unless she lucks out (Psimax is very intelligent, remember, so he'd likely either kill her outright or keep her alive but in a position where she cannot reach the circles, so no sneaky business). From every standpoint possible except for an extreme narcissist who believes that, somehow, they could worm out of this situation despite almost every possible odd being against them she is doing the right thing.

She doesn't deserve this by any means. Kin is not some sort of monster trying to kill all life. She isn't some scumbag trying to cheat Psimax. She isn't even some hero putting her life on the line to stop him. She's a scared girl, terrified of losing the one thing that matters the most to her (her freedom), and putting it all on the line in one desperate ploy to try and protect it. Out of all the possible reasons to justify dice manipulation in a game, this is certainly one of the better ones. Her death (if she dies) is nothing more than a tragedy. A tale of a monster forcing himself onto a scared girl to get what he wants with no thought or care to her own well-being. Made worse by the fact that Psimax refused Forgath's 'sacrifice' simply so he could feel better about himself. This is nothing more than tragedy with only a faint hope of some bitter-sweet ending on the horizon.

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by Pneumo » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:23 am

And to add a little bit of hope.
We see her tail go SPLISHK, but we don't see how much of it.
The "explosion" reaches to below her "waist" but she has a real long tail (see panel 5) and it could be that the exploding part is more towards the end (the part she's using to strangle), then the thicker part where most of her tail and muscle is, and the explosion is just covering the rest of her tail.
If Psimax still wants to question her, he'll only blow up the part that's strangling him.

And even when her tail is blown up to below her waist...
Snakes carry their vital organs in their entire body, but we do not.
It could very well be that all of her vital organs are "above waste" so (apart from the massive blood loss) she might survive this.

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by RocketScientist » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:31 am

Liesmith wrote:
RocketScientist wrote:
willpell wrote:Is it not possible that you see passive-aggression where none exists?
Actually, I never used to see it at all. Since then I've been thoroughly educated on passive aggressiveness by certain members of this forum. :|
...sorry. :oops:
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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by Glemp » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:33 am

BeanDip wrote: Nothing is stopping PsyMax from just SPLISHKing Kore's bolts as they fly toward him. SPLISHK EX MACHINA!
True.
However, I don't think that he could SPLISH them. Most the times we've seen him SPLISH stuff, it's been things that are stationary, that he can focus on. The only thing that wasn't was his Kin's tail, which he was expecting to move in that way because of how many time's he's dealt with her. I don't think that he'd be able to cope with multiple fast-moving objects.

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by Reads_Forums » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:07 am

Sessine. Have you been a victim of rape or sexual abuse because your tone comes across like you are reading from a manual on how to talk about it.

To me coming across like you feel you need to tread on eggshells around a victim of a serious crime isn't appropriate and is bordering on patronising to me. I've never asked people to use certain language around me and I certainly won't now. It does piss me off when people try to tell me how I should feel about it though and after hearing the same lines again and again from the experts, I'm pretty glad I didn't get any "help". I'd hate to feel that way about things living in fear of concepts like trigger phrases. Pretty sure you could write anything you liked and while I might find it unpleasant, it won't affect me emotionally.

I don't see myself as superhuman in terms of my ability to deal with it and while I can understand others might still be dealing with it in other ways, I really hate the way people attach stereotypes to how a victim should act or behave.



To me "she deserved it" meant exactly what the words say, no hidden subtext, I've clarified so no one has any real excuse to get offended or feign offence on behalf of others. She tried to kill someone with the power to kersplishk. Kersplisk was an inevitable outcome of her actions. Not kersplishking her for sentimental reasons would have been terrible plot armour and undermined psimax's whole point. You attack someone with a knife with your bare hands and no combat skills, it's highly likely you'll get stabbed, kin did the equivalent of charging a machine gun nest with her bare hands, completely futile and predictable outcome.

"But I liked her" Is a terrible reason to contrive the story in a way she doesn't go kerspishk.

Yes it was tragic, the tragedy being she turned her brain off resulted in crippling injury or death. It wasn't inevitable, she was the main agent of her demise, just like I suspect psimax will be the main agent of his.

While it serves a purpose from a narrative point of view, the fact remains her actions were a futile frantic effort, in complete contrast to chiefs death, whose death should have been heroic but for Kore's undermining of that. I think that's the most disappointing thing, of all the characters she struck me as the least likely to pull a bonehead, minimax I can understand doing stupid and rash things.

If kin was a PC her player has no reason to feel hard done by.

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by cyco » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:34 am

Dangerously approaching stormy waters...

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by LAYF » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:15 am

[mod="LooksAtYouFunny"]Now.. PLEASE!

While rape has been a subject of KinÔÇÖs past, and the violent behavior of PsyMax relates to that.
That is IN COMIC.....

Personal experience and questions/remarks and other things about rape is NOT in comic.
While some people have experience, and some have opinions on rape, this is NOT what this thread is about. This thread is about the comic, so please... keep it comic related, or actions will be taken.

Best regards -LAYF-[/mod]
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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by Bad At Jokes » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:37 am

There is definitely a joke about a magician and hypnotism here by I just cant place it.

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by Plays_Games » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:55 am

(Longtime lurker, first time poster here, Hi all!)

It's been suggested that psimax could be throw into the winners circle, thus resetting the maze. Possibly destroying their own counter, so they keep their memorys.

Wouldn't it be more logical for PsyMax to let 'our' FMK group win the maze, and redo the calculations with a new group?
  • PsyMax has said something about a group using oblivion-holes to their own advantage, everyone (including FMK) seems to think this concerns using the hole in the ceiling. But what about 'Oblivious', the sword MinMax is wielding. No doubt that is causing more problems in said calculations then a simple hole in the ceiling.
  • You could argue that the love Kin & MinMax feel for each other is causing PsyMax to feel nausea, adding even more variables on two ends.
  • PsyMax could easily extract MinMax from the tower battle to check what is what, thus reuniting the group.
I think it might be something like this, or possibly MinMax killing PsyMax with oblivious, since PsyMax wont be able to 'splish' the sword.

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by YardMeat » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:00 am

Reads_Forums wrote:You attack someone with a knife with your bare hands and no combat skills, it's highly likely you'll get stabbed, kin did the equivalent of charging a machine gun nest with her bare hands, completely futile and predictable outcome.
None of the analogies you have offered so far come even close to matching the situation. All of them-the dragon analogy, the knife analogy, and the machine gun analogy-imply she was the one who initiated the confrontation, as if she would have never been in the presence of a dragon, knife, or machine gun had she not gone "charging" towards them. And while she may be out-gunned, she isn't unarmed. The look on PsiMax's face while being choked shows a bit more concern than a dragon would have when facing a level 1 adventurer.

Let's modify one of these analogies so that it is a bit more honest. It is like she is being pinned down by enemy machine gun fire by an enemy that plans on taking her alive and doing things to her that she has explicitly stated she would rather die than face again. In addition to that, getting captured alive would mean sacrificing not only herself but the person closest to her as well. She has absolutely no reason to believe that she would be allowed to live once this person is done doing horrible things to her and the person closest to her. Suddenly there is a break in the enemy fire as he starts to reload. She has a club that she might be able to kill the guy with if she gets to him in time, but she also has good reason to believe that she will not be able to get to him in time to use it. She goes charging in anyway. I'm sorry, but there is nothing foolish or irrational about this decision given the circumstances.

Can you please get around to explaining how the situation would be any better if she hadn't tried to choke him?

P.S. I completely agree with you when it comes to the fact that what happened to her makes sense in light of the story, and sparing her would likely have been bad writing. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the fact that you seem to believe, and your analogies flat out imply, that she was the one who put herself into danger. She was already in danger. She took one of the only actions that had any remote possibility of saving herself and her friends. It was futile, sure, but every other option seems even more futile.

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by BeanDip » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:29 am

Glemp wrote:
BeanDip wrote: Nothing is stopping PsyMax from just SPLISHKing Kore's bolts as they fly toward him. SPLISHK EX MACHINA!
True.
However, I don't think that he could SPLISH them. Most the times we've seen him SPLISH stuff, it's been things that are stationary, that he can focus on. The only thing that wasn't was his Kin's tail, which he was expecting to move in that way because of how many time's he's dealt with her. I don't think that he'd be able to cope with multiple fast-moving objects.
Hmm. This is true. :|

I guess the only way we will know for sure is if we send Thunt lots of cash, hugs and "pretty pleases" in exchange for an "arena" where we can pit characters who never met against each other. >:D

Goblinslayer V Kore, Saral Caine V Kseliss, GAP V MMAP, Riss V Young and Beautiful, Anyone V Kore.

Sounds like a nice dream anyway. :zzz:
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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by thinkslogically » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:48 am

Perhaps it's already mentioned, but to me it seems like Kin panicked and reacted the only way that she could see available to her. Forget logic, forget the 'right thing', forget the 'only thing' - she freaked out and just did SOMETHING to make Psymax stop.

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Re: April 26th 2013 - Its Better To.

Post by WearsHats » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:49 am

Bad At Jokes wrote:There is definitely a joke about a magician and hypnotism here by I just cant place it.
You signed up with the forum, under the name "Bad At Jokes" to tell us you think there's a joke here, but you can't make it? Nice.
Plays_Games wrote:(Longtime lurker, first time poster here, Hi all!)
Hi! (This thread really is bringing in a lot of new members. That's awesome.
It's been suggested that psimax could be throw into the winners circle, thus resetting the maze. Possibly destroying their own counter, so they keep their memorys.

Wouldn't it be more logical for PsyMax to let 'our' FMK group win the maze, and redo the calculations with a new group?
  • PsyMax has said something about a group using oblivion-holes to their own advantage, everyone (including FMK) seems to think this concerns using the hole in the ceiling. But what about 'Oblivious', the sword MinMax is wielding. No doubt that is causing more problems in said calculations then a simple hole in the ceiling.
  • You could argue that the love Kin & MinMax feel for each other is causing PsyMax to feel nausea, adding even more variables on two ends.
  • PsyMax could easily extract MinMax from the tower battle to check what is what, thus reuniting the group.
I think it might be something like this, or possibly MinMax killing PsyMax with oblivious, since PsyMax wont be able to 'splish' the sword.
Psimax doesn't know about Oblivious. He knows that something is causing time/space disturbances, but he doesn't know the source, let alone that it's our Minmax doing it.

That said, it was our Minmax and Kin who originally threw off his calculations. And it is our Minmax who is causing even further chaos. It would make sense for Psimax to just let them go, if he's willing to accept that his engine just isn't going to be completed this time. (Thunt mentioned in the feed that he could do all this again, but that it's kind of like doing a hard level on a video game. You get right up to the end and have to give up and go back to the start of the level. And it's kind of like, "Okay, yes, I can do this, but... really? Again? When I was so close? Oh, man... *sigh*")

As to the question of what Kin should have done, my thoughts on this have already been more or less covered above, but as long as I'm posting I'll take the opportunity to restate it my way.

Kin and Forgath are being held motionless by a powerful enemy. Their one chance to save Minmax's life is to get past him to the treasure room. Psimax is ready to kill them both with a thought (literally) as soon as he gets the answers he wants. (As it happens, he's also ready to kill everyone else in the maze. But Kin very likely does not know that.) There's also the emotional aspect, but the argument at hand is pure tactics, so let's leave that aside.

Psimax is momentarily distracted. Kin can:

1. Hang there and do nothing. Psimax will interrogate her and then almost certainly kill her.

2. Try to engage him verbally. Psimax is a minmaxed psion with superhuman bonuses (from having traded at least one major ability) who is higher level than Kin. She's smart enough to know she's not likely to outsmart him.

3. Use her tail, the one weapon available to either Forgath or Kin which can reach him. Being minmaxed for intelligence, he's physically weak. (An exceedingly low strength and/or constitution stat just might explain the arms.)

4. Something else I'm missing.

Seems to me 3 is the only one that gives any kind of chance of getting out of this alive. It's a risk, but it's a but I don't see any other option giving her better odds.

I suppose she could have made a different type of attack. Gone for, say, hitting him in a place that would cause pain and distraction. But he's likely to have a lot of Concentration bonuses, so that's got a high chance of failure. Not to mention that choking him will, in itself, force a Concentration check anyway.

Trying to choke him, hoping to roll a crit, and hoping to finish the job before he recovers seems like the best tactical option to me.

But yes, I also agree with Thinks that it was also an emotional reaction. With very good, strong reasons.
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