Kore Discussion / Speculation

[Surran├│]

Hello All,

Believe it or not, I've read through all 300 posts (and took notes) so hopefully I won't bring up old theories as "brand new"-- but I'd like to summarise some main points.

1. Things we believe to be facts since appeared in the comic or some refer to it as direct info from THunt:
- Kore is a "by-the-book", "core" paladin (THunt)
- Kore is heard of by Thaco (09242006)
- Kore is heard of by Forgath (20xxxxxx)
- Kore is magically influenced, cursed or gifted (Y&B vs Kore, 20xxxxxx)
- Kore can cast spells as a level 14 paladin
- Kore can use Lay on Hands (a charisma based class ability) but we haven't seen him using any other charisma based ability, e.g. a mount or smite evil.


2. Subjective deeds, willing/unwilling and Atonement
Several people discussed this and I'm on the side who says that Evil / Good are objective forces and it's not God or your personal belief that decides on your fall as a paladin. And I don't think that any version of the atonement theory would stand (even though I liked the IME as atonement idea) Still, there's one thing that is ambiguous about the willingness and Atonement. The "Ex-Paladins" chapter (both v3.0 and v3.5) says "willfully" but the v3.0 "Atonement" spell says "unwillingly or unwittingly" and explicitly excludes "willingly". Do we know if THunt uses 3.0 or 3.5?
As for compulsion (wish, geas, demon curse, domination, insanity -- you choose) there was one specific theory that Kore is gifted by his god to do evil deeds without falling so that he could break the axe. If I were this god I would've just made it a "gift" so that Kore is allowed to do evil deeds without falling while wielding the axe. Not before, not after. but that's just me. An unjustly strict god.


3. Kore, the demon and the Axe
Haven't found official source but a former wielder, Flejj Hillmover, has been attacked by Kore twice and his (unofficial) bio says that Kore pursued him because of the Axe. This implies several things:
- Kore has known the Axe for quite some time, what's more explicitly and actively sought it in the past
- But the Axe is not his primary target now (at least it wasn't until he met Ears)
- Kore did not recognise the Axe at first sight which strikes me strange but might be due to its morphing ability to match wielder, see also story of 4-year-old Felsibeth 'Soot' Blackbringer

4. Kore and Forgath
- Kore is Forgath (either MoM or time travel or such): I find these theories so artificial that I consider them ruining the integrity of the story and doubt that THunt would make such a mistake.
- Kore knows Forgath: no direct references, but see below:
- Forgath knows Kore: possibly.
Some more tidbits:
- Forgath calls him as "Cursed scourge of the realm" (12122013)
- Forgath calls him "last of the Greyhill Paladins"
- Forgath expected a rant of him as if they'd been through that in the past. Alas, rant cancelled by KA-THUNK.
- They have very similar eyes and beards. Something that can't simply be an oversight on behalf of THunt. He's not like that.

5. Kore and THunt
What do we know about THunt's perspective on Goblins?
- Goblins is about equality and tolerance in contrast to supremacy and prejudice
- E.g. (at least) one of the Goblins characters is believed to be gay (or lesbian though I recall explicitly "gay")
- Kin is a rape victim
- and many other characters are physically, mentally or socially impaired (don't know the proper word in English but these are the usual victims of prejudice in our real world)
- Viper Clan (is believed to) represent supremacy
So how does Kore fit into the picture?
- Does Kore simply represent prejudice in our setting?
- Does he have any other purpose in addition to his obvious prejudice against monsters?

6. Lots of screaming
The Talking wall of brassmoon said this and I have three possible explanations for this already, more may come in the future:
- It refers to the suffering faces in Kore's IME
- It refers to Chief's suffering
- It refers to Forgath's already suffered wounds.

7. My theory bits:
Not a concluding story since I haven't ever foreseen THunt's twists and tweaks of the story. So you can take it as my bet concerning the near future (maybe today's update?)
- Kore will kill Forgath since Kore is a cheater and Forgath is a loser
- Soon (before or after Forgath's death) it'll be clarified that they are (close?) relatives. At least, Forgath is a Greyhill cleric.
- He would meet GAP+MM right within the DDM very soon, or (unlikely) meet them on the other end of DDM, before Forever Drop.
- MM will cut through Kore's armour like butter with his butter knife but probably won't kill him. THunt is apparently happy with people going around with mortal wounds just because an arrow or crossbow bolt is "only 1d8 damage". So even if Oblivious cuts through Kore's brain and heart, it would be two times 1d8+6 (MM has 22 STR) or such, just two scratches for a level 14 dwarven paladin. Still, this cut will be part of the decisive strike on Kore, if any.
- And as for Kin-- She won't come after them since his KEN necklace is destroyed by Oblivion. Still, they will rejoin before the final battle.
- The single eye slot on Kore's helm is due to his demon possession that makes the right part of his head (or at least his right eye) completely translucent. In the case of his eye, a translucent set of light receptors makes it pretty useless, eh?
- This demon possession came from the demon in the War Crater (i.e. he's the surviving paladin) or from some other demon, possibly Not-Walter (just joking).
- Ultimately, GAP+MM+possibly others will face Kore at Cryptic Fall. I can imagine three endings:

8. The Endings:
- They will win (Paperback ending),
- They will fight Kore while he works on releasing the demon but will ally to destroy the demon together (Hollywood ending)
- They lose by a hair of an ox, leaving Kore significantly scarred in the process (THunt ending I'm afraid)

Well, my two coppers, squeezed through that make-giant hole in MoM.
Surran├│

[RocketScientist]

Thunt uses 3.0 for the most part, but he does throw in 3.5 and homebrew rules from time to time.

[Schkliba]

- Goblins is about equality and tolerance in contrast to supremacy and prejudice
- Viper Clan (is believed to) represent supremacy
So how does Kore fit into the picture?
- Does Kore simply represent prejudice in our setting?
- Does he have any other purpose in addition to his obvious prejudice against monsters?

Since this comic actually is not that way allegoric, I don't think you can so easily say something/someone from comic stands for some abstract idea from real world. The characters of comic are more complex than that...

Anyway as you've said, whole Goblins is about prejudices and making a single character to be symbol of Prejudice (or single tribe as symbol for supremacy) is overkill. Actually EVERY single character in Goblins suffers from greater or lesser amount of prejudice and feeling of supremacy (maybe except for Fumbles and Ears).

Viper Clan represents (if anything) fight against prejudices and feeling of supremacy with more prejudices and feeling of supremacy, just turned upside down.

Finally, Goblinslayer was more prejudiced than Kore. While Goblinslayer thinks all monsters (and other creatures not bearing name Goblinslayer) ale lesser beings, that they have no soul, or whatever, that they are weak and so on... Kore just says: "Let's kill them!". He does all the slaughter because he just thinks monsters should not be alive (including everyone who can defend them).

[Krulle]

► Show Spoiler

Hello All,

Believe it or not, I've read through all 300 posts (and took notes) so hopefully I won't bring up old theories as "brand new"-- but I'd like to summarise some main points.

1. Things we believe to be facts since appeared in the comic or some refer to it as direct info from THunt:
- Kore is a "by-the-book", "core" paladin (THunt)
- Kore is heard of by Thaco (09242006)
- Kore is heard of by Forgath (12122013)
- Kore is magically influenced, cursed or gifted (Y&B vs Kore, http://www.goblinscomic.org/03272006/
- Kore can cast spells as a level 14 paladin
- Kore can use Lay on Hands (a charisma based class ability) but we haven't seen him using any other charisma based ability, e.g. a mount or smite evil.


2. Subjective deeds, willing/unwilling and Atonement
Several people discussed this and I'm on the side who says that Evil / Good are objective forces and it's not God or your personal belief that decides on your fall as a paladin. And I don't think that any version of the atonement theory would stand (even though I liked the IME as atonement idea) Still, there's one thing that is ambiguous about the willingness and Atonement. The "Ex-Paladins" chapter (both v3.0 and v3.5) says "willfully" but the v3.0 "Atonement" spell says "unwillingly or unwittingly" and explicitly excludes "willingly". Do we know if THunt uses 3.0 or 3.5?
As for compulsion (wish, geas, demon curse, domination, insanity -- you choose) there was one specific theory that Kore is gifted by his god to do evil deeds without falling so that he could break the axe. If I were this god I would've just made it a "gift" so that Kore is allowed to do evil deeds without falling while wielding the axe. Not before, not after. but that's just me. An unjustly strict god. :)


3. Kore, the demon and the Axe
Haven't found official source but a former wielder, Flejj Hillmover, has been attacked by Kore twice and his (unofficial) bio says that Kore pursued him because of the Axe. This implies several things:
- Kore has known the Axe for quite some time, what's more explicitly and actively sought it in the past ([url=ttp://www.goblinsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6& ... ore#p22935]see Flejj Hillmover transcription[/url])
- But the Axe is not his primary target now (at least it wasn't until he met Ears)
- Kore did not recognise the Axe at first sight which strikes me strange but might be due to its morphing ability to match wielder, see also story of 4-year-old Felsibeth 'Soot' Blackbringer

4. Kore and Forgath
- Kore is Forgath (either MoM or time travel or such): I find these theories so artificial that I consider them ruining the integrity of the story and doubt that THunt would make such a mistake.
- Kore knows Forgath: no direct references, but see below:
- Forgath knows Kore: possibly.
Some more tidbits:
- Forgath calls him as "Cursed scourge of the realm" (12122013)
- Forgath calls him "last of the Greyhill Paladins" (12122013)
- Forgath expected a rant of him as if they'd been through that in the past. Alas, rant cancelled by KA-THUNK. (01062014)
- They have very similar eyes and beards. Something that can't simply be an oversight on behalf of THunt. He's not like that.both are Dwarves. What do you expect?

5. Kore and THunt
What do we know about THunt's perspective on Goblins?
- Goblins is about equality and tolerance in contrast to supremacy and prejudice
- E.g. (at least) one of the Goblins characters is believed to be gay (or lesbian though I recall explicitly "gay")
- Kin is a rape victim
- and many other characters are physically, mentally or socially impaired (don't know the proper word in English but these are the usual victims of prejudice in our real world)
- Viper Clan (is believed to) represent supremacy
So how does Kore fit into the picture?
- Does Kore simply represent prejudice in our setting?
- Does he have any other purpose in addition to his obvious prejudice against monsters?yes, he wants to destroy all evil. The fight against monsters is only a consequence.

6. Lots of screaming
The Talking wall of brassmoon said this and I have three possible explanations for this already, more may come in the future:
- It refers to the suffering faces in Kore's IME
- It refers to Chief's suffering
- It refers to Forgath's already suffered wounds.

7. My theory bits:
Not a concluding story since I haven't ever foreseen THunt's twists and tweaks of the story. So you can take it as my bet concerning the near future (maybe today's update?)
- Kore will kill Forgath since Kore is a cheater and Forgath is a loser
- Soon (before or after Forgath's death) it'll be clarified that they are (close?) relatives. At least, Forgath is a Greyhill cleric.
- He would meet GAP+MM right within the DDM very soon, or (unlikely) meet them on the other end of DDM, before Forever Drop.
- MM will cut through Kore's armour like butter with his butter knife but probably won't kill him. THunt is apparently happy with people going around with mortal wounds just because an arrow or crossbow bolt is "only 1d8 damage". So even if Oblivious cuts through Kore's brain and heart, it would be two times 1d8+6 (MM has 22 STR) or such, just two scratches for a level 14 dwarven paladin. Still, this cut will be part of the decisive strike on Kore, if any.
- And as for Kin-- She won't come after them since his KEN necklace is destroyed by Oblivion. Still, they will rejoin before the final battle.
- The single eye slot on Kore's helm is due to his demon possession that makes the right part of his head (or at least his right eye) completely translucent. In the case of his eye, a translucent set of light receptors makes it pretty useless, eh?
- This demon possession came from the demon in the War Crater (i.e. he's the surviving paladin) or from some other demon, possibly Not-Walter (just joking).
- Ultimately, GAP+MM+possibly others will face Kore at Cryptic Fall. I can imagine three endings:

8. The Endings:
- They will win (Paperback ending),
- They will fight Kore while he works on releasing the demon but will ally to destroy the demon together (Hollywood ending)
- They lose by a hair of an ox, leaving Kore significantly scarred in the process (THunt ending I'm afraid)

Well, my two coppers, squeezed through that make-giant hole in MoM. :)
Surran├│

Made some corrections, and I've added some links to other threads, the comic, and internet, for references.
Yes, I hate having a wall of text and absolutely no links and very few references.... And even some wrong statements.
You already looked up some of the comics, please make the extra step and make the references clickable (You do not know how to? quote my post and have a look how I did it). It makes discussions much easier.

Oh, and I added a racist comment, in bold. Since all Dwarves look a like for my Human eye.

7. My theory bits:
Not a concluding story since I haven't ever foreseen THunt's twists and tweaks of the story. So you can take it as my bet concerning the near future (maybe today's update?)
- Kore will kill Forgath since Kore is a cheater and Forgath is a loser
- Soon (before or after Forgath's death) it'll be clarified that they are (close?) relatives. At least, Forgath is a Greyhill cleric.
- He would meet GAP+MM right within the DDM very soon, or (unlikely) meet them on the other end of DDM, before Forever Drop.
- MM will cut through Kore's armour like butter with his butter knife but probably won't kill him. THunt is apparently happy with people going around with mortal wounds just because an arrow or crossbow bolt is "only 1d8 damage". So even if Oblivious cuts through Kore's brain and heart, it would be two times 1d8+6 (MM has 22 STR) or such, just two scratches for a level 14 dwarven paladin. Still, this cut will be part of the decisive strike on Kore, if any.
- And as for Kin-- She won't come after them since his KEN necklace is destroyed by Oblivion. Still, they will rejoin before the final battle.
- The single eye slot on Kore's helm is due to his demon possession that makes the right part of his head (or at least his right eye) completely translucent. In the case of his eye, a translucent set of light receptors makes it pretty useless, eh?
- This demon possession came from the demon in the War Crater (i.e. he's the surviving paladin) or from some other demon, possibly Not-Walter (just joking).
- Ultimately, GAP+MM+possibly others will face Kore at Cryptic Fall. I can imagine three endings:

- I agree. Forgath will most likely die, and thankfully we have a chance of not having to see it, as I hope the point of view will follow the Goblins and Minmax, and not stay with Forgath (except for some "between you and me" talk)
- I don't think Forgath and Kore are relatives. Kore is the last of the Greyhill paladins, how could Forgath be a Greyhill cleric? The map shows us how far north the Greyhills are, and the place is simply called "Greyhill Paladins"... Forgath is a cleric, but not necessarily a Greyhill cleric...
- I think Kin will find out that she's been manipulated by Ruby. She will either find out what exactly happened, or continue with her task of brining the Jade Teapot home and then teaport after MM (I hope so).

Edit: Correction, and signature removed

[Surran├│]

Thanks for the links, Krulle. To be honest I was waaay to exhausted by the end of the text to throw in links. Apologies

As for Flejj; I meant "official" where I've ever seen a comic page about that character. Does *your* forum entry qualify as "official", as in: "approved by THunt"?

As for *your* human eye; I just expect THunt to be more subtle than that. That's all. But see the prev. question about your authority. I'm "officially" scared.

As for a Greyhill cleric; who'd ever said that there are only paladins in the Greyhill plains? But I'd go further than that. My guess is that Kore's Forgath's pa or grandpa.

As for Kin; (who's Onyx?) I like the idea to teaport once she got home.

[Liesmith]

Surran├│! You're awesome! Thanks for compiling all of that information...it makes wading back into this thread a lot less intimidating, and hopefully it'll help keep everyone (especially me) from re-hashing old points.

[Krulle]

Thanks for the links, Krulle. To be honest I was waaay to exhausted by the end of the text to throw in links. Apologies :)

As for Flejj; I meant "official" where I've ever seen a comic page about that character. Does *your* forum entry qualify as "official", as in: "approved by THunt"?

As for Kin; (who's Onyx?) I like the idea to teaport once she got home.

Flejj: the Axe of Prissan page was a (filler) page written by THunt. So I guess it's as much approved by THunt as you can get. The other AoP pages are still online, and hosted on Goblinscomic.com/.org
Onyx is one of the alternatives. And I need to correct that, as the red AltKin did it, and she's nicked Ruby. (link to her being named Ruby, and here another one)

Re Links: my pleasure. Makes your compilation of the discussion just more complete.

[Surran├│]

On today's boop--
Kore could be held that implies quite some facts;
1. His saves are "probably" not too high for Forgath to beat, i.e. his charisma is less than stellar (as already suspected)
2. Undead, constructs and other nonhumanoids can't be held, i.e he's none of those.
3. Forgath casts CMW-- to heal himself since Kore can't be undead. Hopefully.
4. Held people can't speak, i.e. Kore is either a cheater, or--

Here comes an old theory anew. There are two creatures in one. One (a dwarf) moves and can be held, another one (not held) can speak and, actually, cast "Remove Paralysis".
Forgath, who addressed Kore as "cursed scourge of the realm", possibly knows that the existence behind Kore's curse is some undead spirit and he plans to use CMW to harm that spirit.

Or (Occam's razor but I'm reluctant to accept this) THunt simply deviated from the "core" version of hold person and held people *can* speak. IIRC only past appearance of hold person was Forgath holding Thaco

[Gryphonic]

Forgath, who addressed Kore as "cursed scourge of the realm", possibly knows that the existence behind Kore's curse...

This was to me the biggest meta sign Forgath was going to die, or at least get split from the party. He knew more about Kore than the other characters, and the readers, already know, and now he can't tell them.

[RidcullyJack]

On today's boop--
Kore could be held that implies quite some facts;
1. His saves are "probably" not too high for Forgath to beat, i.e. his charisma is less than stellar (as already suspected)
2. Undead, constructs and other nonhumanoids can't be held, i.e he's none of those.
3. Forgath casts CMW-- to heal himself since Kore can't be undead. Hopefully.
4. Held people can't speak, i.e. Kore is either a cheater, or--

Here comes an old theory anew. There are two creatures in one. One (a dwarf) moves and can be held, another one (not held) can speak and, actually, cast "Remove Paralysis".
Forgath, who addressed Kore as "cursed scourge of the realm", possibly knows that the existence behind Kore's curse is some undead spirit and he plans to use CMW to harm that spirit.

Or (Occam's razor but I'm reluctant to accept this) THunt simply deviated from the "core" version of hold person and held people *can* speak. IIRC only past appearance of hold person was Forgath holding Thaco

The Forgath alt with all the rings in the Maze of Many also cast Hold Person on Minmax, but he wasn't held for very long. While he was held, he didn't speak.

Thunt posted an explanation of why Kore can speak when held in the thread dedicated to this page. Once you get past him being condescending to someone else wondering why Thaco couldn't talk when held but Kore could, it makes sense as a variation of the rules and is consistent.

[Krulle]

Thunt posted an explanation of why Kore can speak when held in the thread dedicated to this page. Once you get past him being condescending to someone else wondering why Thaco couldn't talk when held but Kore could, it makes sense as a variation of the rules and is consistent.

Link added.


Thunt's explanation is not sufficient in my eyes.
"Hold Person" cast against Thaco specifically shows a part of the holding spell across Thacos mouth.
This might be self-imposed, as Thaco is an old player and may live by old (i.e. previous D&D) rules he keeps self-imposing.
Or just simply wearing a mouth-covering helmet protects you from this part of the "Hold Person" spell...
Edit: The latter possibility is confirmed by Thunt here.


I'll also quote another THunt post here:

Since you are being active tonight THunt, can you say whether the goblin on Kore's left "wing" is one of the two he killed in the warcamp? I'm curious.

The only recognizable head in that panel is Chief. You can spot a goblin from the same clan as the dude standing on the far right of the 5th panel, here - http://www.goblinscomic.org/06262012/ . It's not the same goblin. Just a member of the same clan.

As another point, I'm just to quote my own tweets here...[1,2,3]

"When Kore's IME (screaming heads on chain wings) appeared in the fight vs Complains, those heads didn't have back stories. I just drew some (mostly) random heads. Since then, I've written ALL the back stories. The heads in today's page all have back stories and I think you can see the difference. These heads just 'look' more fleshed out. They look like individuals with names and history."

I see quite some possible fillers or bonus-material coming up...

[Surran├│]

The latter possibility is confirmed by Thunt here.

As THunt confirmed himself this could be called the dumbest houserule ever. But I'd go further: this doesn't simply allow Kore to talk but allows to cast a spell which is a standard action.
A level 2 spell blocked by a piece of (nonmagical?) metal? For crying out loud!

Furthermore, Forgath must've known that even if Kore (who's high level and a paladin who can cast highest level paladin spells, i.e. can cast remove para as well) failed his saving throw against him it'll be piece of cake to shake off a hold spell. Why even try? A frontal attack could've had more effect. (OK maybe Forgath didn't account for still spell but he should've accounted for the full helm for sure) Yeah you could argue but Forgath failed his Intelligence check or whatnot when coming up with this plan but it is... simply put... lame. As in: "L.A.M.E."

[Krulle]

Well, it won a bit of time. Hopefully enough.

[RedwoodElf]

The latter possibility is confirmed by Thunt here.

As THunt confirmed himself this could be called the dumbest houserule ever. But I'd go further: this doesn't simply allow Kore to talk but allows to cast a spell which is a standard action.
A level 2 spell blocked by a piece of (nonmagical?) metal? For crying out loud!

More than that, the spell Kore cast has somatic components as well. Unless Kore has Still Spell, he should not have been able to cast it.

[Lumenaught]

That leaves three likely possibilities for his actions: ..., a god that wants genocide, ....

That leaves a god that wants to destroy the races that lean chaotic evil. It's possible, especially given that Forgath worships a non-core god like Herbert. Such a god would be mostly lawful and mostly good if it just wants to destroy races like goblins. The problem with this is, no one in this universe has heard of that god, otherwise they would be talking about how Kore must be a crusader of that god. Kore could be one of the first followers of that god but that would be very coincidental. Possible but unlikely.

!KORE HAS NO GOD!

Think about it. A paladin doing evil will have their powers removed from them. But Who will remove those powers? Obviously the god that gave them.
Kin also said there was a god war long ago. Therefore, since Kore does not say any god's name before casting a spell, his god is dead.
(or he came from the a Maze of Many world...where we can just make up rules...like the only requirement to be a pally is to wear a thong...in that case,)

(!KORE WEARS A THONG!)

Sorry, had to be done... So the events must have gone as follows:
Kore is good pally> God war> Kore's god is dead> Kore gets to stay a pally> Kore goes crazy (or something)>
His god can't take away his powers> ?????> PROFIT!

[Wolfie]

Except for one thing: Paladins don't get their powers from a god. They get them from the primal force of Good, which is why some paladins can have simply follow a creed or belief and still have powers.

Clerics have to follow a god.

[Lumenaught]

Except for one thing:... They get them from the primal force of Good, which is why some paladins can have simply follow a creed or belief and still have powers.

OH FOR THE LOVE OF THONG!

Yeah, your right. I know were going by 3.5 rules, but traditionally and in 4th edition of D&D, paladins become champions of a chosen deity instead of just righteous warriors. (of course in 4th paladins can be of any alignment, and can no longer fall in disgrace and lose their pally-ness. so yeah, 3.5 is best.)

[Arles]

Clerics have to follow a god.

Not always.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

[YardMeat]

Clerics have to follow a god.

Not always.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Correct. However, if Clerics do follow a god, that's where their spells/abilities come from. Paladins do not receive their spells/abilities from a god, even if they do follow one.

!KORE HAS NO GOD!

Think about it. A paladin doing evil will have their powers removed from them. But Who will remove those powers?

Who removes a barbarian's ability to rage and prevents him from taking more barbarian levels if he becomes lawful? Who removes a druid's spells and abilities if they change to a restricted alignment? Who stops a bard from taking more bard levels if he becomes lawful? Who prevents a monk from doing so if he becomes nonlawful?

Asking "who" begs the question, and it starts you off with a false assumption. There is no "who" that removes a paladin's powers anymore than there is a "who" that does all of the things above. A paladin's abilities and spells come from the divine forces of good and law, not from a deity, just like a druid's abilities come from the divine force of nature itself.

Obviously the god that gave them.

In the rules as written, no god is involved.

Kin also said there was a god war long ago. Therefore, since Kore does not say any god's name before casting a spell, his god is dead.

BE doesn't invoke a god's name either.

(or he came from the a Maze of Many world...where we can just make up rules...like the only requirement to be a pally is to wear a thong...in that case,)

(!KORE WEARS A THONG!)

I'll admit, I cracked up a bit at that one. But honestly, a world where paladin powers came from deities instead of from the divine forces of good/law would be an alternate world as well. In core D&D, that's not how it works.

Kore is good pally> God war> Kore's god is dead> Kore gets to stay a pally> Kore goes crazy (or something)>
His god can't take away his powers> ?????> PROFIT!

Interesting, and there may be something to the idea of a dead god being involved somehow, but gods aren't normally required to take away paladin powers or grant them.

[Arles]

Correct. However, if Clerics do follow a god, that's where their spells/abilities come from. Paladins do not receive their spells/abilities from a god, even if they do follow one.

I'm not saying you are not right, but could you cite a source on that?

[YardMeat]

Sure thing: http://goblinsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f ... =75#p30852

I'm not trying to be snippy by linking directly to my previous post, since you had no way of knowing that I had already brought it up. I just wanted to link to the post since it also has some of my comments that clarify what I'm saying.

[Arles]

Sure thing: http://goblinsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f ... =75#p30852

I'm not trying to be snippy by linking directly to my previous post, since you had no way of knowing that I had already brought it up. I just wanted to link to the post since it also has some of my comments that clarify what I'm saying.

Oh, I must have missed your post. Thanks!

[Surran├│]

Kore's god is called "Kk" (see last panel

[Unlucky-for-Some]

On today's boop--
Kore could be held that implies quite some facts;
1. His saves are "probably" not too high for Forgath to beat, i.e. his charisma is less than stellar (as already suspected)
2. Undead, constructs and other nonhumanoids can't be held, i.e he's none of those.
3. Forgath casts CMW-- to heal himself since Kore can't be undead. Hopefully.
4. Held people can't speak, i.e. Kore is either a cheater, or--

Thunt has confirmed that the Hold Person spell is a physical binding rather than a paralysing force in his world. This affects points 2 and 4 of your theory Surran├│.

Given the spells more physical nature it is not unreasonable to assume that it could affect undead etc - so we can't really be sure that Kore isn't any of those things. I don't think he is - but we can't be sure of that based on the Hold Person spell. Equally (as THunt himself has said) the physical binding of the spell won't stop the target from talking if his mouth is protected by (for example) a helmet.

[RidcullyJack]

Equally (as THunt himself has said) the physical binding of the spell won't stop the target from talking if his mouth is protected by (for example) a helmet.

If being bounded by a Hold Person spell doesn't affect a helmet-wearing spellcaster's ability to cast spells, why don't we see all spellcasters wearing helmets, just in case?