1st November, 2013 - Sorry

[stevedj]

Someone started another thread suggesting people photoshop strips in an attempt to ... well, let's just say "change the humor". The thread seems to have fallen flat (in part because their redo's weren't all that funny). But it got me thinking about that idea. So, I did a little "rewrite" of my own, of this latest strip. But rather than feed that other, somewhat sour thread, I'm going to post it here.

I do so with the utmost respect for THunt. This is how I sure HOPE he is feeling right about now...

(spoilered because I don't know how to make it small enough for the always-visible guidelines for threads...)

► Show Spoiler

[LAYF]

HAHAHA.. this is great stevedj..
You mind linking it to Thunt on twitter? if you don't have twitter I can do it for you, with your permission that is... this is great...

[Wolfie]

nice one stevedj.

Although, I don't think THunt is actually going to apologize for this. It HAS been written for a long time now.

[Kitty Hamilton]

Oh, MinMax...

Once again THunt, you prove you are a master at story telling. Can't wait for the conclusion to this part of the storyline. I'm hoping Kin comes to her senses and Ruby gets a well deserved comeuppance. (Even though she was doing what she thought was right).

She's not doing what she thinks is right, she's doing what she can to gain control over Kin. She's behaving as though Kin is too stupid to make her own choices about how to live her life and deeming it her own responsibility to swoop in and save her from herself: classic controlling behavior. You can see her doing it here (http://www.goblinscomic.org/08302013/) when she's "willing" to risk Kin not regaining her tail because they don't completely understand the restoration device. Not that she's willing to advise Kin to avoid it, but that she is willing to make the decision for her.

There's no need to try to shove a character into pure black or pure white. She is doing what she thinks is right. She's experienced horrors at the hands of humans, and she wants this other version of herself not to be hurt or betrayed. But a pure motivation does not mean the action itself is morally pure.

[PatchworkBBC]

There's no need to try to shove a character into pure black or pure white. She is doing what she thinks is right. She's experienced horrors at the hands of humans, and she wants this other version of herself not to be hurt or betrayed. But a pure motivation does not mean the action itself is morally pure.

It's not pure black or white, but I don't think she's thinking about right or wrong. She's just so dead certain that she is correct that she's willing to manufacture a situation in order to prove it.

It's like this: say you've got a daughter in college and she's dating Todd. You don't know anything about Todd other than that he looks like a douche, but you don't like him anyways and tell your daughter that she shouldn't date him. She ignores your advice, so you plant some drugs in his car and call the cops. She comes crying to you about how you were right about Todd all along and that she'll listen to you the next time you weigh in on her business, and you pat yourself on the back for "saving" her. That's the same kind of "doing the right thing" that Ruby's doing.

[DrinksTooMuchCoffee]

Oh, one might even call it something like taking away someone's car keys who is too drunk to drive but insisting on it. Now you might say that's different in that the drunk person's judgment is impaired and so overriding their judgmemt is not so bad, but Ruby might also say that the necklace is impairing Kin's judgment (she may have even said just that). Obliviating the necklace may have precipitated the leash-grabbing incident, but it didn't actually make MinMax grab the leash (assuming the missing necklace didn't affect him). And so Ruby by attempting to spare Kin the inevitable betrayal she imagined did instigate such, but from some points of view is also right that MinMax would do so, seeing as he did. We could still also say that MinMax did not really betray Kin in the way Ruby anticipated, and so Ruby is wrong and also was a jerk.

[Kitty Hamilton]

There's no need to try to shove a character into pure black or pure white. She is doing what she thinks is right. She's experienced horrors at the hands of humans, and she wants this other version of herself not to be hurt or betrayed. But a pure motivation does not mean the action itself is morally pure.

It's not pure black or white, but I don't think she's thinking about right or wrong. She's just so dead certain that she is correct that she's willing to manufacture a situation in order to prove it.

It's like this: say you've got a daughter in college and she's dating Todd. You don't know anything about Todd other than that he looks like a douche, but you don't like him anyways and tell your daughter that she shouldn't date him. She ignores your advice, so you plant some drugs in his car and call the cops. She comes crying to you about how you were right about Todd all along and that she'll listen to you the next time you weigh in on her business, and you pat yourself on the back for "saving" her. That's the same kind of "doing the right thing" that Ruby's doing.

Buuuuuut Minmax wasn't FORCED to grab the collar. He made that choice of his own free will. Ruby erasing the necklace from existence affected Kin's feelings of trust in him, but not really Minmax. She never planted the equivalent of drugs on Minmax, or made it look like he had grabbed the leash when he really hadn't.

I don't think Ruby would have been able to figure out that erasing the necklace would cause the pair of them to have a fight that would culminate in Minmax grabbing Kin's leash. She probably just hoped that Kin's loss of trust would make her choose to split up with them.

[PatchworkBBC]

Oh, one might even call it something like taking away someone's car keys who is too drunk to drive but insisting on it. Now you might say that's different in that the drunk person's judgment is impaired and so overriding their judgmemt is not so bad, but Ruby might also say that the necklace is impairing Kin's judgment (she may have even said just that).

The one big important difference is that driving drunk imperils everyone around you, not just yourself. I'd equate it more to seatbelt laws: the only person endangered by not wearing a seatbelt is the person not wearing a seatbelt (or maybe some unlucky person that gets hit by their corpse as it flies through the windshield). It's taking away someone's ability to make decisions for their own good based on your own decision that they're not capable of making choices on their own. Another arguable difference is that drunk driving is objectively and demonstrably deadly, whereas someone from another reality entirely being in a relationship with a human from said reality is less so.

Buuuuuut Minmax wasn't FORCED to grab the collar. He made that choice of his own free will. Ruby erasing the necklace from existence affected Kin's feelings of trust in him, but not really Minmax. She never planted the equivalent of drugs on Minmax, or made it look like he had grabbed the leash when he really hadn't.

I don't think Ruby would have been able to figure out that erasing the necklace would cause the pair of them to have a fight that would culminate in Minmax grabbing Kin's leash. She probably just hoped that Kin's loss of trust would make her choose to split up with them.

It's not a perfect analogy, but Ruby didn't have to know that he would grab the leash, only that he would panic. She's a smart lass, and can pretty easily guess that when someone of Minmax's intellect panics, they tend to do stupid things, and that stupid thing is likely to create a rift between him and Kin. Granted, he did just about the worst possible thing, so he's not precisely blameless.

It's sort of like deliberately leaving an open bottle of liquor where you know a recovering alcoholic is going to find it. Sure, he may choose to pick up the drink, but you're deliberately setting him up to fail in the worst possible way.

I like me some analogies, if you haven't noticed.

[revskid]

LOVED the last panel. The emotion, his expression, the reflection. Everything was perfect! One of my all time favorites.

[Reads_Books]

nice one stevedj.

Although, I don't think THunt is actually going to apologize for this. It HAS been written for a long time now.

I agree with both Stevedj and Wolfie. I'm shocked at the very unThuntian reaction that the MoM storyline has produced. We've always had one or two people threatening to stop reading, but I saw that someone was actually trying to figure out how to cancel their Kickstarter order because they "don't like the characters anymore".

Remember, that the entire storyline for Goblins was written, beginning to end, long before Thunt ever started drawing. So complaining on a forum won't "change his mind". Plus, the fact that "Kin's story" is both true and based on a family member makes it very unlikely that Thunt will just magically "make everything better" so that the Shippers can have their Happy Ending.

I see this as the equivalent of walking out of a movie halfway through because you don't like what you've seen so far. Wait for the end, folks, before you start judging.

[Triffnix]

Although, I don't think THunt is actually going to apologize for this. It HAS been written for a long time now.

He is Canadian. He will apologize for anything.

Canadians are very polite.

[czarzhan]

I haven't read through the thread, but something that gives me hope in the Kin situation is that she'll join with the other Kins for at least one run-through, and the Maze reset will restore the necklace and other things lost to the ruptures. I would have thought them permanently lost, but then Forgath got his beard back even though it had been erased, so it's not completely irretrievable. Of course, if Kin used the teapot to send them on their way, she may have trouble finding them again and keeping hold of the teapot, but there are ways around that.

[Simon]

I haven't read through the thread, but something that gives me hope in the Kin situation is that she'll join with the other Kins for at least one run-through, and the Maze reset will restore the necklace and other things lost to the ruptures. I would have thought them permanently lost, but then Forgath got his beard back even though it had been erased, so it's not completely irretrievable. Of course, if Kin used the teapot to send them on their way, she may have trouble finding them again and keeping hold of the teapot, but there are ways around that.

I agree. Forgath's beard returning could be taken as a big hint towards the necklace coming back!
Edit: Just under two hours left. Hope the comic isn't delayed, I can't wait to see what happens!

[Reads_Books]

I haven't read through the thread, but something that gives me hope in the Kin situation is that she'll join with the other Kins for at least one run-through, and the Maze reset will restore the necklace and other things lost to the ruptures. I would have thought them permanently lost, but then Forgath got his beard back even though it had been erased, so it's not completely irretrievable. Of course, if Kin used the teapot to send them on their way, she may have trouble finding them again and keeping hold of the teapot, but there are ways around that.

I agree. Forgath's beard returning could be taken as a big hint towards the necklace coming back!
Edit: Just under two hours left. Hope the comic isn't delayed, I can't wait to see what happens!

Remember, Forgath's beard came back for the same reason that Kin's tail and MM's eye came back. Because of the Psi-gears machine. Not because of a normal Maze reeset. And because this new reset will be without PsiMax, it is possible that after the reset, the Psi-Gears machine won't exist. (Something the Kins might not have considered.)

[stevedj]

HAHAHA.. this is great stevedj..
You mind linking it to Thunt on twitter? if you don't have twitter I can do it for you, with your permission that is... this is great...

I've got twitter, but don't know how to "link" as you say. Do I just tweet the whole URL? (not the 'IMG' one in my post, but the regular http one?) Or is there some trick so that it will 'show up' in the twitter conversation automatically?

[Glemp]

HAHAHA.. this is great stevedj..
You mind linking it to Thunt on twitter? if you don't have twitter I can do it for you, with your permission that is... this is great...

I've got twitter, but don't know how to "link" as you say. Do I just tweet the whole URL? (not the 'IMG' one in my post, but the regular http one?) Or is there some trick so that it will 'show up' in the twitter conversation automatically?

There's an 'add photo' option next to the 'post tweet' button. I presume that that's what handles the previews.

[Gryphonic]

Too many people on this page (6) I could quote, but I'll just throw in my two cents on it.
Minmax did wrong, yes. I don't think that's in doubt. He had reasons, but that's not the same as excuses.
But that Minmax grabbed the leash has nothing to do with what Ruby did wrong, herself. The blame is not exclusive in this situation. Ruby intentionally interfered with Kin's free will by taking away her memory of the truth- and she knew the necklace was a key part of what Kin based her trust of Minmax on, because Kin said so. It wasn't a guess. http://www.goblinscomic.org/09042013/

Yes, she thought she was doing what was best for Kin. But very like Minmax's grabbing the leash - because HE wanted Kin to change her mind, too - it doesn't excuse her. I consider her guilty of the same violation (possibly worse, because with the leash Kin knows what's happening and can resist it later. This doesn't even allow that). She didn't make Minmax do anything. But she chose to do what was pretty certain to make Kin the way Ruby wanted her to be.

She's not doing what she thinks is right, she's doing what she can to gain control over Kin. She's behaving as though Kin is too stupid to make her own choices about how to live her life and deeming it her own responsibility to swoop in and save her from herself: classic controlling behavior. You can see her doing it here (http://www.goblinscomic.org/08302013/) when she's "willing" to risk Kin not regaining her tail because they don't completely understand the restoration device. Not that she's willing to advise Kin to avoid it, but that she is willing to make the decision for her.

That panel really bothered me too. The decision was not at all hers to make.

Mostly unrelated: a number of the Kins in MoM had a KEN necklace, but none of this trio do. Was that true of their backstories, or did Ruby "help" them too?

I'd actually find it hilarious if it was all

MM: Hi Names. *Draws Oblivious* Remember me?
[beat]
Thac0: KEEP GOING!
[GAP trample MM and Forgath in their mad rush to get as far away from Kore as possible.]

That's about what I'm picturing too.
With luck Minmax and Forgath will even take the next round of quarrels from Kore. It will at least encourage them to stand aside for the moment, if not actually help the GAP.

[Davis8488]

Mostly unrelated: a number of the Kins in MoM had a KEN necklace, but none of this trio do. Was that true of their backstories, or did Ruby "help" them too?

I hadn't thought of this, but find it highly likely, at least in the case of Onyx. I believe we saw Sapphire once before Ruby met her, and even with the necklace Sapphire would have forgotten where it came from when her Minmax died. Onyx however may have taken some convincing to abandon her comrades (if only upon reset) when she cared enough about them to bring Forgath's spider with her after their deaths. (Or maybe she just likes spiders and doesn't care about her party ever since the oblivion hole ate her necklace that she's never had.)

[PatchworkBBC]

Mostly unrelated: a number of the Kins in MoM had a KEN necklace, but none of this trio do. Was that true of their backstories, or did Ruby "help" them too?

I looked briefly and only found one (http://www.goblinscomic.org/07222011/) with a KEN necklace. Any others you can point to? I hadn't noticed any of them before, so it's kind of an Easter egg hunt

[Gryphonic]

http://www.goblinscomic.org/06142011/ reality 88
http://www.goblinscomic.org/07222011/ as you posted
Hmm. I was positive I had seen another in one of the big mass-combat scenes, but I can't find it right now. And I thought only after I skimmed through that some realities' versions might not have been necklaces, but some other ornament. I'll look again after I've slept.
Anyway, since at least two realities besides 156 had them, it wasn't a unique event. There are lots of other Kins running (slithering) around we never got to see at the right size or angle to check. Whatever prompted the giving of a KEN necklace to those two examples, Psimax said it never developed into love in their realities, so the necklace's appearance does not require 156's KinMax romance. Just friendship, I assume.

[AntMac]

There's no need to try to shove a character into pure black or pure white. She is doing what she thinks is right. She's experienced horrors at the hands of humans, and she wants this other version of herself not to be hurt or betrayed. But a pure motivation does not mean the action itself is morally pure.

It's not pure black or white, but I don't think she's thinking about right or wrong. She's just so dead certain that she is correct that she's willing to manufacture a situation in order to prove it.

It's like this: say you've got a daughter in college and she's dating Todd. You don't know anything about Todd other than that he looks like a douche, but you don't like him anyways and tell your daughter that she shouldn't date him. She ignores your advice, so you plant some drugs in his car and call the cops. She comes crying to you about how you were right about Todd all along and that she'll listen to you the next time you weigh in on her business, and you pat yourself on the back for "saving" her. That's the same kind of "doing the right thing" that Ruby's doing.

Only the same thing if, just after you plant the drugs, Todd, by his own behaviour, shows he already was a drug user, and so proves your suspicions correct. Because MinMax , though he had been making heroic efforts to change, actually was the sort of guy once that Ruby guessed he was, a brute, and when he was in distress, grabbed a rope tied around Kins throat. She was right, in essence.

[PatchworkBBC]

Only the same thing if, just after you plant the drugs, Todd, by his own behaviour, shows he already was a drug user, and so proves your suspicions correct. Because MinMax , though he had been making heroic efforts to change, actually was the sort of guy once that Ruby guessed he was, a brute, and when he was in distress, grabbed a rope tied around Kins throat. She was right, in essence.

More like Todd was a recovering drug user, found the drugs, succumbed, and was high when the cops found him.

Or better yet, look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_v._United_States for an example.

[AntMac]

Only the same thing if, just after you plant the drugs, Todd, by his own behaviour, shows he already was a drug user, and so proves your suspicions correct. Because MinMax , though he had been making heroic efforts to change, actually was the sort of guy once that Ruby guessed he was, a brute, and when he was in distress, grabbed a rope tied around Kins throat. She was right, in essence.

More like Todd was a recovering drug user, found the drugs, succumbed, and was high when the cops found him.

Or better yet, look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_v._United_States for an example.

Yes, you are quite right, that is a considerably better worded analogy then I made.
Ruby was at fault for, re your analogy, putting "the drugs" there, but also right in that she was warning Kin "He will use drugs, to your harm". Of course, her bigotry stems from something like "All those men are druggies" so her reasoning is based on shaky premises, but it is hard to forget that actually she was right. For all his progress as a better man, he was tempted and he fell.
I think Ruby thinks all Kins ought to avoid all Men, because the potential for good is tiny, and the potential for evil, so proven by experience.

[PatchworkBBC]

Yes, you are quite right, that is a considerably better worded analogy then I made.
Ruby was at fault for, re your analogy, putting "the drugs" there, but also right in that she was warning Kin "He will use drugs, to your harm". Of course, her bigotry stems from something like "All those men are druggies" so her reasoning is based on shaky premises, but it is hard to forget that actually she was right. For all his progress as a better man, he was tempted and he fell.
I think Ruby thinks all Kins ought to avoid all Men, because the potential for good is tiny, and the potential for evil, so proven by experience.

Minmax is certainly not blameless, I agree, but in my analogy she didn't just plant the drugs, she had to break the law in order to acquire them in the first place.

Minmax and Ruby both violated Kin, but I find four key differences between them:
1) Minmax's violation was visible, while Ruby's violation was not
2) Minmax's violation was done in the heat of the moment, while Ruby's violation was premeditated (if these were acts of murder committed in the United States, Minmax would have committed voluntary manslaughter and Ruby first degree murder)
3) Minmax's violation was short term and made no lasting change to Kin (she's not still stopped and listening), while Ruby's violation is quite possibly--and probably--permanent
4) Minmax's violation was instigated by the Ruby's violation of Kin (and arguably of him as well), while Ruby's was instigated by her own logical fallacy (composition)

Furthermore, I repeat my assertion that Ruby was not acting for Kin's sake but for her own. We've already seen her willingness to assume that she has the right to make HUGE decisions for others that would not normally be considered subject to that sort of authority. When this sort of behavior is seen in real life, it's usually in the context of an abusive relationship, and the lengths to which abusers will go to keep their victims under control is well known. Kin has challenged Ruby's supposed authority over her three times now--once when she regrew her tail, twice when she accused Ruby of "picking at an infected wound," and a final time by turning down Ruby's offer to join their group--and that cannot stand in Ruby's mind; Kin must be brought to heel.