Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by AntMac » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:29 am

Davis8488 wrote: (for anonymity I'll call her Wonderful)
o:) :D Good on ya, Mate, you good thing you.

Listen, you would be perfectly right , in the best of all possible worlds. Both sides would be required to provide reasons, and speak gently and be reasonable.

But in this, our very misshapen world, where men routinely dominate the women that are in relationships with them, women have reason to FEAR the situation Kin found herself in. Even in a nascent love affair of only a few days or weeks, many times, the man has built up this expectation of what he is now entitled to, and when the woman decides being with him was a mistake, he won't accept it. He wants to talk about why she is wrong, INSISTS on it in fact. And do you know how the woman first becomes aware she is in danger?.

It isn't a magic collar, or even a rope around her neck, mate.

It is when she, probably hesitantly because she too labours under the culture wide assumption of male entitlement, comes to the man and says "I am really not happy being with you any more, I want to leave" , and he doesn't look sad . . . he frowns.

Is this going to be a threat, is he going to tell her she isn't , is never leaving him, "If I can't have you, no one will" murder/suicide, is he even going to accept that she is entitled to say it?. "You are just over-wrought". All women fear this happening, half expect it to happen, have had girlfriends some part of it has happened to. And it only happens when the person on the receiving end of the bad news, almost always male, has an over inflated sense of their own entitlement. As far too many men do in even our present enlightened culture, let alone one of the macho ones.

I too have had a fianc├® tell me over the phone, hesitantly, sadly, "I don't think I can marry you any more". I answered, "Then we couldn't possibly be married" because, OF COURSE there is no point in telling someone who has worked themselves up to the brave point of saying such a thing "I don't want to hear that". TOO BAD, so sad, they didn't just suddenly on a whim decide this, end of discussion.

And actually in Kins world, she has been kept a sex-slave by a person not her own species, but MinMaxs species, just weeks ago. All her experience would have been saying "Don't be silly, this isn't a potential co-see-ee at all. It is a probable bully, a potential slaver" and then the whole Grabs Rope About Neck Thing ( henceforth GRANT for my selfish ease ) has proven to her that her reluctance was correct.

And so she says to him "I think you should leave" *unspoken component of sentence, you are guilty of GRANT*. What is any possible response of his but *guilty of GRANT* "I am sad now, but, OK then, goodbye"

WHY for goodness sake would any woman want to hang around explaining herself?. They are in danger when they do, and actually, most men would disdain to explain themselves in the same situation. "There is no point talking about it, I made up my mind".

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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by Sessine » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:48 am

I've been trying to stay out of this, but... AntMac, I respect that you feel strongly about this. You are trying to bend over backwards to be decent, and it does you credit. But you are not a woman. You have done your best to imagine how "women" would feel -- but then you're projecting this imagined response on all women, and it just doesn't work that way. Women are as different from each other as men are. We don't all have the same experiences. We don't all have the same attitudes. Or fears, or insecurities, or overcompensations... honestly, we're really not cookie-cutter copies of each other, not even a little bit.

For what it's worth, I am old enough to remember when serious articles in Chatelaine debated whether women ought to have careers. There is still a significant residue of male privilege embedded in our society. Good for you, that you are earnestly trying to reduce it. Still, things are a hell of a lot better than they used to be, and they are still improving.

But that's about society's rules and customs. Individual interactions aren't about rules. They're about individuals.

Over the years, I have definitely thought about this sufficiently to form an opinion. Here it is: Women are people. Men are people. People can't be expected to be perfect. What we can expect is that people, both men and women, should try their best, and keep on trying their best, to treat others with respect. (I have further come to the conclusion that you don't get out of this responsibility just because someone else is currently failing to live up to it.)

There's a reason many breakups involve some pleading. It has nothing to do with male privilege, and everything to do with the tendency of all human beings to try desperately to save something we care about. If we can shrug it off as a mere disappointment, then we weren't in love. It doesn't feel like a commonplace when it's happening to you -- it's more like the end of the world.

I don't think it's at all fair to compare MinMax to those two complete assholes you cite. Moreover, I'm pretty sure Kin wouldn't think it a fair comparison, either.
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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by Simon » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:02 am

Well, all I can say is that I respect everyone's opinions and everything, but I don't necessarily agree that everything is exactly as everyone has said it is.
(and a quick message, I don't know whether this topic is becoming somewhat controversial, so I'm just saying we may need to be careful).

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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by Gryphonic » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:04 am

@AntMac:
Well, if you're as thick-skinned in online debates as you're saying (which is admirable, and prevents flame wars), I admit I toned down my post several times before submitting. I dislike arguments. But the first comparison that came to mind is that your sweeping condemnations of men was hitting the same vibe as Ruby's statements about humans. And that attitude's just not right, no matter what demographic and situation in life you look at. I'm going to paraphrase one of my favorite Dresden Files quotes: As a whole, people suck. But as individuals, they don't.
AntMac wrote: men are clamouring "OH NOES, she is being SO UNFAIR to MinMax, he doesn't want her to leave" . . . and I am the only man who thinks it is worth fighting for her to have the same perceived rights that every male here would insist on . . . Yeah, forgive me for pointing out that they are guilty as charged.
.....
I think I am the only man here who has raised his voice against people who are, in effect, arguing for their right ( through their representative MinMax) to these male privileges !.
If you took a poll of the posters' genders vs opinions here, I'm confident you would be less boastful of that moral superiority.
AntMac wrote: I simply think you are wrong about this subject, ok?. I am sure in my own mind it is because you have not had a lot of experience, and/or thought deeply enough on the topic.
Look, no one's experience discredits another's. What Davis8488, and I, and anyone else on the forums has lived through does not make your experiences less true, but the same goes in reverse.

I'm going to try and stick to discussion of the comic, because post chains that head into generalizations and strawman arguments don't get much resolved around here.
I don't think I've seen anyone saying that Minmax's grabbing the leash was perfectly fine. We've debated what was going through his head, we've made comparisons of him and Ruby and Dellyn, and much of this current thread has been about the shifting balance of power between Kin and Minmax and who's more in the wrong or right, before it wandered off into nonidentical real-world comparisons.

Minmax screwed up. In the very worst way he could have. As I've said in another thread, that I can understand why he did it makes it no less wrong. He also appears to be genuinely sorry. Even Kin acknowledges it on this page. It by no means absolves him of his crime. But I also, even though I'm a woman, do not consider him a wholly despicable human being. Because people do not follow the same path their whole lives. Minmax is a very different person now that he was at the start of the comic. It was only days ago for him that he stopped assuming monsters were for killing. He still committed genocide in his first story arc, and that he can never undo. But doing so has not made him the same way for the rest of his life, because he came to know a monster as an individual and fell in love with her.
And now he's absolutely betrayed her trust. He can never undo that either, but he's not doomed to make that mistake the rest of his life. He may never recover what he had with Kin - and while I hope she forgives him someday, she's under no obligation to do so.
But he freely admits he made a mistake, and that is the way people begin to improve on what they used to be. I am not willing to condemn him for the rest of his life. There is no way to erase bad choices, but people can learn from and avoid repeating them. Everyone has done something they wish they could have done better, big or small. Kin herself is very generously giving him another chance to respect her. It doesn't mean she forgives him, but I also don't think she sees him as an irredeemable monster or she wouldn't have bothered dealing with him at all; just sent the cups through Forgath.

The very original, founding premise of Goblins was "Life Through Their Eyes." Seeing life through someone else's point of view. That prejudice against groups is wrong, and individuals should be taken on their own merit. THunt has been even-handed in this, in that there are bad goblins in the realm - looking at you, militant Viper racists...and there was at least one exception even there - and Ears, Thaco, and Chief all separately acknowledge that not all the humans in Brassmoon were evil. In fact, most weren't; they were just people defending their home and afraid of what they mistakenly believed was a threat. I find it a pity that you can enjoy this comic but still address the world with the same attitude the story is against.

ETA: Well said, Sessine, in all points.
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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by Gryphonic » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:23 am

AntMac wrote:WHY for goodness sake would any woman want to hang around explaining herself?. They are in danger when they do, and actually, most men would disdain to explain themselves in the same situation. "There is no point talking about it, I made up my mind".
For our own self-respect, not to go cowering through life for fear of what MIGHT be. Is this what you think women should do? I'm proud of Kin for her vow not to run away, but to face her troubles head on. Some have said she was 'running away' from Minmax after punching him, and momentarily she was. Nobody completely lives up to what they want to be. But she's facing him now, when she could have made Forgath her only contact.
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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by Davis8488 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:48 am

Antmac, perhaps I retain too much of the idealism of youth yet. To be honest, I don't know whether that possibility makes me feel better about myself or worse about the world.
I don't believe all men are scum who would assault a woman; I don't even believe it of most men. Perhaps I am wrong, and women in general have a legitimate reason to fear the monsters they are forced to surround themselves with.

I still do contend that Minmax's only wrong action was GRANT, which amounts to a restraining assault. Now that he has done that it is right for her to coerce him into parting ways, but to do so before that without explanation wasn't fair to him. Remember that Minmax is mentally and emotionally little more developed than a child. He isn't built to be able to handle that sort of situation, and Kin knew this about him.
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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by PoisonSymic » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:51 am

Nerre wrote:Insist is not crossing a line. They can insist as much as they want, it is not crossing the line, as it is only words the other can ignore (unlike you see more in that word than my translation). If the start to force it upon the other, it is crossing the line for me.
Then you're willfully ignoring the fact that MinMax already irrevocably crossed that line by using the control collar to force Kin to stop. She might be able to forgive him for that, but she can never really trust him again -- he not only physically assaulted her, he utterly betrayed her by doing the the one thing in the entire universe that is most psychologically traumatic to her.
The second point you quoted was about simply accepting that the other partner wants to split right away, not about accepting it (or not) in the end, after some time. In the first moment, the partner who did not quit should have at least a chance to convinve the other. Anything else is against human nature.
There's a huge difference between "not giving up" and trying to physically prevent the other person from leaving.

Not giving up in a non-abusive manner involves being willing to let your ex-partner have the space they need now, and not coming back later when they're ready to consider giving you another chance. It's also being willing to accept that they might not give you another chance, and that they have every right not to even if you "did nothing wrong". You don't have a right to a relationship.
About the third point, he wrote that anybody who does not accept the split immediately is a bad person, which was just not right. Think about romantic movies. Some appear as very good persons and partners in the end just cause they did NOT immediately give up.
Romantic movies are pretty much the opposite of reality.
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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by PoisonSymic » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:00 am

Gryphonic wrote:
AntMac wrote:WHY for goodness sake would any woman want to hang around explaining herself?. They are in danger when they do, and actually, most men would disdain to explain themselves in the same situation. "There is no point talking about it, I made up my mind".
For our own self-respect, not to go cowering through life for fear of what MIGHT be. Is this what you think women should do? I'm proud of Kin for her vow not to run away, but to face her troubles head on. Some have said she was 'running away' from Minmax after punching him, and momentarily she was. Nobody completely lives up to what they want to be. But she's facing him now, when she could have made Forgath her only contact.
There is no might about Minmax being a threat to Kin's safety; he just fucking proved it beyond the shadow of any doubt, literally only minutes before. She's responding to his betrayal as rationally as she possibly can; she's ensuring her safety from further attacks before thinking about what exactly went wrong. That's exactly the right thing to do -- you protect yourself first, THEN you figure out what the hell just happened, and MAYBE you choose to give the guy a second chance. But you definitely, absolutely, positively ensure your own safety first. Either he leaves, or you leave.

Confronting your abuser is something you do when you feel ready and willing for it, not something that is a moral prerequisite to leaving an abusive relationship.The idea that you have to give an abuser a chance to salvage the relationship himself is exactly how the cycle of abuse works.

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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by Gryphonic » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:15 am

@ PoisonSymic: In that post, I was responding to our more abstract real-world discussion, before bringing it back to Kin and Minmax. And Kin has clearly decided to face Minmax, of her own will, and it's her choice, not ours, to decide when she's ready.

And I never said someone is required to challenge an abusive partner, or give them a second chance. I was objecting to AntMac's implication that women should always run away from men, because men are guaranteed to turn violent when thwarted. He asked why someone would not do so, and I answered what I did because, like Kin was already beginning to do before Minmax and Forgath rescued her, I want to be in control of my own life. Not be ruled by hypotheticals, because then I wouldn't do anything at all. If a woman feels her ex-partner is physically dangerous, yes, it's basic common sense not to deliberately put herself at risk. But AntMac was making it sound like women should never do anything else, no matter who the man is, and I disagree.
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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by PoisonSymic » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:29 am

Gryphonic wrote:@ PoisonSymic: In that post, I was responding to our more abstract real-world discussion, before bringing it back to Kin and Minmax. And Kin has clearly decided to face Minmax, of her own will, and it's her choice, not ours, to decide when she's ready.
I would say she doesn't actually have a choice, because the only way to get him away from her is to give him and Forgath the tea and explain how to use it. She's not choosing to let him stay and talk to her; she's telling him in no uncertain terms to go away. MinMax is being given a choice of either respecting her wishes or not, but that choice is inherent to the only means of transportation available; it's not a choice Kin chose to offer.
And I never said someone is required to challenge an abusive partner, or give them a second chance. I was objecting to AntMac's implication that women should always run away from men, because men are guaranteed to turn violent when thwarted. He asked why someone would not do so, and I answered what I did because, like Kin was already beginning to do before Minmax and Forgath rescued her, I want to be in control of my own life. Not be ruled by hypotheticals, because then I wouldn't do anything at all. If a woman feels her ex-partner is physically dangerous, yes, it's basic common sense not to deliberately put yourself at risk. But AntMac was making it sound like women should never do anything else, no matter who the man is, and I disagree.
Then you're failing to distinguish between "abruptly breaking up a previously healthy, normal relationship" and "finally scraping up the courage and will to end a toxic, abusive relationship". It is a statistically verifiable fact that an extremely high percentage of abusive partners will resort to violence if they find out their victim is leaving or planning to leave; that is why it's crucially important for victims to leave NOW and think about it later.

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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by Gryphonic » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:42 am

Read my earlier posts, then. I said she's come to address them in person, whereas just after the leash-grabbing she talking to Forgath in another room from Minmax. She could have handed Forgath both cups and sent him out instead, but she brought them in person. And she told him to go away. She could also have left those rooms entirely and gone to the Kinship for their protection. She didn't, and that's also her choice.
And I think you are failing to follow what our disagreement was about: that yes, there is a difference between the two. I feel that AntMac has been speaking as though ALL relationships with men are likely to turn into the 'toxic, abusive' ones. I am very aware of the difference. I thought I said so clearly in the last two sentences.

Enough, goodnight, and continue in the morning. Welcome to the forums, by the way.
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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by JessicaB » Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:38 am

I've been lurking, following this thread for a few days and debating getting involved. I'm not good with forum stuff, so I hope folks will understand if I don't try and use quotes or get names mixed up.

i'm seeing a repeat of a lot of discussions I've taken part in, and I think it's largely a matter folks talking past each other on some important points of perspective.

i think AntMac is talking from the perspective of what I would call "Dealing with men is Russian roulette." i'm not trying to speak for all women, but I can speak for the many women who have written on this issue, discussed it in chat rooms, and etc. Everytime I deal with a man, I am playing a game of Russian roulette. Most men are good, decent, awesome people. But some aren't. And the not-good men don't wear signs announcing "I'm an abusive-rapey-asshole, so stay away from me." In fact, the not-good men go out of their way to be charming, persausive, and make everyone think that they ARE good men. Every single time I talk to a strange man, i am gambling that they are a decent guy, and not a creepy stalker type that is going to become obsessed with me because I said 'hi' to him on the subway. Russian roulette--most of 'chambers' are empty, but I can'tknow until I 'pull the trigger.' The guy who offered to give me a ride home the other day was PROBABLY just a friendly person looking to save me a 2 mile walk--but he might not have been. And be honest--if I had gotten in with him, and he had been a freaky axe murder, the response from the media would have been how I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER than to get in the car with a strange man--basically that I should have ASSUMED that he was an axe murder, and by assuming that he was a decent guy it was my fault I got killed.

This is the double standard women live with--folks like those on this forums saying that it is wrong to assume every man is 'toxic, abusive,' and the folks who blame us when we assume a man is decent and guess wrong. Now, being in a relationship is a bit different, in that the person you are in a relationship with isn't a stranger. HOPEFULLY you've been paying attention and know them well enough to know if they are a good guy or not. But when you got in a relationship with them you were playing Russian roulette. By the time you know for certain whether you are dating a good guy or a not-good guy, you are already dating them. And even then, someone who seemed totally decent during a relationship can flip out when you try to leave. So again, its Russian roulette.

So no, I don't think that AntMac is saying tht all men in all relationships are likely to turn toxic and abusive. I do think he is saying that a person (man or woman) can't know if it is safe to leave a relationship UNTIL THEY LEAVE. And because they can't know until they leave if it is safe, they have to assume it is UNSAFE until proven otherwise.

As far as MinMax/Kin, looking at it from both of their perspectives:

Kin-he grabbed the leash. he says he didn't mean it, says he won't do it again, but she has no reason to believe him. After all, he did it once.best thing to do is protect herself. Get him out of here so she'll know she's safe and can't try to control her again. Any other option is too dangerous.

MinMax-it was a mistake, i panicked. i'm a fucking idiot, but why can't she see that it was a mistake. oh god, lease give me another chance!

i applaud THunt taking on an aspect of abuse that is almost never touched on-the abuser who becomes an abuser by accident*. It is very easy for us, as readers, to understand MinMax's view-we know that MinMax is a good guy, and we've all been the people who made a stupid mistake and had to find someway to make it right. Thankfully, few us have been in a position where someone we had no reason to trust threatened us and left us in fear for our lives. We KNOW Kin can trust MinMax, but she doesn't. All she knows is that the one time she stated her needs, he ignored them and forced her to do things his way. From that perspective, her response is completely understandable--there is no 'relationship' here as far as she is concerned, just an ally-of-convience who has proven she can't trust him.

I can, and do, empathize with MinMax. I want tosee MinMax and Kin together. But if I were in Kin's shoves? I'd do the same thing. I'd bring him the tea myself, because I wouldn't cower, but be damned if I'd give him a second chance, he had his chance and what if next time he didn't give the leash back?

*for more on WHY I think THunt's writing an accidental abuser arc is important: http://fantasyforthekinky.wordpress.com ... sacrifice/
Do not read the associated story unless you have a strong stomach.

ETA: Apologies if it seems like I am saying that only men are abusers or only women need to fear abuse. I focus on men here 1)because women have been and are taught to fear all men as potential abusers/rapists, where men are not taught to fear abuse and/or rape from anyone; and 2) because statistically abusers and rapists are more likely to be men. This does not mean taht men can't be abused (by women or other men) or that women can't be abusers. A man plays the same game of Russian roulette everytime they get into a relationship. Their odds are a bit better, but the game is the same.

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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by WastesTime » Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:38 am

By the gods! It's only 7 and a half hours before we see goblins in Goblins... it has been almost three years since the last time we've seen them! Can't wait!
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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by Jochi » Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:18 am

I apologize, sincerely, for the heavy role I played in getting this started. My intent, originally, was to point out the irony of the reversal of control in the dynamic between Minmax and Kin. In doing so, I used the phrase 'exactly the same', by which I meant to emphasize the similarities in the reflection, not equate them on a moral level. And, as a result, we now have people equating other things that are fundamentally not the same, often in consecutive sentences. I refrain from giving examples, but I don't really need to. This is not right, and the people doing it are smart enough to know it.
When I used the stock phrase "Payback's a bitch", I expected people to object to the last word because, well, because Kin happens to be female, even though I was sure the context made it clear the word didn't refer to her directly and had nothing to do with gender in that phrase. I was prepared for that. I did NOT expect people to object to the word "payback" (tit-for-tat, eye-for-an-eye, justice, whatever). Especially in both directions.
These things are making some of us forget that we are, if not friends, at least friendly acquaintances, deserving of respect. Accusing people of immaturity, of lack of experience or depth of thought or compassion, on and on, just because they do not share your opinion, is not right. There are people in this world who have thought long and hard on various subjects and arrived at conclusions that are well thought out, logically consistent, widely applicable and utterly insane. Because the precepts they started with were flawed. Length or depth of thought does not equal truth. Aristotle's worldview was wonderfully well thought out, but crumbled under later testing.
For my part in getting it started, I am sorry. Which is both true, and I expect to have about as much effect as Minmax's apology did.

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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by PatchworkBBC » Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:48 am

JessicaB wrote:I think AntMac is talking from the perspective of what I would call "Dealing with men is Russian roulette." i'm not trying to speak for all women, but I can speak for the many women who have written on this issue, discussed it in chat rooms, and etc. Everytime I deal with a man, I am playing a game of Russian roulette. Most men are good, decent, awesome people. But some aren't. And the not-good men don't wear signs announcing "I'm an abusive-rapey-asshole, so stay away from me." In fact, the not-good men go out of their way to be charming, persausive, and make everyone think that they ARE good men. Every single time I talk to a strange man, i am gambling that they are a decent guy, and not a creepy stalker type that is going to become obsessed with me because I said 'hi' to him on the subway. Russian roulette--most of 'chambers' are empty, but I can'tknow until I 'pull the trigger.' The guy who offered to give me a ride home the other day was PROBABLY just a friendly person looking to save me a 2 mile walk--but he might not have been. And be honest--if I had gotten in with him, and he had been a freaky axe murder, the response from the media would have been how I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER than to get in the car with a strange man--basically that I should have ASSUMED that he was an axe murder, and by assuming that he was a decent guy it was my fault I got killed.

This is the double standard women live with--folks like those on this forums saying that it is wrong to assume every man is 'toxic, abusive,' and the folks who blame us when we assume a man is decent and guess wrong. Now, being in a relationship is a bit different, in that the person you are in a relationship with isn't a stranger. HOPEFULLY you've been paying attention and know them well enough to know if they are a good guy or not. But when you got in a relationship with them you were playing Russian roulette. By the time you know for certain whether you are dating a good guy or a not-good guy, you are already dating them. And even then, someone who seemed totally decent during a relationship can flip out when you try to leave. So again, its Russian roulette.
Your Russian roulette analogy is interesting, but flawed in that it only goes in one direction. Really, it ought to be that "dealing with anyone is Russian roulette," because... well, it's true. Men pose an obvious physical threat to women; I'm not in fantastic shape, but I wouldn't bet against me in a physical altercation with any of the women I know--many of whom are in fantastic shape--by virtue of my inherent size and strength. Women, on the other hand pose a more insidious threat. Case in point: I'm one of those rare male nursing students, and right now I'm in the middle of my maternity class. While I'm at clinicals over at the hospital, I am partnered with one of the female students for patient interaction--not for their protection, but for mine. Societally, we don't really have a consistent reaction to allegations of rape/sexual misconduct: sometimes we have Steubenville, sometimes we have Duke Lacrosse.

I'm being a bit rambly, so I'll just sum it up here: I'm tired of being treated as though I always need witnesses. There's more than one double standard.

EDIT: Also, violence against men is funny. Forgot about that one.

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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by Gryphonic » Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:19 pm

I also apologize if I have escalated this. In my last post I spoke more strongly about AntMac than I had meant to (And more than I believe to be true of him, in that very last reference), and I've tried to be considerate in disagreeing that I might be taking things not as someone meant them.
All I can say at this point is it was very late for me, I was frustrated at feeling like retreading the same topic for several pages, and I should have walked away from the computer at that point. I don't like confrontation, I don't like to think that I provoked one, and I lay awake last night thinking about this thread and if I should add a retraction or simply delete all my posts and get out of it.
I hope no one (specifically AntMac) takes personal offense at anything I've written back, because that was never my intent.

@JessicaB: good post, and welcome!

@Jochi: well, that's the fun and danger of speaking on the internet. You never know how someone's going to take your words, or where it's going to go once you've logged off. The unwatched pot boils very rapidly!
:roll:
Image Joiiiiiin ussssssss.....

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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by Simon » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:12 pm

Anyway, about one hour left.
Goblin's practically confirmed for next update. I wonder whether they'll appear near the start or the end of the next comic:
What I mean is whether Minmax 'teaports' in the first panel and ends up on the bridge for the rest, or whether they stay in the maze until the last panel and we don't see much of the goblins 'til next week.

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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by AntMac » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:16 pm

The subject is so important, and it is the ( imo ) duty of everyone to work till it is corrected. Some of you have said something about worrying about my reaction to your opinions etc, and just to make it clear, my opinion isn't being held or protected in this, for the sake of my ego. Fire away, you have my :lovingkindness: absolutely understanding and permission, to work out the powerful feelings the topic carries, OUGHT to carry, on my ego, if that will help you think a little about the real ramifications of the subject.

And Sessine, Gryphonic, I do tend to talk in absolutes, generalisations, on the topic, but this is because I am talking about absolutes and general matters. It doesn't matter what an individual man you and I know does, except to himself and the people he interacts with, because the entire culture is hedged around with conscious and unconscious privilege for men and restriction for women.
We saw a perfectly clear proof of this when so very many people complained with such feeling about Kin "being so mean and unforgivable as to dare expect a bully to leave her" :roll: . In their minds, consciously or otherwise, his wishes out-weighed her right to have him leave so he couldn't brutalise her again. And they explicitly coached their justifications in terms magnifying his wishes and diminishing her concerns. They literally equated his instinctive urge to coerce her compliance to his will with her (absolutely understandable) fearful urge to compel him to leave her in peace.
And they are not equal. People trying to say, believing, they are equal are the enemies of equality

And actually I have not tried to say how any particular woman thinks, Sessine. I have said things like "WHY for goodness sake would any woman want to hang around explaining herself?" (to a man who has just brutalised her) but that isn't actually saying what she does, or should think, it is asking why she would do something probably dangerous, asking WHY would she want to?, cause, you know what is in it for her?. And more to the point, if she just once forms the feeling that she ought not, for her peace of mind, or safety or whatever reason she feels is important, what selfish consideration of the man ought to be taken into account ( hint, I believe NO selfish consideration of the man counts) and what sort of man puts his peace of mind in first place over hers?. Clearly a selfish and a dangerous kind of man, the very one who probably will try to "insist" as our friend so obviously makes clear with his revelatory post. Insist, mind you, while considering something called "Customary Rights" :roll:

I suggest a new kind of customary right, for decent societies. It's pretty simple. See if it is too simple, maybe I am confused or something.

When a woman says she wants to leave, the man remembers the past, with its "women as chattel, women not allowed bank accounts to hold them in the mans power, women having to quit their employment when married to keep them in the mans power" etc etc, and he swallows his distress and says "Sure, here are the keys to the car, will you contact me so we can talk about this, once you feel you can?. I'm so sorry that you feel this way . . . please consider my feelings too". *goes out the door, away, away, away*

Individual men and women might be handling themselves in a way that, for them, negates sexism. I know I try to, Sessine tells us most of the men she knows do, all that is so obvious I didn't feel I needed to say it. That is specifics.

Here is the general case I make. Until it is a simple matter of fact that no group of us contains a large proportion of people who will cry out for male privilege to be acceptable even in a story, I hold that all men are responsible for it. Stories, after all, being how we transmit our good and our bad memes, how the girls get told that their job is to be a reward for the boys, youngest prince does marvellous feat and gets the kings daughter, MinMaxs save Kins a few times and get a pass-card for casual impulsive brutality.

Just because I, or some other man is conscious of it, and working against it as he can, doesn't make him not responsible for it, that is too easy an out.

all in my humble opinion, friends. ;)

Edit to add this.
PoisonSymic wrote:Confronting your abuser is something you do when you feel ready and willing for it, not something that is a moral prerequisite to leaving an abusive relationship.The idea that you have to give an abuser a chance to salvage the relationship himself is exactly how the cycle of abuse works.
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

Edit to add, almost certainly superfluously, of course, :P Hi JessicaB, thank you for making that post, I have been trying to say something like that, but you made it look easy. And yes, I am aware of how I sometimes risk implying that "Women who don't protect themselves almost paranoid-ly, are to blame for their abuse" when I say something like "WHY for goodness sake would any woman want to hang around explaining herself?". I do try to consider these faults and not commit them, but I am human, I err.

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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by Simon » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:22 pm

I honestly think this would be better discussed in "Controversy!" or somewhere. I can't think of any way to phrase anything without further inflaming things :\
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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by Davis8488 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:22 pm

AntMac wrote: When a woman says she wants to leave, the man remembers the past, with its "women as chattel, women not allowed bank accounts to hold them in the mans power, women having to quit their employment when married to keep them in the mans power" etc etc, and he swallows his distress and says "Sure, here are the keys to the car, will you contact me so we can talk about this, once you feel you can?. I'm so sorry that you feel this way . . . please consider my feelings too". *goes out the door, away, away, away*
(Emphasis mine)


Antmac, I feel like this is a shift from your original stated stance. While I am unwilling to say that a man should always be the one to leave the home in every case of ended cohabitation, this apparent change in stance brings you and I very close to perfect agreement.
CarvesAPumpkin, Level 3 Defender in Capture the Flag

If anything I say offends you I am sorry. It is likely late and I am tired, or I'm upset and I am not thinking straight, and though I sincerely wish I could, I can't express myself in such a way that helps you be less of a crybaby.
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Re: Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

Post by AntMac » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:06 am

Davis8488 wrote:
AntMac wrote: When a woman says she wants to leave, the man remembers the past, with its "women as chattel, women not allowed bank accounts to hold them in the mans power, women having to quit their employment when married to keep them in the mans power" etc etc, and he swallows his distress and says "Sure, here are the keys to the car, will you contact me so we can talk about this, once you feel you can?. I'm so sorry that you feel this way . . . please consider my feelings too". *goes out the door, away, away, away*
(Emphasis mine)


Antmac, I feel like this is a shift from your original stated stance. While I am unwilling to say that a man should always be the one to leave the home in every case of ended cohabitation, this apparent change in stance brings you and I very close to perfect agreement.
Dude, you and me are in perfect agreement, you realise?. I never said you, yourself, were any kind of opponent in fact or spirit to me, haven't thought it, am aware you are a normal guy, trying to do the right thing.

The only opposition between us is we are immersed in a culture where all sorts of horrible things are the result of cultural blind spots, and while you might be aware of it, it isn't the same importance to you as it is to me. It isn't something you consider when you write, maybe, or didn't consider that one time, probably.

The passage you quote there was my idea of what we ought to be aiming at. It wasn't actually a change in my appraisal of the situation we face at present in much of the worlds culture. It was a hopeful outline of where we might get, with luck.
It would be the sort of society where the female knows, feels, believes in her heart and soul, that the MALE thinks she is his equal and the cultural assumptions reinforce that feeling in his being, and all his male friends expect it of him . . . and so she doesn't feel apprehensive the morning, for whatever reason, that she wakes and wants to leave. Knows that he is going to simply agree with her wish, and she will be free to go. or to stay, without the smallest fear of him bullying her.

And I am pretty confident that that is how you would conduct yourself now, was aware that you are not a bully. So we probably are/were in complete agreement, all a long, mate. :)

Lots of you young men are, if we are to measure your performance against my generation at twenty, your cultural assumptions are almost as pure as the driven snow.

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