Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

[brennan998]

So, I'm a little late to the party here but I think I am caught up. Anyways, I think I have a solution to the problem that will make a majority of the backers whole without breaking the bank for THunt. So, lets face facts here, having THunt shoulder the cost of having the cards printed and shipped is just a non-starter. I appreciate his enthusiasm but it's just not realistic, especially when you run the numbers. Furthermore, you're just not going to get that backer list from Kickstarter without a court order, and they are going to fight it the whole way because that just open them up to more responsibility down the road. Kickstarter's whole business model is based on collecting their cut and then washing their hands like Pontius Pilate if a project fails.

So instead, go the Cards Against Humanity route. Basically, finish the game and develop the rules and, when it's all done, release image files of the cards on your website. People who want to play the game can print the cards out themselves, saving the prodigious printing and shipping costs. Furthermore, you don't need to track backers since it's freely available to all. Down the road, you can even set up print on demand cards for people to buy if they really want a hard copy. Is it perfect? No. But I think this has the highest chance of making the most number of people whole as quickly as possible.

[Krulle]

Look a bit further up.

Huge step forward! I now have a list of every #GARBacker who put in $11 and up. Both KS and PayPal backers! I have all those emails! XD

And it's looking like I can probably get the rest of the #GARBacker ppl too. Blog update coming soon.

So, THunt already HAS the backer list. You missed something when browsing this thread.
And your solution is the most often suggested one here. Nearly no backer wants THunt to spend money which he does not have for a project which was not his and failed due to reason he had no influence on.
We all appreciate his efforts to wrap the game up to a playable state though, but we hope that he will try to find a more sustainable solution than spending his families lunch, breakfast, and dinner money for this.

[Sessine]

We all appreciate his efforts to wrap the game up to a playable state though, but we hope that he will try to find a more sustainable solution than spending his families lunch, breakfast, and dinner money for this.

Precisely my sentiments.

As for the Kickstarter backer list, perhaps Thunt managed to get in touch with Richard, who really has no reason at this point NOT to give Thunt a copy of the data. Evertide is most likely insolvent, and the company's rights to the Goblins card game have expired. If Thunt said, "Look, neither of us wants a lot of legal hassle. Let's do this the smart way. Give me these few things that you have no further use for anyway -- the list, the banners, the other stuff -- and we'll call it quits," Richard would have to be nuts to say no.

In any case, Thunt's got the list. So now we have to worry about whether he'll try to do something with it that will use up money he doesn't have.

As you say, few to none of the game's backers want Thunt to try to print and ship out fancy physical boxes filled with exorbitantly expensive loot. We know he's not the one who screwed up. We know he does not have deep enough pockets to do it without taking on a mountain of debt. I for one would feel he was being unfair to me if he tried. He'd be doing the exact opposite of what I wanted when I backed the project.

[Surran├│]

Well maybe also mentioned here but still, two points:
1) virtual cards (and free at that) vs real "hardware". I don't think THunt's high quality standards would digest such a "solution".

2) Assuming the higher the production count the lower the loss (or: higher the profit... just daydreaming...) maybe it would be nice if we could preorder directly at THunt. Just pledge, not pay, to avoid the pressure on his shoulders even more. I, as one, would probably pledge and auto-pay when the product'll be released, and I was not one of the original backers so it's basically extra income for THunt.

[Sessine]

Well maybe also mentioned here but still, two points:
1) virtual cards (and free at that) vs real "hardware". I don't think THunt's high quality standards would digest such a "solution".

That's what's worrying me. Virtual distribution does not mean worse quality, and neither does "free" -- as any webcomic artist should know very well. Quality for a card game resides in the art and the rules, not in custom dice and laminated playmats. But if he gets the bee in his bonnet that he'd somehow be compromising quality by doing it a sensible way, it could be the very devil to get it out again.

2) Assuming the higher the production count the lower the loss (or: higher the profit... just daydreaming...) maybe it would be nice if we could preorder directly at THunt. Just pledge, not pay, to avoid the pressure on his shoulders even more. I, as one, would probably pledge and auto-pay when the product'll be released, and I was not one of the original backers so it's basically extra income for THunt.

Reality check:
Read SeeAMoose's cost estimate earlier in this thread. Bare minimum:
Bulk-printing the cards alone on regular cardstock: $40,250 (or $30,000 on the lowest quality stock)
Box and other components: $20,000 (or maybe $15,000?)
Shipping to backers: a minimum of $18,000, but probably more because not all the backers were in the USA and Canada.
Shield of Wonder add-on: $8,000-$10,000 to print, an additional $4,000-$5,000 shipping.

Adding up those numbers, we get an absolute minimum cost to Thunt of $75,000. That estimate is based on many rosy assumptions which won't all turn out to be true. The actual cost is pretty much guaranteed to be higher than that, perhaps as much as $100,000 or $120,000.

He's got this crazy notion of not charging any of the Kickstarter backers because they already paid, even though they didn't pay him. There's no money to be had from Evertide. The people like you who missed the kickstarter and would order and pay for the leftovers in the print run might bring in... okay, let's say there are as many as 200 like you (that's wildly optimistic), and suppose he charges $60 each. That gets him $12,000. (The unsold leftover 180 games would be occupying space in his house for years, as a depressing reminder.)

Where's at least $63,000 US going to come from? Bear in mind that the Canadian dollar is currently hovering around 85 cents US, so he'd have to come up with more than $74,000 Canadian. What's he going to do, re-mortgage his house? Stop eating? Stop feeding his kids?

Do we want him to have to do that??

My answer is hell, no!

The whole point of Kickstarter is that a lot of individual backers each risk a small sum that they can well afford to lose. When you pledge, you're not buying from a store, you're being a miniature version of a venture capitalist. Some ventures will go sour. This one did. Sucks, but that's the nature of venture capital.

If he wants to finish the game and publish it as print-and-play, I'll be happy to download it. But only if it makes him happy for the game to exist and be in the hands of players who are having fun with it.

If he ruins himself financially trying to send me a physical boxed game that he does not owe me, that will make me a very unhappy person indeed.

[Surran├│]

Sure, we don't expect him (or family) to go virtually bankrupt over trying to compensate for someone else's (lack of) responsibility.

What I meant by quality is not the quality of the game but the quality of playing the game. Sure he can deliver us exceptional artistic quality of the webcomic without compromising the tension of the story (adding to it on most places, actually), so he's capable of doing an online thing for sure. Let's turn it inside out for a moment, though. Just how many times did he leave pages "unfinished" (by his standards) to keep up the schedule? A less polished page with incomplete shading, lighting or other stuff would've been preferred by the kind of readers I am. I was eager to see the story unfold and eventually go forward. Yes, I was astonished by each and every update of gradually evolving pages (and I believe this focus vs blur thing in latest page to emphasise depth is the first appearance in Goblins) yet I would've been perfectly satisfied with the Garfield-like simplicity of thick-brush-single-color-fill stuff. Of course, THunt wasn't so he pressed (and I believe he will keep pressing) forward.

If you download the images, how do you make them into cards that are nice to touch and withstand wear? I'm genuinely interested since I've seen even professional (not home-made) decks worn so badly that you could tell from the unique wear pattern on the back of each card what's on the other side. True, that was after hundreds if not thousands of hands dealt.

On the other hand, if you have them downloaded, you may reprint them any time you want But can't you make such "backup" solutions by scanning the original as well?

To put the long story short; I don't think THunt is willing to envision us gamers holding house-printed (most of us maybe B&W printed) 80g sheets glued on thick black cardboards, cut with scissors and laminated with a $20 home laminator that eventually peels off after every few dozen hands.

About the depressing heap of leftover stock; I don't think he'd go for anything else than print on-demand.

Well said about that venture capitalist thing as well. I like this point of view and feel inclined to support any petition towards THunt to go this way. Particularly since I wasn't one of these capitalists

[Sessine]

I haven't done print and play, myself, but there are plenty of people on Board Game Geeks who do it regularly. I suppose the key point is that with print and play, it's still not free to get a physical deck of cards in your hands, but it's the player who is in full control of the deck quality, and the cost. Here are a few links that will give an idea:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/490643/ ... thod-again
http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Print_and_Play_Games
Note that a lot of people use card sleeves and are apparently quite happy with that solution.

If you're not into do-it-yourself crafting, there are places where it looks like you can upload print and play files and pay to have them printed, though quality may not be that good:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/802017/ ... -cards-499

Card printing companies come in two different business models. Some print large bulk orders and ship everything to one address. They're using offset printing (where there are economies of scale), so the card quality tends to be good to excellent, and the cost per deck is lower; however, that's not feasible unless Thunt charges EVERY game buyer, KS backer or not, at least enough to cover his costs. If he tries to give the games to us at his own expense, he'll ruin himself. Even then, if he miscalculates costs, as Evertide apparently did, he could still end up losing a lot of money.

The other option is print on demand, which uses specialized high-speed laser printers to print custom decks. The one I'm familiar with, The Game Crafter, could certainly be set up to handle everything: taking an individual order, printing the cards and other components, assembling the game in a box, and shipping it out via USPS. TGC does not accept print-and-play files; Thunt, who owns the rights, would have to set everything up. But once that's done, it would all work automatically. Anyone who wanted G:AR would be able to buy a copy.

TGC is talking about adding a feature of coupons or discounts; by the time Thunt would be ready to do this, that feature could have already been implemented. In that case, since he now has the list, if he wants to do something for KS backers, he could send out a coupon to buy the game at-cost, while selling the game to the wider world at a higher price that includes a little profit for him.



Physical games cannot be free. One way or another, it just costs money to make them. It's not reasonable for Thunt to be the one who pays the bill for everyone. So that leaves two low-risk options:
- print and play: do-it-yourself, you get to choose how good the quality is, and
- print on demand: easy for everybody (once it's set up), and quite good quality.

Thunt could do both, and make just about everyone happy.

[speakslittle]

I'm kind of taking the silence as a good thing.
I mean, it's certainly possible that he's agonizing over the blog as only THunt can. But it's also possible that either he's realized that the expectations of fulfilling the project he dreams of as-promised by KS is untenable. Or that legal representation has advised discretion. I feel like I remember some other times where boss man wasn't allowed to talk about something. Heck, maybe some game dev fan got in touch with him and was like "Let's do a digital version. We can do it cheaper, and we can put up a server, so that fans can play from their phone or pc against other players."

I'd certainly prefer the original, awesome cardstock. But I will absolutely and HAPPILY play the **** out of any goblins-related game.
Deep down, like a number of fans, I really just want to give THunt money in exchange for awesome swag and artwork.

[Krulle]

@Thunt_Goblins I just re-read your G:AR post and I was curious if you have reported Evertide to the Better Business Bureau? If they're...

@Thunt_Goblins ...taking money for a non-existent product, that sounds like the BBB's territory.

.@justcallmekapp We're taking it to Kickstarter, Amazon and police. I was giving Richard time to contact me and sort this out, but he didn't

I know I'm behind in game updates. I've been working on the game (more than I should be) and have a bunch more info to explain.

[Krulle]

I just sent this to KS. Hello Kickstarter, I'm Tarol, the author Goblins, which is the comic that this card (cont) http://tl.gd/n_1skc66s

► Show Spoiler

Hello Kickstarter,

I'm Tarol, the author Goblins, which is the comic that this card game was to be based off of - .

Richard James, the head of http://evertidegames.com has folded up his small gaming company and vanished with the $183k that was raised through your site. On top of destroying my career (crowd funding / merchandising is of course no longer possible for me) and leaving me to somehow appease the thousands of backers without the funds, Richard James is still stealing money from my fans at this very moment, from here - < link removed because I don't want to promote it > . The items for "sale" (which will never be made) all with my name on them, are continuing to be promoted through the popularity of the Kickstarter campaign and he has been collecting money in this way ever since the Kickstarter page was launched. I'm still receiving emails from people who are still being scammed by him, using my name thru your site.

I contacted you in early December '14 but received a brief response, denying me any of the help I requested. I detest the idea of taking legal action, but with this much money involved and with how severely my career, reputation and finances have been and continue to be ruined, I honestly have no choice. I realize that my name is not officially listed as a creator, but my name is plastered all over the game and on every piece of fake merchandise that Richard James continues to falsely sell to this day. Furthermore, I am featured in the introduction video with Richard as we both explain our project together as partners. So there can be no question as to the authenticity of what I'm telling you.

You've known for almost two months now, that the Kickstarter page which was used to steal the funds (plus all the money he's still collecting) was/is promoting a criminal. I'm astounded at how casually you've brushed me aside without offering help of any kind to me or the thousands of my fans who are being stolen from.

I fully understand that Kickstarter is not legally or morally responsible for what Richard has done and I of course, place no blame on you for the campaign itself. However, now that you're fully aware of the situation and since you have indeed profited off of this, I hope that you'll be willing to offer me something more than what you offered a couple months ago...

"You will need to work this out directly with the project creators."

Which is a frustratingly redundant thing to tell me, since the person who wrote this (perhaps it's the same person reading this now) knew full well that Richard had disappeared with the money.

Please, at the very least, take the page down, since it's still promoting Richard's page which is still stealing from people (unless you, with your experience think there's a better direction to go in). Or what about the possibility of Kickstarter sending out a blanket email to all of the backers, with a message that I give to you? Or perhaps allow me to create a separate Kickstarter page that doesn't ask for funds but simply allows me, as a registered creator, to make updates on it? Then you could maybe post a visible link to my page in the updates section or on the front of the original page, etc. Or if you don't like the idea of me creating a page like that (which honestly, I'd understand) then maybe instead post the link to my blog or email?

There's got to be 'something' you can do to help me and the nearly 3000 other people, if only a little bit.

Thank you.
-Tarol

[speakslittle]

Lawyers don't tend to respond to "Pretty Please".

[Wolfie]

Lawyers don't tend to respond to "Pretty Please".

Thunt's Canadian. Being nice is like breathing.

Besides, there's nothing wrong with going the "nice" route first. It means that you exhaust all other routes before you bring out the mean side.

[speakslittle]

True. A trail of good-faith attempts to bring this to a favorable conclusion.
Makes me sad, though.

[willpell]

Besides, there's nothing wrong with going the "nice" route first. It means that you exhaust all other routes before you bring out the mean side.

That was the very mistake Thunt made with Richard James in the first place. If he'd instantly assumed the worst, this situation might be resolved by now; instead it looks as if he didn't care all that much, because he didn't start taking the breach-of-contract seriously until the trail had gone utterly cold. That's probably why Kickstarter is giving him the brush-off. People who don't play hardball usually just get taken advantage of.

[Wolfie]

Besides, there's nothing wrong with going the "nice" route first. It means that you exhaust all other routes before you bring out the mean side.

That was the very mistake Thunt made with Richard James in the first place. If he'd instantly assumed the worst, this situation might be resolved by now; instead it looks as if he didn't care all that much, because he didn't start taking the breach-of-contract seriously until the trail had gone utterly cold. That's probably why Kickstarter is giving him the brush-off. People who don't play hardball usually just get taken advantage of.

Yes, but to people with a conscience, going the nice route first means that when they do play hardball, they don't have to listen to the nag on their shoulder going off about them being an @ss.

► Show Spoiler

I wish THunt all the luck in the world and I am supremely glad at the moment that I was too frakkin broke to back the Kickstarter when it was going on, though I was looking forward to perhaps buying the game when it came out afterwards.

[Sessine]

Besides, there's nothing wrong with going the "nice" route first. It means that you exhaust all other routes before you bring out the mean side.

That was the very mistake Thunt made with Richard James in the first place. If he'd instantly assumed the worst, this situation might be resolved by now; instead it looks as if he didn't care all that much, because he didn't start taking the breach-of-contract seriously until the trail had gone utterly cold. That's probably why Kickstarter is giving him the brush-off. People who don't play hardball usually just get taken advantage of.

Bear in mind that when you contact an organization like KS, you aren't initially dealing with people who think like that. You're dealing with a single underpaid front-line employee whose prime motivation is to keep his or her job and maybe earn a raise. There are rules laid down for the job. Not following the rules is going to get them in trouble. They do have the power to ask for an exception, but if you come on all rude and accusing, they're going to have zero interest in doing that for you. It's much easier for them to say no -- and their supervisors will back them up on that, because the world is overpopulated with people who assume you have to go in every time with all guns blazing.

Starting off nice is the best strategy. You want a paper trail. If you end up in court, you want to be able to prove that you were the reasonable party. You can always escalate later. Backing down is much harder.

So what you want to do is say things that will give them a reason to want to move your file up the chain of command, to someone with the authority to bend the rules.

As for Richard James... never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. It takes time to accumulate evidence. We don't know what actions Thunt has taken, there. At the beginning, when the rights first reverted, it was quite plausible that he had lost the money through incompetence, gotten scared, and run away. There still isn't any proof of intentional fraud, so far as we know: that web site is all automatic, and Richard failing to have it taken down is only proof that he is not willing to stick his head up to do anything that would let anyone trace him to wherever he is hiding. It would take a police investigation to prove that he is actually profiting from it, as in, withdrawing the money for his own use.

[willpell]

Not following the rules is going to get them in trouble. They do have the power to ask for an exception, but if you come on all rude and accusing, they're going to have zero interest in doing that for you. It's much easier for them to say no -- and their supervisors will back them up on that, because the world is overpopulated with people who assume you have to go in every time with all guns blazing.

Interesting and semi-valid seeming logic, but I remain unconvinced. It reminds me of the beliefs espoused by the writer of this Cracked.com article (fair warning: this is a Tab Explosion kind of a website, do not click if you have poor impulse control, limited time, and/or a sluggish browser which crashes when there are multiple Flash ads running).

And likewise, while I wish I could believe this kind of Gandhi-esque philosophy was correct (because I genuinely admire pacifists), I also feel very strongly that this sort of thing is easily used to provide excuses for systemic failure and general incompetence, both of which I passionately oppose in such cases. I feel that if you don't have an absolutely ironclad methodology in place, which cannot possibly fail to deliver justice, then you MUST escalate all cases to the utmost possible degree of aggravation, or they will simply be lost in the shuffle.

People won't pay attention to your complaint unless you shout it at the top of your lungs; they might hate you if you do, but at least they won't simply ignore your plight, and I feel as though that's worse.

It would take a police investigation to prove that he is actually profiting from it, as in, withdrawing the money for his own use.

That, however, is a very good point. Someone with the authority to do so definitely ought to verify whether the account is just accumulating the funds, as they could then be recovered fairly easily once the case is proven.

[Sessine]

Not following the rules is going to get them in trouble. They do have the power to ask for an exception, but if you come on all rude and accusing, they're going to have zero interest in doing that for you. It's much easier for them to say no -- and their supervisors will back them up on that, because the world is overpopulated with people who assume you have to go in every time with all guns blazing.

Interesting and semi-valid seeming logic, but I remain unconvinced. It reminds me of the beliefs espoused by the writer of this Cracked.com article (fair warning: this is a Tab Explosion kind of a website, do not click if you have poor impulse control, limited time, and/or a sluggish browser which crashes when there are multiple Flash ads running).

And likewise, while I wish I could believe this kind of Gandhi-esque philosophy was correct (because I genuinely admire pacifists), I also feel very strongly that this sort of thing is easily used to provide excuses for systemic failure and general incompetence, both of which I passionately oppose in such cases. I feel that if you don't have an absolutely ironclad methodology in place, which cannot possibly fail to deliver justice, then you MUST escalate all cases to the utmost possible degree of aggravation, or they will simply be lost in the shuffle.

People won't pay attention to your complaint unless you shout it at the top of your lungs; they might hate you if you do, but at least they won't simply ignore your plight, and I feel as though that's worse.

Thank you for the link! Very readable. In my view, the writer of that article is absolutely right about the mental traps we can fall into that will cause us to defeat ourselves without realizing it. Bang on, especially the point about 'perfect examples'. He doesn't get into the subject of a better strategy, though, tailing off with a simplistic... "so we should, um, just trust civilization to be good enough to win." There are better strategies -- but further discussion of how to combat terrorism more effectively would sidetrack this thread into territory that belongs in Controversy.

The topic here is not Fighting Evil, but knowing how to navigate through a bureaucracy that's currently standing in your way, to get it to do some reasonable thing that you want it to do. Success is measured by achieving your goal, even though the organization is, like all human endeavors, very far from perfect. To get there, it helps a lot to understand how bureaucracies really work. I was employed for twenty years by a big life insurance company, and have worked for a number of other large organizations. I have done my share of using that knowledge to achieve results when dealing with bureaucracies.

Here's the key point: Bureaucracies are not monolithic, even if they look like it from the outside. They are made up of people. You can use this fact to win.

Trust me, the strategy that succeeds is, start nice. Listen when they explain their rules. Don't back down. Tell low-level employees, nicely, why your case is different. If you're feeling angry, say that you are angry at the organization, not them. Tell them that you know they would like to help you, and ask them to let you talk to someone who has the authority to make an exception. There always is such a person. There are always procedures in place for handling exceptions. To get past the front-line employee, you need to make them want to help you.

If you're both nice, and persistent, this works maybe 60-70% of the time. Sometimes it doesn't... and that's when you escalate. Not step by step up the corporate ladder. That would be a mistake. You send a letter to the attention of the organization's CEO. You still don't get nasty. The CEO has an interest in the organization's reputation, and the power to make things go your way with a single two-minute phone call to some mid-level manager who -- this is essential -- hasn't already committed his or her ego by having said NO to you. Making the call will feel good to the CEO, and the mid-level manager will not have any reason to present a counter-argument, but will instead be able to look good by making what the CEO wants happen very quickly.

If that doesn't work either... THAT'S when to haul out the big guns. Not before!

[willpell]

Thank you for the link! Very readable.

Um, you're welcome I guess...you did get that I disagree with their point, right? Saying "the bully doesn't want to win" is ridiculous, of course the bully wants to win, he picks fights because he's good at fighting. It's true that fighting back will give him what he wants, but that doesn't mean the correct answer is to just run and hide behind some authority figure's skirts every time, because that only keeps you safe until the moment you're caught without a protector.

The topic here is not Fighting Evil, but knowing how to navigate through a bureaucracy that's currently standing in your way, to get it to do some reasonable thing that you want it to do. Success is measured by achieving your goal, even though the organization is, like all human endeavors, very far from perfect.

The correct response to the existence of an imperfect system is to force it to become perfect. Playing by the rules it has established only gives it authorization to remain unchanged. As long as we tolerate incompetence, it will continue to exist. We must hold our society's gatekeepers to standards which we ourselves would never be capable of living up to; if they can't measure up to those lofty expectations, they must be removed. To be specific, if Kickstarter does not make it their #1 priority to safeguard users of their service, then their service should be terminated, their assets seized for redistribution to the wronged parties, and every individual in the company charged with negligence for failing to act correctly. Allowing them to hide behind legalese which says they're not responsible is an atrocity; they ARE responsible, and if they weren't capable of behaving responsibly, of absolutely living up to that responsibility 100% at whatever cost to themselves, they had no right to ever go into business. The world is FULL of people who can't be trusted; they have every right to continue living, but they have zero right to claim any power whatsoever over anyone else. All services and commerce ought to be provided by the rare exceptions to humanity's general fallibility; if they are inadequate to meet the need, then we must indoctrinate society to get used to doing without. Which oughtn't be hard, as we need FAR less than we think we do.

Here's the key point: Bureaucracies are not monolithic, even if they look like it from the outside. They are made up of people. You can use this fact to win.

If the people in them have been indoctrinated to believe that they must always follow the organization's rules, then they are essentially not people any more; they have completely abandoned their free will in order to subsume themselves into a groupmind, and are like cells which a virus has taken over in order to replicate its DNA at the expense of the host. An organization of any sort is basically an ideological machine, made out of words and actions rather than physical parts, but just like any other machine, if you get caught between its gears, it will mindlessly grind you into pulp. The ONLY way to be safe in dealing with any form of mechanization, which includes the legal and financial systems, is for free individual humans to be 100% in control at all times. If one man, any man, without any special training or authorization, cannot "stop the presses" with the flick of a switch, regardless of the cost, then the entire thing is a death trap that inevitably WILL oil itself with innocent blood. No matter how big or cantankerous, the system is, how powerful or useful or traditional or profitable or any other virtue, it MUST be able to stop on a dime whenever any human being is in the slightest danger, or it is a menace which must be put down. Not one innocent casualty, not one iota of psychological pain or hopeless futility, is an acceptible loss.

that's when you escalate. Not step by step up the corporate ladder. That would be a mistake. You send a letter to the attention of the organization's CEO. You still don't get nasty. The CEO has an interest in the organization's reputation, and the power to make things go your way with a single two-minute phone call to some mid-level manager who -- this is essential -- hasn't already committed his or her ego by having said NO to you. Making the call will feel good to the CEO, and the mid-level manager will not have any reason to present a counter-argument, but will instead be able to look good by making what the CEO wants happen very quickly.

Now that, I will admit, IS a very interesting strategy. There's just one problem I see - how the HELL are you ever supposed to get in touch with a corporation CEO? Even if I could find out the phone number for, say, Donald Trump, what could possibly force him to take my call? Rich and powerful people usually have legions of intermediaries - secretaries, mail-answerers, and so forth - whose specific purpose is to ensure that the outside world cannot reach them, in order to waste their time and/or pose a threat to their safety. Most likely, their gatekeepers would throw your letter away just because they didn't read your name in the Forbes List of Most Influential Billionaires or whatever.

[Glemp]

Now that, I will admit, IS a very interesting strategy. There's just one problem I see - how the HELL are you ever supposed to get in touch with a corporation CEO? Even if I could find out the phone number for, say, Donald Trump, what could possibly force him to take my call? Rich and powerful people usually have legions of intermediaries - secretaries, mail-answerers, and so forth - whose specific purpose is to ensure that the outside world cannot reach them, in order to waste their time and/or pose a threat to their safety. Most likely, their gatekeepers would throw your letter away just because they didn't read your name in the Forbes List of Most Influential Billionaires or whatever.

Actually, companies really do this - it's called Executive Escalation. It isn't the CEO himself, of course, but if there aren't any other options then sending it in can and has achieved change: Amazon is particularly well-known for this.

Within Amazon.com (AMZN) thereÔÇÖs a certain type of e-mail that elicits waves of panic. It usually originates with an annoyed customer who complains to the companyÔÇÖs founder and chief executive officer. Jeff Bezos has a public e-mail address, jeff@amazon.com. Not only does he read many customer complaints, he forwards them to the relevant Amazon employees, with a one-character addition: a question mark.

When Amazon employees get a Bezos question mark e-mail, they react as though theyÔÇÖve discovered a ticking bomb. TheyÔÇÖve typically got a few hours to solve whatever issue the CEO has flagged and prepare a thorough explanation for how it occurred, a response that will be reviewed by a succession of managers before the answer is presented to Bezos himself. Such escalations, as these e-mails are known, are BezosÔÇÖs way of ensuring that the customerÔÇÖs voice is constantly heard inside the company.

-Source

[willpell]

Well good for Jeff Bezos. But what percentage of the world's corporations do anything of the sort? For example, I'm pretty sick of my mortgage company hassling us about payments we're incapable of making; what are the odds I could get a hold of the president of an international banking firm (I think it's "His Solicitors British Columbia" or HSBC in our case) and convince them that they already have billions of dollars, so would they please stop wasting money on hiring collections agents to give us a hard time, when the simple fact is that we're badly underemployed, are doing the best we can, and will pay them when we're able to? Last I checked, they're not in the habit of giving a shit about that kind of thing. CEOS who do in fact give that shit are almost certainly the exception rather than the rule.

[RocketScientist]

We're getting into Controversy here. Let's not do that.

[BuildsLegos]

I'm happy to say I reported Eventide's 11-minute Alternate Realities video on Youtube for scamming. Whoever doesn't think that's enough should go here to report more of their videos. You know, spread the word as much as possible.

[MandalorTeSiit]

I'm happy to say I reported Eventide's 11-minute Alternate Realities video on Youtube for scamming. Whoever doesn't think that's enough should go here to report more of their videos. You know, spread the word as much as possible.

You mean this one? That was posted a year and a half ago, which (I think) was before any of this happened. It doesn't link to the preorder in the description, or to anything else that will take money, so how is it scamming?

[Krulle]

And the videos are still nice to look at, as they show images of future elements of the comic...