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kaeroku..
The conversation had also moved on from that point, and the thread had continued on. There was no need to (in this thread,) bring the conversation back to something that was indeed decidedly off topic. No one is bullying or attacking you.

Glemp wrote: *Takes a deep breath* Because....um. Er. Maybe he thinks that he's doing them a favour by completely wiping them out rather than killing them, because they won't go through DnD Heaven/Hell and can't be resurrected? Or the Maze resets if it is impossible to win - e.g., if the only one who can doesn't want to?

Hnm. I'd imagine the maze does reset if it's impossible to win, but I doubt it would know (that is, I doubt the maze itself is sapient,) that Psimax has no desire to complete it.
If everyone inside the maze somehow died at once, or was otherwise physically incapable of finishing I'm -guessing- it would reset, but that's just a guess.

WearsHats wrote:

Bad At Jokes wrote:There is definitely a joke about a magician and hypnotism here by I just cant place it.

You signed up with the forum, under the name "Bad At Jokes" to tell us you think there's a joke here, but you can't make it? Nice.

Sorry obscure reference to thunt's rape post.

Glemp wrote:

Rooks wrote:

WearsHats wrote:Kin and Forgath are being held motionless by a powerful enemy. Their one chance to save Minmax's life is to get past him to the treasure room. Psimax is ready to kill them both with a thought (literally) as soon as he gets the answers he wants. (As it happens, he's also ready to kill everyone else in the maze. But Kin very likely does not know that.) There's also the emotional aspect, but the argument at hand is pure tactics, so let's leave that aside.

You know that brings up a good point. Why doesn't PsiMax just kill everyone and then not win the maze? That would give him all the time in the world to complete his calculation without fear of people messing it up.

*Takes a deep breath* Because....um. Er. Maybe he thinks that he's doing them a favour by completely wiping them out rather than killing them, because they won't go through DnD Heaven/Hell and can't be resurrected? Or the Maze resets if it is impossible to win - e.g., if the only one who can doesn't want to?

I suppose he could see it as a challenge. A way to prove his intellect if he can "solve" the equation while everyone is still alive. Maybe he's just too egotistical to take the easy way out.

[mod="LooksAtYouFunny"]Off topic[/mod]
@ topic, I was presently wondering: Forgath has some splashes across his chest piece in the first panel. Are they from his slisshhked mace? Or is that spilled healing potion from when he was thrown across the room? That could be very unfortunate, with things as they are...

Glemp wrote:

Rooks wrote:

WearsHats wrote:Kin and Forgath are being held motionless by a powerful enemy. Their one chance to save Minmax's life is to get past him to the treasure room. Psimax is ready to kill them both with a thought (literally) as soon as he gets the answers he wants. (As it happens, he's also ready to kill everyone else in the maze. But Kin very likely does not know that.) There's also the emotional aspect, but the argument at hand is pure tactics, so let's leave that aside.

You know that brings up a good point. Why doesn't PsiMax just kill everyone and then not win the maze? That would give him all the time in the world to complete his calculation without fear of people messing it up.

*Takes a deep breath* Because....um. Er. Maybe he thinks that he's doing them a favour by completely wiping them out rather than killing them, because they won't go through DnD Heaven/Hell and can't be resurrected? Or the Maze resets if it is impossible to win - e.g., if the only one who can doesn't want to?

Psimax seems like a very hands off villain. He probably finds fighting to be beneath him ad would rather work in solace and only fight the one party that makes it to the winners circle each go around. Or it could be that Splishing everyone in the maze would use up all of his PP. I still want to know what damn power that is, it makes Matter Agitation look like a [redacted]

Earlier in this thread, it was mentioned something that I believe had been said either in THunt's tweets, or during a live broadcast, that there is a line yet to appear in the comic: "I see you". And it seems that the opinions are that this line is said by Kin.

Well, that leads me to a prediction, and a rather dire/sad/emotional prediction, too - involving the collar - so I'm going to spoiler the rest, just in case (and again because it is sad to think about):

Reads_Forums wrote:Psimax isn't malevolent, until kin attacked him he had no intentions but to gather information on 156. He still probably has no ill feelings towards kin, he's completely detached in that way. If his goals coincide with 156 he'd help them again. If not he won't. Until now he didn't see any of the groups as enemies as he wasn't competing with them.
...
It's a plausible outcome that their goals coincide, out of all the groups their is the one he has most interest in removing from the MoM.

Oh, yeah, he just wants some information - let's stay calm and talk to him! A small detail - he's ready to apply any kind of torture to get it. More to say - he knows exactly how to torture Kin in the most effective way (remember him testing the "love" theory? and now even worth - the leash).
Yes, he did help FMK before. To get some time to study the unknown variable. He was also sure they're gonna die in the tower room anyway. A rational decision. So it really is plausible - Psymax letting FMK go if he considers it to be rational. But this "if" is bothering me.

Reads_Forums wrote:I don't think engaging him verbally isn't a matter of tricking him, sometimes their goals coincide which is why he helped 156 before. Engage is logical debate, lead him to the conclusion that 156 makes the problem unsolvable (not unexpected with added recursion through time holes)and he'll get them out as fast as possible, after all he's failed 100s of times before and 156 have been in all of them

You put everything on this "coinciding goals" card. To win with this card there have to be two conditions. The first one, there really has to exist such a coinciding goal. You say Psymax would be glad to get rid of FMK? Remember his words? "..That death would necessitate the recalculation of forty four relevant variables.." Imagine how much he'll have to recalculate when removing them from the maze. If it's even possible to recalculate it atm with all the mess. So this far we only have some weak speculations - and Kin has even less information!
The second condition - persuading Psymax that there is a coinciding goal. When you describe it it's so damn easy! Just like biting off Kin's tongue you've suggested before.
1. Int Psymax > Int Kin. Kin would also be not in the best mental shape because of being tortured during this dialogue interrogation.
2. The leash. It makes Kin say only the truth (not an advantage when persuading someone in something).
3. The leash makes Kin do what Psymax orders. And when he orders he only to answer his questions there won't be an opportunity for her to persuade him in something.
4. FMK is short on time - Kin and Forgath were in a hurry, 'cause they expect Minmax to die in the tower room. So no time for long talks.
5. Wasn't Psymax's main goal to put everything (well, as much stuff as he can) to oblivion? That though should also be nagging when persuading him to spare your life.
Btw, he didn't fail the previous runs - he's been studying the maze. And in this run he started his oblivion engine.

As already said - you put everything on this card. Does it really give more chances to win, than trying to strangle Psymax when there was an opportunity for it? I seriously doubt that.

You know that brings up a good point. Why doesn't PsiMax just kill everyone and then not win the maze? That would give him all the time in the world to complete his calculation without fear of people messing it up.

Why kill everyone when they wont exist anyway. Same reason you don't kill every single ant before putting the hose down their nest. Psymax has weighed up the odds of success and calculated the most efficient means to his end and it carrying it out.

stevedj wrote:Earlier in this thread, it was mentioned something that I believe had been said either in THunt's tweets, or during a live broadcast, that there is a line yet to appear in the comic: "I see you". And it seems that the opinions are that this line is said by Kin.

Well, that leads me to a prediction, and a rather dire/sad/emotional prediction, too - involving the collar - so I'm going to spoiler the rest, just in case (and again because it is sad to think about):

► Show Spoiler

Suppose that Kin didn't tell us everything about the collar. GS told her about a possible explosion if it was ever removed. Perhaps the collar isn't so "curse-bound" as we've been led to believe; perhaps it really can be simply unlatched and removed, at will?

So, now she is severely wounded, likely such that she knows that the wounds will eventually be fatal. In the next 'round', PsiMax again reaches for the leash, and grabs hold of it. Now, she may be blocked from hurting PsiMax, but not herself. She reaches up with her hands (they aren't held still), and grasps the collar. PsiMax leans in, almost tauntingly, to ask is questions. From the tail explosion, she realized that MinMax and her are now seeing each other. With a final moment of reflection, she softly whispers "I see you", and unlatches the collar...

(Big, but not quite mountain-destroying...) ...Explosion... Kin, and PsiMax, are dead.

Forgath, now released, finds the invisible key in the door, opens it, and claims victory (in time to save MinMax).

Awesome and tragic theory. Small problem: why didn't she do that with Goblinslayer? He could have ordered her not to, but it'd be easier to put something on it rather than risk having a guard or citizen causing civilian deaths and major property damage, which would be politically embarrassing to say the least. It'd be like letting a hand grenade walk around.

Glemp wrote:

stevedj wrote:Earlier in this thread, it was mentioned something that I believe had been said either in THunt's tweets, or during a live broadcast, that there is a line yet to appear in the comic: "I see you". And it seems that the opinions are that this line is said by Kin.

Well, that leads me to a prediction, and a rather dire/sad/emotional prediction, too - involving the collar - so I'm going to spoiler the rest, just in case (and again because it is sad to think about):

► Show Spoiler

Suppose that Kin didn't tell us everything about the collar. GS told her about a possible explosion if it was ever removed. Perhaps the collar isn't so "curse-bound" as we've been led to believe; perhaps it really can be simply unlatched and removed, at will?

So, now she is severely wounded, likely such that she knows that the wounds will eventually be fatal. In the next 'round', PsiMax again reaches for the leash, and grabs hold of it. Now, she may be blocked from hurting PsiMax, but not herself. She reaches up with her hands (they aren't held still), and grasps the collar. PsiMax leans in, almost tauntingly, to ask is questions. From the tail explosion, she realized that MinMax and her are now seeing each other. With a final moment of reflection, she softly whispers "I see you", and unlatches the collar...

(Big, but not quite mountain-destroying...) ...Explosion... Kin, and PsiMax, are dead.

Forgath, now released, finds the invisible key in the door, opens it, and claims victory (in time to save MinMax).

Awesome and tragic theory. Small problem: why didn't she do that with Goblinslayer? He could have ordered her not to, but it'd be easier to put something on it rather than risk having a guard or citizen causing civilian deaths and major property damage, which would be politically embarrassing to say the least. It'd be like letting a hand grenade walk around.

I think because that action, especially back then, would normally feel like "running away" or conceding or whatnot -- something Kin has said she would never do again.

I was once privileged to sit and listen while an elderly author talked about Agatha Christie. She told him once that she set up her books so that several characters could have done the murder, and then decided as she wrote which one would be guilty. He told her he was the exact opposite, always working backwards from a strong ending or gimmick, and that he found her method alarming.
I think we may be approaching a strong ending or gimmick that Thunt has been steadily marching us closer and closer to for years. I think Forgath is going to pull some low-level spell at a crucial time, and it will be unexpected but work like crazy. I think we just went through all that 'turn undead' stuff as a Chekhov's Mace to remind everyone that Forgath is not just a fighter, but also a low-level cleric. Is there anything you could conjure up in an Anymug that would be psion kryptonite?
I'm also thinking that PsychoMax has killed enough Kins by now to know where the vital organs are, and has just cut off the end of her tail. Healing potion and a few long naps may grow some of it back. Plus there seems to be a whole rack of prizes which include the Jade Teapot, which again makes me digress to wonder if all parties are after the same prize, and one of those prizes might be an Orb. This is a world of magic and wonder; never forget that.

stevedj wrote:

Glemp wrote: Awesome and tragic theory. Small problem: why didn't she do that with Goblinslayer? He could have ordered her not to, but it'd be easier to put something on it rather than risk having a guard or citizen causing civilian deaths and major property damage, which would be politically embarrassing to say the least. It'd be like letting a hand grenade walk around.

I think because that action, especially back then, would normally feel like "running away" or conceding or whatnot -- something Kin has said she would never do again.

If I read between the lines right, she decided not to run away again because she knew that catching her brought GS pleasure. Blowing yourself up isn't something he can undo, not easily anyway.

Glemp wrote:
Awesome and tragic theory. Small problem: why didn't she do that with Goblinslayer? He could have ordered her not to, but it'd be easier to put something on it rather than risk having a guard or citizen causing civilian deaths and major property damage, which would be politically embarrassing to say the least. It'd be like letting a hand grenade walk around.

The main problem is, being a cursed item, you can't just take it off. It requires a remove Curse spell, which Forgath is sitll 2 levels from being able to cast.

RedwoodElf wrote:

Glemp wrote:
Awesome and tragic theory. Small problem: why didn't she do that with Goblinslayer? He could have ordered her not to, but it'd be easier to put something on it rather than risk having a guard or citizen causing civilian deaths and major property damage, which would be politically embarrassing to say the least. It'd be like letting a hand grenade walk around.

The main problem is, being a cursed item, you can't just take it off. It requires a remove Curse spell, which Forgath is sitll 2 levels from being able to cast.

Ja, Hy know, de deory iz dot she can do eet herzelf.

RedwoodElf wrote:

Glemp wrote:
Awesome and tragic theory. Small problem: why didn't she do that with Goblinslayer? He could have ordered her not to, but it'd be easier to put something on it rather than risk having a guard or citizen causing civilian deaths and major property damage, which would be politically embarrassing to say the least. It'd be like letting a hand grenade walk around.

The main problem is, being a cursed item, you can't just take it off. It requires a remove Curse spell, which Forgath is sitll 2 levels from being able to cast.

That's an awful lot of pooping rp exp.

Glemp wrote:

Rooks wrote:

WearsHats wrote:Kin and Forgath are being held motionless by a powerful enemy. Their one chance to save Minmax's life is to get past him to the treasure room. Psimax is ready to kill them both with a thought (literally) as soon as he gets the answers he wants. (As it happens, he's also ready to kill everyone else in the maze. But Kin very likely does not know that.) There's also the emotional aspect, but the argument at hand is pure tactics, so let's leave that aside.

You know that brings up a good point. Why doesn't PsiMax just kill everyone and then not win the maze? That would give him all the time in the world to complete his calculation without fear of people messing it up.

*Takes a deep breath* Because....um. Er. Maybe he thinks that he's doing them a favour by completely wiping them out rather than killing them, because they won't go through DnD Heaven/Hell and can't be resurrected? Or the Maze resets if it is impossible to win - e.g., if the only one who can doesn't want to?

I think he said he considers Oblivion as a gift for everyone, because oblivion is the only state where pain truly doesn't exist, or something like that. It's around when he ker-splishes his Kin, if I remember correctly. I'd search for it in the comic, but I don't quite have the time for that right now ><
Although I wonder why he doesn't just throw FMK outside of the maze (or let them win) since they're the only ones permanently introducing new variables. Why let them die on their own and risk, in the meantime, creating even more variables (as they did by using the oblivion hole to escape the zombies), rather than throwing them to the end so they can go away from the Maze and stop throwing his calculations off?

Chasm wrote: I think he said he considers Oblivion as a gift for everyone, because oblivion is the only state where pain truly doesn't exist, or something like that. It's around when he ker-splishes his Kin, if I remember correctly. I'd search for it in the comic, but I don't quite have the time for that right now ><

I do.
http://www.goblinscomic.com/02222011-2/

Glemp wrote:Because that isn't how the sword works - it only exists when Minmax (or Kin, in this theory) is holding it. When he (they) let go, it stays in the same spot in time and space until he reaches in and takes it. He can't 'push' it, because it isn't past-Max providing the force, it's present-Max, and...dear me, that was a joke wasn't it?

No, not really. It was just something I hadn't considered until that side-conversation started up.

We don't know how Oblivious works, exactly, just how it's worked so far. And I never said MinMax would let go of the sword. Just that he might be able to attack through one. There's a slight difference there.

Changes_everything wrote:@ topic, I was presently wondering: Forgath has some splashes across his chest piece in the first panel. Are they from his slisshhked mace? Or is that spilled healing potion from when he was thrown across the room? That could be very unfortunate, with things as they are...

I'm going with "Mace" here. Mainly because Forgath put the Mug down very carefully as he was reaching for the Mace. (Still no clue where he had that Mace if he had to reach behind his back to get it, but still... I vote Mace. )

I forced myself to look at the new page again and I noticed something, it looks like Forgath is back on the ground and not being "held" by Psimax. That gives me a little hope that Kin's attack on Psimax gave him an action. My crazy theory is that action is Shatter spell with the target being the glass door. Then he runs to enter blue circle while Kin distracts Psimax again.

Starfire wrote:I forced myself to look at the new page again and I noticed something, it looks like Forgath is back on the ground and not being "held" by Psimax. That gives me a little hope that Kin's attack on Psimax gave him an action. My crazy theory is that action is Shatter spell with the target being the glass door. Then he runs to enter blue circle while Kin distracts Psimax again.

I don't know. We can't see Forgath's legs or feet so he could still be floating. He is leaning forward but PsyMax may not be holding him at full strength. And Kin seems to still be floating when she is choking PsyMax, which is much more distracting to him than just talking to Forgath, so I think he can hold people even when distracted.

I am a fan of the Shatter spell theory though

Rooks wrote:

WearsHats wrote:Kin and Forgath are being held motionless by a powerful enemy. Their one chance to save Minmax's life is to get past him to the treasure room. Psimax is ready to kill them both with a thought (literally) as soon as he gets the answers he wants. (As it happens, he's also ready to kill everyone else in the maze. But Kin very likely does not know that.) There's also the emotional aspect, but the argument at hand is pure tactics, so let's leave that aside.

You know that brings up a good point. Why doesn't PsiMax just kill everyone and then not win the maze? That would give him all the time in the world to complete his calculation without fear of people messing it up.

Because his calculations have settings that involve certain people being in certain places at certain times (or not being)- which is also why he's unlikely to kill Kin here, especially when he has a cleric handy. However, I agree that at some point your scenario becomes more efficient.

Reads_Forums wrote:

RedwoodElf wrote: The main problem is, being a cursed item, you can't just take it off. It requires a remove Curse spell, which Forgath is sitll 2 levels from being able to cast.

That's an awful lot of pooping rp exp.

I think he's halfway there, after getting thrown across the room.

Hi! I'm new, but these past pages have really been a kick to the gut.

Honestly, I'm hoping Forgath will pull an awesome "Remove Curse" spell. Kin herself said that she's not sure if the explosion thing was real or a threat, and she needs a cleric now. They've come too far for a TPK. I know that not even mains can live forever, but... damn "realism;" she's the character I care the most about(tied with Big Ears) and the message I'd get from her death would be "if you're sufficiently traumatized, you're too irrational to make solid decisions and will likely die due to your overwhelming emotions." It may not be the intended message, but it definitely has some unfortunate implications. Not only is she tortured in a way that mirrors her trauma, she's being tortured by one with the face of someone she can be as close to loving as they come. I understand that life isn't fair, but stories don't have to mirror real life. If she dies in such a senseless matter... I don't want to be that new guy who threatens to stop reading if Thunt does something I don't like, because it is his story and not mine, but I'm rapidly approaching some Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy. Who can we root for if everyone we love dies senselessly? It's a dark comic with regular deaths; I get that. I don't want to be the GRR CHANGE IT OR YOU'LL LOSE A READER guy, and I really hope this isn't off-topic because I mean no disrespect, but... I just had to get it out. If she dies now it's senseless, and I have more faith in Thunt than to believe he'd pull off something so cheap. Lashing out in anger doesn't mean she deserves death. It means she's desperate, scared, and wants to protect her friends. That's a noble goal if ever there was one, even when she knows she's facing a much more powerful enemy.

Anyway, if this is off-topic, please delete it. I felt I needed to share my opinion, and I sincerely apologize if this is the wrong venue.

Welcome to the forums, Pillbug, your post is not off topic in this thread, though I do disagree with you on a few points:

1) I've stated a few times here that her death isn't senseless (and she's not actually dead yet...let's give her another page). If Psimax grabbed her leash, they would have definitely suffered a total party wipe. She would have been forced to tell Psimax about Minmax's current whereabouts, about Oblivious's capabilities, about the surviving holy symbol on Forgath's mace handle, about any other thousand-to-one plan she might be cooking up. She, Forgath, and Minmax would become instantly, irrevocably helpless if Psimax grabbed that leash. She could even be forced to call to Minmax, Terminator-style.

Fighting back in just that way, at just that time, was her only option.

2) I would say that the moral isn't "if you're sufficiently traumatized, you're too irrational to make solid decisions", but instead "people can rise up through extreme trauma to become strong and selfless, and fight through fear". She's essentially sacrificing herself to protect the group, and have a one in a million shot at killing Psimax.

3) If she does die now, and that's not certain yet, it's not senseless. I've repeatedly pointed out how her attack was the most logical move she could make, even if she made it from an emotional mindset. I may have missed a response, but I haven't seen a single person here point out how letting Psimax grab the leash could reasonably end better than the current situation, barring some completely out-of-character mercy from the villain.

I'm beginning to think that this comic might be in the vein of a Shakespearian tragedy. In other words, everybody dies.