Kickstarter Starts Tomorrow! (June 3rd)

[PseudoFenton]

@The tiers

The way kickstarter works, it is not correct to assume each tier is priced exactly like it would be in a store. And subtracting the difference in price between two tiers does not equal the cost of the goods between those two tiers. I think this makes sense to most people, so I'll leave it at that.

It makes sense (a proposed cost is just that, I don't think anyone was attempting to dictate costs), however this doesn't address the issue of "can I have A, B and D, but not C please - and I don't want to have to pay for something I wont use, more so if I haven't the money for it". Yes the cost of C may not be the cost difference between B and C, but it can still be worked out what the true cost of D (excluding C) is in-comparison to D (inclusive of A,B & C) and then offered as option E.

@The game information

We had a lot of discussion about the game information and we looked at a lot of kickstarters (especially Mr. Card Game our previous one) and the people who want to know about the game mechanics are actually a pretty small minority.

I appreciate that I may be a minority (use to that, I think most of us here are), but you're selling a game. A game with strong connections to another product with an established fanbase who've previously helped the author buy their house, true, but still a game. I understand your priorities and desire not to present an inferior demo product that may dissuade potential pledgers, and delays can't be helped - but when you're trying to drum up interest on boardgamegeeks and the like, and already expect (perhaps correctly so) that people will pledge without this knowledge... well it can't hurt to have lesser quality parts for demos.

Also, just for comparion purposes, here's another kickstarter that has just started, also as a 'boardgame'. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cra ... d-of-romeo - you can see multiple components (some of which are clearly stand ins), tutorials, rules, demos - basically the game. It just seems odd that this has been completely overlooked for this kickstarter.

[Ryu Serpentine]

Good to know you'll have that information on a wiki. Anyway I just wanted to say congratulations on reaching the main goal so quickly. I am happy to have backed this project.

[Sessine]

When you have a better video -- even if Kickstarter won't let you replace the introductory one (I don't know what their rules are), I am pretty sure you can still edit the text below it to embed a YouTube link.

Play another game session with a decent amateur videographer present. That should give you plenty of snippets of people having a riotous good time that you can edit into a video. Add shots of some of the cards, and a voiceover of why it's fun to play, and you'll have a sales pitch with far wider appeal.

[Rogbull]

While a wiki is nice, I can't stress enough on having some more information at the front of the Kickstarter page. Someone who isn't invested in Goblins will have a hard time reading through all of the mentions of rewards and goals without knowing more about the concept of the game first. You can't expect average Joe to read through everything first and then go to 3 ( Make it 4 with the incoming wiki ) links at the bottom of your current page to find snips of information about the actual product.

[Stardance]

Hi, I am not sure if this is the best place to post this, but it seems roughly on target.

I'm torn between pledging for the $55 Brassmoon Courtyard and $99 Frosted Claw. My finances are limited. I read the earlier discussion about how to not 'value' the difference in cost for (in this case, the playmat) or a t-shirt, as it were, but I need something to help sway me to one category or another.

• If I wanted to pick up the playmat later, can I? Or is it only available through the Kickstarter?
• Is contributing to the Kickstarter at that level the only way to get the 'rules' using the playmat and optional movement/evasion rules for the game?
• Has that part of the game been designed, or is this in part to help fund the design of that part of the game?
• I've never used kickstarter before. Can we change our funding commitment midway through the process?

[PseudoFenton]

but I need something to help sway me to one category or another.

Well, I think I can help for some of these.

Is contributing to the Kickstarter at that level the only way to get the 'rules' using the playmat and optional movement/evasion rules for the game?
Has that part of the game been designed, or is this in part to help fund the design of that part of the game?

From what I've gathered, the rules are already (or partially) written for movement/evasion rules. Even if they did depend on the kickstarter, it has already been funded! So yey, those rules should defiantly exist. As for if you'd need to pledge at that level to get those rules? I very much doubt it, the playmat makes things easier, but just as you can arrange the basic cards without the playmat, the extra movement rules will be to do with how you place the location cards, and therefore part of the core game rules. (I surmise, I am in no way privy to the workings of the company, but its a good bet).

I've never used kickstarter before. Can we change our funding commitment midway through the process?

You can indeed, it is an easy and painless experience that is quite common during a kickstarter event. The website itself has a full FAQ about how to do this, but it really is as simple as clicking on the "change my pledge" button and chosing a new tier - so don't feel like you'd be locked in if you chose now but change your mind later.

As for my suggestion? I play lots of games, and playmats are nice, but they're a luxury item - you very rarely need one to play (although they do help keep cards from getting mucky from dirty tables, like in pubs). The kickstarter is already fully funded, so there is no need for the money. That said if you can afford it (and do make sure you can, the money comes out at the end of the kickstarter. It is easy to forget about that though, and then not have enough come the time to pay up), well the more money we raise - the nicer the end product!

We don't have extensive long term goals yet (which is annoying), so I can't incentivise you with anything long term other than nicer dice atm. However there is high demand for more characters to be added to the game, so I'd bet that those will be added as stretch goals as time goes on. You could of cause just wait to see what new things are being offered, and then pledge more then. Those tiers are not limited in anyway, so you can upgrade at any time you like!

Hope that helps a little.

[stevedj]

I've never used kickstarter before. Can we change our funding commitment midway through the process?

You can indeed, it is an easy and painless experience that is quite common during a kickstarter event. The website itself has a full FAQ about how to do this, but it really is as simple as clicking on the "change my pledge" button and chosing a new tier - so don't feel like you'd be locked in if you chose now but change your mind later.

Keep in mind that Kickstarter is intended as a way to RAISE FUNDS (not SELL STUFF). Sometimes you might like to support a project, but not be too interested in the tangibles -- for example, someone might back with $200 because they want the project to succeed, but only choose a $50 reward (if any at all).

That said, we are behind on a few deliverables for those of you who want more information about the rules.

I think you guys have truly misunderstood what Kickstarter is for. As I just said, it is NOT FOR SELLING PRODUCT! It is for raising funds (i.e. capital funds) to finance a project that hasn't happened yet. So, no you should NOT be waiting to give us "official" rules. You should be laying out the approximate design, the approximate play, using prototype cards/figures, etc., for people to decide if they want to back the project or not.

If this doesn't stop feeling like merely a SALES POINT, someone (not me) might complain, and Kickstarter themselves may come along and shut down the drive.

[PseudoFenton]

So, no you should NOT be waiting to give us "official" rules. You should be laying out the approximate design, the approximate play, using prototype cards/figures, etc., for people to decide if they want to back the project or not.

If this doesn't stop feeling like merely a SALES POINT, someone (not me) might complain, and Kickstarter themselves may come along and shut down the drive.

Just because they shouldn't be the official final rules, doesn't stop there being time and effort to collate the information into a presentable format. Approximates still take time to put together in a digestible form, and demoing a game with prototype cards/figures still requires someone to film and edit that footage. They never said they were presenting the final immutable rules, just that they were delayed in producing stuff that they wished to deliver.

Of cause I agree that they could just as easily use alpha-grade prototype materials and there's no need to get higher levels of production for what is still an unfinished game. But it can be off-putting to some people who don't realise the game is unfinished and the quality will improve. So I can understand their desire to get things into a higher grade of presentation before releasing it, I just wished they had done it before the kickstarter had launched is all.

Also, there are plenty of kickstarters that are just tying to obtain funds for complete products, and do indeed sell their product directly through the medium of kickstarter to start with. So just because start up funds are needed, doesn't mean there isn't a finished product ready to go that is being kickstarted. I wouldn't worry about kickstarter shutting anything down.

[Krulle]

Kickstarter can be used to raise funds to get a finished product into production.
That's why it's most often used to sell products.
You pay in advance, thus allowing the producer to need less money from credits when going into production.

It all sounds to me like the game is finished (debelopment-wise) and won't need much more than the first production down fees.

[Rogbull]

It all sounds to me like the game is finished (debelopment-wise) and won't need much more than the first production down fees.

I wouldn't say that, I think they only decided on putting in a changeable class system a few weeks ago. Which seems crucial enough to revisit more concepts.

[brnforce]

I would like to say to THunt and innuendo: You guys rock! I love that you are responding to these comments and I really hope that any changes that occur lead you to becoming even more successful. It has been wonderful to see the Goblins universe grow the way it has.

[WearsHats]

For those asking about the rules:

That said, we are behind on a few deliverables for those of you who want more information about the rules. Namely, we are setting up a wiki that will contain the entire rulebook for the game, in wiki format. That took a little longer than expected but that should come very soon, and should help answer a lot of questions. I'll personally take the brunt of the criticism on that being late.

So, yes, they're written and the entire rulebook should be available soon.

I'll echo the others that the video should contain more info. I realize it will be hard to record a new one with 3000 miles between Evertide and Thunt, but I encourage you to do something. The video you have is fairly short, so you can tack on snippets of gameplay at Evertide HQ. With the explicit understanding that these are demo/prototype materials. (Though the ones I've seen on Thunt's livestream still looked pretty nice.) That video is your primary pitch to newcomers. You don't have to get into the nitty gritty, but you do need to grab them and give them at least some idea of what you're asking them to fund. You'll lose a lot of potential casual backers if you tell them they have to click through to get more information (and then sift through a long message board thread or an entire wiki to get a simple overview). You may disagree. You're the ones running the show, and you've got more experience than I, but that's my view as someone who has backed a good number of projects on KS and elsewhere.

I'm also concerned by the number of backers it will take to get Thunt traveling. Girl Genius, with overwhelming support, wound up with nearly $400k (4th highest for a comic ever), and they had a little over 4000 backers. I do realize it's expensive to go to a con, but 4000 backers is what it takes to unlock the middle level destination.

[brnforce]

I'm also concerned by the number of backers it will take to get Thunt traveling. Girl Genius, with overwhelming support, wound up with nearly $400k (4th highest for a comic ever), and they had a little over 4000 backers. I do realize it's expensive to go to a con, but 4000 backers is what it takes to unlock the middle level destination.

For that I would say that not all unlockables are meant to be handed out unless there is an extreme effort on the backer's part. These are rewards for milestones so they are supposed to be hard. I would love it if they achieved those goals, but I understand how the game works. If people don't donate enough to Tempts Fate we don't get to see the bonus material.

[Glemp]

Unfortunately I didn't back the project, both because I'm not a tabletop player, and I blew the last of my KS budget on the Girl Genius reprint (you may now address me as Glemp, GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER!). Still, I wish Thunt the best of luck. And hope for a better video.

[illocust]

So we've hit the 60K stretch goal. What the next goal and reward?

[Liesmith]

For every 100% over fully funded, Thunt should do a quick, uncolored, non-canon page of a different character beating the shit out of Goblinslayer. The first page can be Kin. The next one should be Chief.

[WearsHats]

I'm also concerned by the number of backers it will take to get Thunt traveling. Girl Genius, with overwhelming support, wound up with nearly $400k (4th highest for a comic ever), and they had a little over 4000 backers. I do realize it's expensive to go to a con, but 4000 backers is what it takes to unlock the middle level destination.

For that I would say that not all unlockables are meant to be handed out unless there is an extreme effort on the backer's part. These are rewards for milestones so they are supposed to be hard. I would love it if they achieved those goals, but I understand how the game works. If people don't donate enough to Tempts Fate we don't get to see the bonus material.

Well, sure. But:

Girl Genius didn't hit 4000 backers until the last day or so of the campaign, when they'd blown through the second or third round of stretch goals and a $10 pledge got you a whole mess of extra goodies.

Also, those cons would be a great investment for them, giving them ample opportunity to reach thousands of potential new fans.

Unfortunately I didn't back the project, both because I'm not a tabletop player, and I blew the last of my KS budget on the Girl Genius reprint (you may now address me as Glemp, GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER!). Still, I wish Thunt the best of luck. And hope for a better video.

Congrats on the new title, Glemp.

Think you could pitch in a couple of bucks to raise the backer number and get your name in the credits? Just a thought.

So we've hit the 60K stretch goal. What the next goal and reward?

We'll find out soon, I'm sure.

For every 100% over fully funded, Thunt should do a quick, uncolored, non-canon page of a different character beating the shit out of Goblinslayer. The first page can be Kin. The next one should be Chief.

Heh. I'd rather Thunt had time to get the comic up. And work on Tempts. And maybe actually have some time off...

[Glemp]

Unfortunately I didn't back the project, both because I'm not a tabletop player, and I blew the last of my KS budget on the Girl Genius reprint (you may now address me as Glemp, GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER!). Still, I wish Thunt the best of luck. And hope for a better video.

Congrats on the new title, Glemp.

Think you could pitch in a couple of bucks to raise the backer number and get your name in the credits? Just a thought.

Sorry, but, well, I went a little crazy on online ordering and especially Kickstarter over the past year. I'm not in debt or anything, but I need to stay far far away from that site for several weeks while my bank account recovers, and more importantly so I don't notice the Next Big Thing that I need to buy into early.

[innuendo]

Freaking double funded in just over 24 hours.

I'm simply gobsmacked guys. I mean, we knew you guys where some of the most best-est fans around (Tarol said so), but this is stupid. I was sitting in sheer dumbfound-ment today watching the total go up. I'm so at a totality of loss for words that It's really hard to express.

We planned to do well, but you guys are making it really hard to act calmly. And this is Evertide's second Kickstarter, but it's the first I've personally had a hand in designing and running, so all of this is like Christmas every single time I hit refresh on my browser (which lately has been happening a lot).

@ rules stuff

Official rules is, like most things at this point, "as official as it gets." You guys are correct that we are constantly tweaking the game. And as the new stretch goal shows, the class cards we talked about aren't even in the core set yet (we haven't created all the rules and card changes for them yet, because there are a lot to make and a lot to test). So with the cards constantly evolving, and the rules constantly being refined and tweaked, there is a ton going on behind the scenes that I'm trying my hardest to let you guys in on (because you guys deserve it). And all of that is going on in addition to just running the stinking campaign (which is no small feat).

I'm currently getting together some diagrams of the game setup so you can get an idea of how the cards layout. I'm going to edit the rules to be a little more presentable. And then I'm working on getting all of this out to you guys. Oh, and I'm coordinating for the playtest video session I'll be doing as soon as I get my POD copy. So much to do.

In the mean time, keep on being stupendous supporters. And as earnestly as possible: feel free to ask of me anything.

[Sessine]

Oh, and I'm coordinating for the playtest video session I'll be doing as soon as I get my POD copy.

Hurray! That's excellent news.

[innuendo]

Okay, quick update for you guys if you don't see the other thread but I have some diagrams and such! Head over to this post.

We're getting these formatted for KS'er now, but I wanted to get them to you as soon as I had them ready.

[brnforce]

Well, sure. But:

Girl Genius didn't hit 4000 backers until the last day or so of the campaign, when they'd blown through the second or third round of stretch goals and a $10 pledge got you a whole mess of extra goodies.

Also, those cons would be a great investment for them, giving them ample opportunity to reach thousands of potential new fans.

I do agree with that. Those conventions are the perfect place to spread the word around about this game. Although, if THunt is away at conventions when will he be updating the comic!!!!?!?!?!?! I do hope these recent changes to the schedule allow for a much more human comic creator.

[PseudoFenton]

Glad to see those rules updates, and see that we've smashed another milestone. Although I'm curious as to why the milestones (or a subset larger than 1) have not be revealed ahead of time. I'm not even sure if THunt knows what they are (previous comments have indicated that he is not fully aware of every element in relation to the kickstarter, as it is not him who is running it, its evertide games, and tweets like this one don't dispel that reasoning at all).

The reason I bring this up, is both because its a slightly unusual tact to take, most kickstarters define a handful of stretch goals ahead of time, rather than just one. Also the 'community' is meant to be getting involved in this, but there is still very little to see or discuss, a lot of it is being done behind 'closed doors' as it were. Which considering THunt is so transparent with his work process, sharing everything he's doing with the community all the time, well it just seems odd.

Now, call me paranoid (it's common, trust me) but it just looks a little fishy - or, more appropriate, like fishing. Each progressive stretch goals target is only revealed after the last one has been met, which means it can be tailored to how quickly things are being funded rather than what it would take to add those features. Please note I am not accusing anyone of this, but after discussing this with friends they agreed it does seem like a valid concern.

When you consider the last stretch goal was upgrading the four dice that come with the game to be of higher quality, which required an extra 100% funding, you do scratch your head a little. Also, as far as I've gathered, the first draft of rules for Class cards (which is the latest stretch goal) already exist. This addition seems to require mild rebalancing rather than major reworking, it is after all just changing a +1 to a stat to an additional class. The classes are only relevant with some locations/items anyway - and numerous released material seems to already reflect the inclusion of class based rules too. With only 6 new classes there wont need to be very many physical assets added either (there are only 30 level cards currently, so I shouldn't expect more than 30 class cards to be added). So is this addition really worth an extra 100% funding again?

I don't presume to know how these things are worked out, nor if they're a fair assessment of the work required. I can also understand the first stretch goal being a little lacklustre in terms of what is added in-proportion to what has funded it (the dice) because some slack is clearly needed to cover unforeseen costs etc. But I can't help but notice 10 spots for stretch goals, which leads me to conclude there is knowledge of what is to come, and the lack of transparency in what that will cost is unsettling.

Now I trust THunt implicitly, and if it were he who were running this kickstarter I wouldn't even mention any of this - he is a good person and I've never seen him purposefully do a bad thing in the five years I've been following him. However this is not actually his kickstarter, nor his game, it is a company that approached him and offered him tie-in merchandise. I think what I'm trying to delicately say is this: I'm getting a little concerned in the way some of this kickstarter is being run, I'm concerned that THunt isn't fully aware of how everything is being run, and I'm concerned that the fanbase is being exploited simply because they're generous giving people who love THunt and wish to support him.

Therefore, can I propose that stretch goals are revealed ahead of time (they're already colour coded, so no-one will get confused as to what has and hasn't been achieved). Can we get more information on how things are going behind the scenes, more updates on playtests and plans for the future etc. Basically, can evertide games act more like THunt does in his work, as the fanbase is very much use to that, we don't need to see everything (and just because something is said doesn't stop us accepting when things change, it happens), but we're use to being included more. This would also help very much in, you know, including the community in the project - which has been expressed as a main factor in the project already.

(I wish to formally point out now, that I am in no way am accusing anyone of any sort of malicious activity - and I apologise ahead of time for my suspicions. I'm just cynical enough to realise that not everyone is a saint like THunt is - and so would like my suspicions dispelled, as they've been growing steadily.)

[brnforce]

I think, pseudo, that you are confusing kickstarter for a store. The stretch goals are not to cover costs of the rewards, but rather like XBox achievements. They are nice little add ons that they are giving us for free due to the kickstarter being so successful.

[Changes_everything]

And as earnestly as possible: feel free to ask of me anything.

Double cheese and bacon please. Oh, and an Axe of Prissan key fob, with a white working LED in the center, like. Thank you.