Kickstarter Starts Tomorrow! (June 3rd)

[WearsHats]

I sent a message to Evertide asking about the rewards. They say that each reward does indeed include the previous tiers. I was really hoping they'd have been clearer with their descriptions. And maybe put in reward titles.

[Rogbull]

I am a Brassmoon Courtyard Adventurer. That's my reward title. I'm not sure what else you mean, they could plainly state " all of the above is included " but I like to think the reference to previous title works.

[Thunt]

CelineSSauve...

So far, this whole thing seems to be really frustrating for you. I can't change the rewards over at the KS, but what can I do to fix things for you personally?

[CelineSSauve]

CelineSSauve...

So far, this whole thing seems to be really frustrating for you. I can't change the rewards over at the KS, but what can I do to fix things for you personally?

Nothing.

I guess I was spoiled by the OOTS and ZOE projects.

I might just pull out entirely. It's not like you need my support anyway.

[Thunt]

Um... okay. I'm sorry there's nothing I can do to help. I'm not even sure what you're exactly upset about.

But giving how you've snapped at someone here, and said the following to the Evertide people over at the KS page...

"Trust me. That was a very, very clear money grab on your part.

No uncertainty on that point at all."

You're clearly not happy with this Kickstarter. I'm really sorry that I can't help you, but it sounds like you definitely should pull your money back out. But can I respectfully ask, please stop being mean to others. Evertide has no interest in "money grabbing" and the people here don't deserve to be barked at for trying to help.

If there's anything I can do, please let me know.

[Thunt]

And now you've said this over at the KS page...

"I'm just going to pull my funds. Apparently my views on being forced to pay for something I don't want in order to support what I'd thought was a good project were very invalid views.
Enough people told me so, anyway."

Everyone's trying to help you, and I even stepped forward to offer whatever help I could. I would have gladly just sent you a shirt for nothing (I think that's what you're upset about, but like I said, I'm not exactly sure). But now you're trash talking on the KS page? Why? I mean... what on Earth are you doing?

Please just pull your money out and stop trying to throw negativity into the project.

[Arydra]

Wow... It is already at 2/3rds of the way complete. This is kind of amazing to watch.

I trusted this enough to throw $250 at it. If this was a perfect world I would like to get the tablecloth as well, but I don't think I could afford another $150. Can not wait for December.

[brnforce]

I am a $55 backer! I do agree with the posters saying that the kickstarter video was bad. If you aren't already a goblinite, you will have no idea what this game is. It almost stopped me from backing.

Edit to add: Sorry if that came off as negative. Just trying to help make this perfect!

[SeeAMoose]

Well of darkness adventurer!

I would also echo the sentiments that the video needs work, if possible, I would recommend including some video of the game play.

[Alvarin]

The game is aimed at all populations, not only long term Goblins readers, but anyone outside this group will have NO IDEA what this Kickstarter is about...

This will be my very first game of the sorts, can't wait till December

[WearsHats]

Woo! Already up to 37k!

Really looking forward to the game. Just wish I had people to play with locally. Luckily, there's you guys! I call GM in the Games forum!

[leopardessmoon]

WOOO! I got my $55 pledge in!

[I'mBob]

I hate shipping costs. They suck. I wish there was a Jade Teapot but for items.

[Krulle]

I hate shipping costs. They suck. I wish there was a Jade Teapot but for items.

This. I expect the game will be slightly more expensive in the shops here in Europe, but it will be without shipping fee.
In total, most games end cheaper in the shops in Europe, than via KS and shipping.
But that's also due to the money Kickstarter Inc. (the company behind the webpage) takes from the project for their infrastructure.
And the money the payment processors take.

I've stopped throwing money at KS projects.
I visit more the local crowd funding platforms specialised for Netherlands (BeNeLux) and Germany.

[Sessine]

Welp. I'm a backer, in for $99 (plus $15 because I'm in Canada.) This is more than I ought to spend on a game, but I figure:

• I owe Thunt something, 'cause I've been enjoying the comic for years and it's about time I gave something back. I don't know how much of the money earned by the game after it's created will find its way into his pockets, but it's pretty obvious this project is close to his heart. Having it take off will make him very, very happy. That's good enough for me!

• I have a grandson who's going to be twelve in August, so this is (nominally) a present for him. Grandparents are allowed to overspend on way-cool presents for their grandkids, yeah?

A couple of comments on the Kickstarter presentation, though.

• The video is important. The one that's there now is really lame. Thunt, I love you to pieces, but what needs to be there is something that will give people some idea of why the game will be huge fun to play and they totally have to own it.

• Sorry... I don't have a Facebook account, and I'm not going to make one. Not even for Goblins. You'll have to reach those 'likes on Facebook' goals without me.

[I'mBob]

I wish you were my grandpa.

[PseudoFenton]

Everyone's trying to help you, and I even stepped forward to offer whatever help I could. I would have gladly just sent you a shirt for nothing (I think that's what you're upset about, but like I said, I'm not exactly sure).

I'm not going to justify trash talking, but I think CelineSSauve is trying to ask for a new tier.

Currently there is the Frosted Claw $99 tier which gives the Base game, SoW expansion and the Play map. The next up is the Well of Darkness $151 (which is $52 more) that adds Stickers and T-shirt. The next up after that is the Maze of Many $252 tier that adds every expansion.

What CelineSSauve wants (I think) is a new (lets call it) 'Labyrinth' Tier, costed at $200 that includes the Frosted Claw, and adds every expansion like the the Maze of Many does, but does not include the Stickers and Tshirt that the Well of Darkness adds (and the Maze inherits). The cost they suggested comes from the Well being $52 more than the Claw, so the Labyrinth should be $52 less than the Maze (ie $200).

I think their problem therefore is that you cant just get the game - you have to get the extra promo stuff. Which may be nice, but you have to pay for it and if you don't want it (or think its too much to cough up for) then its a waste of money. So basically the lack of options is inflating the required pledge amount by adding in lots of things that have value, but you don't value to the pledger. Which I think has led to mud-slinging and the phrase "money grab".


Now I'd like to point out that I myself have pledged at the Maze level, and thought similar when I saw how the pledges were tiered. I don't agree its a 'money grab', but it is an annoying threshold that will prevent pledgers getting exactly what they want because of having to pay for things they don't really want or need.

The same can be said for the lack of signed goods (which is really not essential in any way, and its quite presumptuous to expect easy availability of such a boon, I understand) - I stayed up really late last night on the off chance that some would be available (my backing of previous kickstarters has taught me that these sorts of 'rewards' sell quickly and are highly limited, understandably). Sadly the only way to get anything signed is to pledge at the highest level tier ($1,111) which I really don't have. This is disappointing because I'd love to throw more money at this kickstarter to get a signed copy of something (game, print, whatever) as due to circumstance and where I live I basically never go to conventions so kickstarters are my sole means of getting signed merchandise.


Now, its also prudent to point out that the kickstarter has been running less than a day, and these sorts of things can often be added in later on. Kickstarters frequently expand their list of options and available extras as they go on, both to promote further pledging and because they can start getting more solid plans as they're often fully (and over) funded. So perhaps people are getting a little too hasty in their reactions.

So let's all just bask in the fact that we fully funded the kickstarter in one tenth of the time they set as the limit for Kickasso, and look forward to all the other goodies and extras (*cough* like goblinslayer and signed goods *cough*) that are surely going to coming days and weeks.

[PseudoFenton]

Incidentally, (I say in a new post because the last one was going on a bit), will there be a way to get more than one Personalised Badge in a single pledge? As my fianc├®e and myself are both pledging together and would enjoy having one each, but she doesn't want to make a separate Kickstarter account just for it.

Also, the Badge says "your favourite character", does this mean any character from the comic, even ones that are not currently playable characters for the game?

[stevedj]

I've got lots to say, but I'll start here:

Incidentally, (I say in a new post because the last one was going on a bit), will there be a way to get more than one Personalised Badge in a single pledge? As my fianc├®e and myself are both pledging together and would enjoy having one each, but she doesn't want to make a separate Kickstarter account just for it.

In large part, Kickstarter forbids it -- at least when listed as obvious tiers. That is, you cannot have tier A with 1 item, and tier B with 2 of same item. If one tries it, Kickstarter pulls the plug (after some warnings, I believe).

Now, its also prudent to point out that the kickstarter has been running less than a day, and these sorts of things can often be added in later on. Kickstarters frequently expand their list of options and available extras as they go on, both to promote further pledging and because they can start getting more solid plans as they're often fully (and over) funded. So perhaps people are getting a little too hasty in their reactions.

And herein lies THunt's problem -- he has advertised in the main post that every tier includes every item above it. So, if he now were to add another tier (example, the proposed $200 tier), some people would expect that $200 would include everything above it in the $152 tier -- thus now undercutting the $252 tier.

In other Kickstarters I've pledged, the "name" of the tier was listed in ALL CAPS. Then other tiers could repeat the ALL CAPS making it very clear that you were getting the new tier plus the specified other tier(s). Because that wasn't done here, I can understand why people are confused. Yes, even I was confused at first, and had to read over the list a couple of times to figure out what was going on -- and I've supported Kickstarters before.

Before I continue on with my ... issues ... I will proclaim here that I have backed this project. But only for $11 for now (may change later, haven't decided).

But I must echo what others have said -- that intro video is... CRAP! With the opening credits, and audio, I was all geared up for a fantastic production video showing the game being played, or perhaps even a brief appearance (animated for a few seconds??) of a goblin or something. But NO -- just two guys ... talking. And not even talking about THE GAME. The whole purpose of the Kickstarter.

Now clearly the Kickstarter is a success... it is already funded... but after all of us regular Goblinites have supported, what then? It is going to be a REAL CHALLENGE to get non-Goblin potential-backers to support the project, as it really isn't presented well. If I tell my friends to go support, they do NOT have the attention-span to go hunt down all that information. They will watch the video, try to make sense of the images below, and more than likely turn away.

While some things can be fixed in updates (since an update page can be linked to social media, giving "strangers" a better first-look), fixing problems with the tiers is impossible (as long as a single backer has a tier picked, it cannot be edited). You might be able to edit you main post, to be less all-encompassing, to allow adding some in-between tiers...???

I truly dislike having such a negative post here (and NO, I'm not putting any comments like this on Kickstarter - I'm now a BACKER, and any comments I might leave there will be supportive ). I am still a fan of Goblins, just was a bit disappointed following such a big buildup of anticipation.

[PseudoFenton]

In large part, Kickstarter forbids it -- at least when listed as obvious tiers. That is, you cannot have tier A with 1 item, and tier B with 2 of same item. If one tries it, Kickstarter pulls the plug (after some warnings, I believe).

Although true, it is frequently the case that you can informally 'bolt on' an optional extra by pledging the difference, and filling in a form to say which bits you'd bolted on when the kickstarter ends. I've done so a few times before, its hardly unusual and certainly allowable.

And herein lies THunt's problem -- he has advertised in the main post that every tier includes every item above it. So, if he now were to add another tier (example, the proposed $200 tier), some people would expect that $200 would include everything above it in the $152 tier -- thus now undercutting the $252 tier.

In other Kickstarters I've pledged, the "name" of the tier was listed in ALL CAPS. Then other tiers could repeat the ALL CAPS making it very clear that you were getting the new tier plus the specified other tier(s). Because that wasn't done here, I can understand why people are confused. Yes, even I was confused at first, and had to read over the list a couple of times to figure out what was going on -- and I've supported Kickstarters before.

Sorry to say this, but I was looking at this kickstarter from 3 minutes after it launched, and it has never said the "all of the above" bit. This problem has been had in other kickstarters, but GAR pledge levels cite the other pledge levels by name (with iterative reference ie, B includes A, C includes B (which in turn includes A), D includes C (which in turn includes B (which in turn includes A) ), etcetera). All caps may have helped a little here though, it does seem to be the de-facto convention for kickstarter now.

There is no issue with doing exactly what I said in my post, making a new pledge tier with its own unique name, and having it include a much lower tier so that it skips over some of the potential extras. Tables of rewards can be drawn up (look at the old OOTS kickstarter for excessive but exceptionally clear use of tables) if there is a fear of people getting confused.

But I must echo what others have said --
I am still a fan of Goblins, just was a bit disappointed following such a big buildup of anticipation.

Yeah, I have to agree with some of this. The video shows no footage of play, or even the game itself (noone minds prototype demos on kickstarters, it is sort of the point of kickstarter to take prototypes and actualise them afterall). There's very little discussion on the game other than in vague overview, and the write-up under it all is also quite heavily packed with details that don't really highlight the game as much as the kickstarter and its ties with the comic. Now of cause you're going to get a lot of people backing this because they want to support the comic and Thunt himself (I'm one of them) - but there are also people who are going to want to back it because its a game - that is what is being sold after all.

So yes, having so little in the way of details about the game is disheartening (more so as I'm a huge boardgame fan and would actually like some in depth details on it). It's also perplexing as a point which has been mentioned repeatedly is the desire to involve the community in the creation of the game, but we can't very well produce feedback on a game we can't see (and unless we contribute $700+ we also wont be able to build a prototype after the kickstarter has finished in order to comment on the game that way).

There are many wasted opportunities here, which will hopefully be quickly rectified, and produce not only a good game, but a worthy product to carry the Goblins tie in material. There are many games out there (*Cough* Princess bridge boardgame *cough*) which are certainly unworthy to be tied into the content they are, and are clearly just a means to exploit money from an unwitting fanbase, and I'd hate to have this game go that way and feel I'd have to distance myself from something that should be awesome.

[brnforce]

But I must echo what others have said -- that intro video is... CRAP! With the opening credits, and audio, I was all geared up for a fantastic production video showing the game being played, or perhaps even a brief appearance (animated for a few seconds??) of a goblin or something. But NO -- just two guys ... talking. And not even talking about THE GAME. The whole purpose of the Kickstarter.

I think a small animated portion followed up by an explanation of the game (pitching it to someone with no idea what this is) would have been perfect. I know it is too late for the animation, but just a quick overview of what Goblins is and what the game will actually be like would make a world of difference when it is at a couple weeks into this and have stalled with the backers.

[innuendo]

@All of you

First and easily most important: You guys seriously, and I mean this, kick ass. I can't thank you all enough for the support and feedback.

@The tiers

The way kickstarter works, it is not correct to assume each tier is priced exactly like it would be in a store. And subtracting the difference in price between two tiers does not equal the cost of the goods between those two tiers. I think this makes sense to most people, so I'll leave it at that.

@The game information

We had a lot of discussion about the game information and we looked at a lot of kickstarters (especially Mr. Card Game our previous one) and the people who want to know about the game mechanics are actually a pretty small minority. Not that they aren't important, they are super important, which is why i've been hosting the QA for a few weeks now and will continue. But we wanted to make the KS video about the people behind the project, but in our eyes that's what you're supporting.

That said, we are behind on a few deliverables for those of you who want more information about the rules. Namely, we are setting up a wiki that will contain the entire rulebook for the game, in wiki format. That took a little longer than expected but that should come very soon, and should help answer a lot of questions. I'll personally take the brunt of the criticism on that being late.

Also, As Tarol has mentioned on twitter, we have ordered POD copies of the most recent version of the game for testing and we will be doing some live streams of me playing the game. This should happen later this week or early next week. Like most things POD it is taking a little longer for the company to produce them than estimated, and that's okay. But we should have that soon. We didn't want to demo the game before this because the cards were all sleeved and printed on paper. This is not a proper representation of the game, and as such we saved that "super early alpha access" for people who caught tarol's live stream a few weeks ago.

@ All of you again

It's worth restating, I simply can't tell you how awesome this has been and I am so personally indebted to each of you. I hope the game lives up to all of your expectations, and please keep sharing the good news so we can smash through these stretch goals. We have some really cool ones planned and I hope you get to see them all!

[Thunt]

Thanks for your input everyone! I just emailed all of this to Evertide. I'm sure they can improve most, if not all of the things being addressed here. I'll keep you posted.

[Thunt]

Innuendo...

I think people are more interested in something more vague than actual game mechanics being explained. For instance, if we could include some shots of the cards or a shot of someone adding a level up card and then an item card to a character card, that few seconds would explain quite a bit about what to expect from the game. What do you think?

[innuendo]

Yup, all of that stuff is what we have planned for the wiki. It will include gameplay shots, rules explanations, the whole 9 yards. It's literally number one on my todo list when I get home today.

and I'm working with the guys to make sure we filter that information as quickly as possible back into the KS'er page.

Keep it coming guys. We can only get better from your comments.