Kickstarter Starts Tomorrow! (June 3rd)

[innuendo]

I'm sorry you think we haven't been clear enough.

To attempt to allay some of your suspicions, let me explain where my head personally was at in regards to revealing stretch goals. And i'll say this on the forums because I suspect you guys will be able to discern my intentions.

I really like to be prepared and think of all the stuff we could potentially add to the game. This means I've, with the other guys at Evertide, have already mapped out huge amounts of stretch goals (more than you see on the map even). I'll say flatly the prices and tiers for these are all set and will not change. But if you launch a kick starter with a goal, and tell people you have stretch goals for 20 times that goal in your head, it wrongly appears that you artificially lowered your initial funding goal.

This couldn't be further from the truth. However it could appear that way and I wanted to avoid that appearance (you'll notice that no matter what we do someone could infer something was afoot). The 30k was what we needed (the volume and the funding) to create a fully playable version of the game with the cards we mapped out as core to the experience. Now, the math on reaching that goal excludes some premium components and features to the game because, and I mean this honestly, we didn't know with a certainty what the response would be. It's easy to look back now and say "well I guess we could have increased the goal and have listed some more stuff as core" but that's monday quarterbacking. I, more than anything, wanted to see this game made (for myself and the community) because this is the first project i'll have published with my name on it. That means we set a realistic goal that we felt we could hit and made the game fit that goal.

Now of course we have more information, you guys have been rabid with your support and that means all that stuff that we had mapped out for "wouldn't it be cool if we could" get to come back. I'll restate something I said above, the cost and scale of doing changes to the core mechanics of the game this late into the process can not simply be measured in the cost of goods. That's a fraction of what it costs to create a game like this. I'll use the character cards as an example. We had that idea literally 2 weeks ago. The game was tested and the card pool was set for the core experience at that time. Adding a core mechanic to the game requires reviewing all the cards in the set again. Cutting some, adding others, and importantly retesting the entire balance of the experience.

These things take time to do right and that time is expressed in the cost of the stretch goal. In the case of new custom dice, premium components like that have a huge up front cost, and to ensure we don't add something to the game that ends up hurting us we used the stretch goal to ensure the game is popular enough to spend the money on creating a custom die mold. In neither case was the Cost of Goods the only thing we factor into the tiers.

::Ninja Edit::

Wow, I actually really want that key fob...

[Changes_everything]

I'm sorry you think we haven't been clear enough.

I didn't say that, in case you were referring to my post. You've been perfectly clear, and preparing like you did for an unknown amount of response is... simply responsible. Shows you're not simply tossing the product on the market. I very much like your approach.

Wow, I actually really want that key fob...

Good boy......

[PseudoFenton]

I think, pseudo, that you are confusing kickstarter for a store. The stretch goals are not to cover costs of the rewards, but rather like XBox achievements. They are nice little add ons that they are giving us for free due to the kickstarter being so successful.

I think kickstarters can cater to a lot of different marketing methods, and not all of them are "unlocked achievement: arbitrary thank you" styled. There are many which do indeed place the value of the stretch goals to cover the extras that are being added - its sort of impossible not to factor this is as those extras still have to be paid for. Yes they're still extras but its like expansion sets being built alongside the basics, they save time running a separate drive but there are still basic grades of capital that needs to be generated to supplement them.

I really like to be prepared and think of all the stuff we could potentially add to the game. This means I've, with the other guys at Evertide, have already mapped out huge amounts of stretch goals (more than you see on the map even). I'll say flatly the prices and tiers for these are all set and will not change. But if you launch a kick starter with a goal, and tell people you have stretch goals for 20 times that goal in your head, it wrongly appears that you artificially lowered your initial funding goal.

Completely understandable that you didn't want to look like you were expecting too much or undervaluing the product in its initial goal. However if you've already mapped these out, with no intention of changing them, then can we now see a few more of them? They act as great incentives to push towards as you may not care about better dice, but you really want to multi-class, so you pledge more in the hopes to get to a much higher stretch goal than simply the next in line.

I'll restate something I said above, the cost and scale of doing changes to the core mechanics of the game this late into the process can not simply be measured in the cost of goods.

These things take time to do right and that time is expressed in the cost of the stretch goal. ... In neither case was the Cost of Goods the only thing we factor into the tiers.

I completely understand this, and I don't mean to suggest that all it takes is a few more bits of cardboard and you're done. My concern was that of the appearance of your actions, not the rationality and justifiability of them. I'm sorry if it looked like all I was saying was "why does this cost so much, its only x" - that was not my goal at all. My goal was to request greater transparency in your actions and intentions so that the community could weigh in with their opinions and know what to expect.

Although I do appreciate the time and effort you took to justify your actions to this point, can I reissue the same request again? As an answer as to if you were were going to show more stretch goals etc, wasn't actually given.

[innuendo]

We had discussed having the next couple be revealed at a time, but haven't made a decision yet. So the answer your question as directly as possible: We haven't decided yet, but are still discussing.

For that matter, we are discussing like ten different things a day about the campaign, so I appreciate the feedback (sincerely) and I hope you know that.

[LAYF]

I must say.. I'm really excited to see how much we get of extra stuff, and more, what plans you have with all the stretch goals.. i hope we reach many of them....

Right now.. I love how you have handled the Fumbles/kickass'o card... really, and i hope i get to have it in my first game...

Thanks for making this much effort to bring the best comic on the internet into a new media that it so much deserves and even more is just right for....

Best regards and hopes for the continuing development, -LAYF-

[PseudoFenton]

We haven't decided yet, but are still discussing.

For that matter, we are discussing like ten different things a day about the campaign, so I appreciate the feedback (sincerely) and I hope you know that.

Okay, thanks for the update on that.

Also thanks for saying you do appreciate the feedback. I hate the be the one who's rocking the boat and asking the awkward questions, I don't want to cause a fuss at all. So although I don't think the things I've been saying have been invalid concerns or requests, I have felt a little but like an aggressor, which is not what I want to be. As I've said before, I've supported the kickstarter at a high level, I love thunts work and I don't wish to undermine any related projects he's involved in - so the feedback that my feedback is appreciated is also appreciated! (that's a fun sentence to say).

[SamWiser]

I know that this is off topic, but if THunt is reading this, I would buy 1,000 of those Axe of Prissan key chains. Ok, not 1,000, but at least two or three. Please start making them.

[brnforce]

I think kickstarters can cater to a lot of different marketing methods, and not all of them are "unlocked achievement: arbitrary thank you" styled. There are many which do indeed place the value of the stretch goals to cover the extras that are being added - its sort of impossible not to factor this is as those extras still have to be paid for. Yes they're still extras but its like expansion sets being built alongside the basics, they save time running a separate drive but there are still basic grades of capital that needs to be generated to supplement them.

"When you consider the last stretch goal was upgrading the four dice that come with the game to be of higher quality, which required an extra 100% funding, you do scratch your head a little. Also, as far as I've gathered, the first draft of rules for Class cards (which is the latest stretch goal) already exist. This addition seems to require mild rebalancing rather than major reworking, it is after all just changing a +1 to a stat to an additional class. The classes are only relevant with some locations/items anyway - and numerous released material seems to already reflect the inclusion of class based rules too. With only 6 new classes there wont need to be very many physical assets added either (there are only 30 level cards currently, so I shouldn't expect more than 30 class cards to be added). So is this addition really worth an extra 100% funding again?"

You are stating in^^ that you consider the double $$ stretch goal as the cost of producing the dice. Yes, the added money raised pays for those dice, but the dice don't cost the extra $30,000. It's like a PBS or NPR telethon, the tote doesn't actually cost the $80. The whole reason why I am responding to you is that many of the primary complaints (mostly not you!!! sorry if it seems as though I'm singling you out) that I have seen at least seem to come from this basic misunderstanding. I didn't pay $55 for the game. I donated $55 to the project and they are giving me the game and some other bonuses for free. If enough people like stuff on facebook, I get other free stuff too! I won't go and say that one extra character isn't worth 4,000 likes, because that isn't a store either. You know what I'm rambling about?

[LAYF]

So.. for those who have not seen it. Thunt have made a How to play video..
it is Here on the KickStarter page

Best regards -LAYF-

[SeeAMoose]

I think we're holding innuendo to an unfair standard. I'm unaware of any other webcomic artist who is as open and actively involved with his fans as Thunt. More transparency is always nice, but some surprises can be nice too.

[illocust]

So.. for those who have not seen it. Thunt have made a How to play video..
it is Here on the KickStarter page

Best regards -LAYF-

I really like that video. It clarified everything in a very nice way. I hope when the kickstarter is finished that video will still be somewhere easy to find on YouTube, so I can point my friends towards it before calling them over to play.

[Product Placement]

Man, oh man. 6 people have gone for the $1.111 pledge. Gotta hand it to the fan community; there are some well off and generous people that support this comic.

[LAYF]

So.. for those who have not seen it. Thunt have made a How to play video..
it is Here on the KickStarter page

Best regards -LAYF-

I really like that video. It clarified everything in a very nice way. I hope when the kickstarter is finished that video will still be somewhere easy to find on YouTube, so I can point my friends towards it before calling them over to play.

it's on youtube allready.. the Kickstarter has an embeded link to youtube....

Go here for the youtube version

Best regards -LAYF-

[stevedj]

So.. for those who have not seen it. Thunt have made a How to play video..
it is Here on the KickStarter page

Best regards -LAYF-

Yes, found the video yesterday on KS. It was a wonderful addition to the main page. But just to be clear, it isn't quite a How-to-play video, it is more of a How-the-cards-work video. But I recognize it was just a quick video that THunt threw together (fixed camera position and all), so I can understand there wasn't space/time to lay out cards showing: player 1 does this, player 2 does this, etc. Maybe that can be in the "next" video?

I know there it talk of a soon-to-be-made play test video, but I'm worried that will have the camera too far away from the cards (just showing the entire table at once...???) Something in between would be best, I think. LIke THunt's video, but just a bit wider angle, showing two players' card layout and just a rough example of a few turns between them.

P.S. To be clear, the video was great, and I appreciate it. Now, on to video #2...

[Glemp]

Oh, fine. I went there and chucked in $2. Now, hopefully that will be the VERY LAST ohhhey a new up-and coming comic with exclusive pre-order deals...

[SeeAMoose]

I...
I...
I won one of the favorite quote contest cards... I... ummm...

[SamWiser]

Congrats!!

[WearsHats]

Congrats, Moose!

[Reirrac]

Yay, I like when prizes are won by awesome people ^^

[innuendo]

Oh Really Moose? Did we not mention the bylaw of the subtext that states people who are nice people on the forums can't win anything? I'll inform the authorities post haste and they'll be there to arrest you. Also you'll need to resign as "nice person on the forums."

I'm sorry, it's out of my hands.

(psst, which one did you win? I'm curious.)

[Causes_Chaos]

I...
I...
I won one of the favorite quote contest cards... I... ummm...

Awesome! Congratulations!

[LAYF]

Congrat Moose.. and like innuendo (and every one else i guess) im currius, what one?

[SeeAMoose]

Bah, I thought I posted it already. I got the under armor one.

[LAYF]

Just oped my pledge.. I really want more goodies

only 813 dollars from the 150k mark and deck dividers.... I wonder if we will hit 180k...

[innuendo]

with the paypal we are already at 150k. We're writing the update as I type this!

Wooooooo