17th October, 2013: No!

[willpell]

My knowledge of Ayn Rand is pretty limited, but from what I hear, the likeliest explanation is that she was coming from a background where she was just automatically expected to sacrifice everything about herself for the sake of others, because that's just what a proper Russian woman does. So she said "fuck that" and went to great lengths constructing a justification for her desire to be selfish, the way most people just naturally are without needing any justification, as a way of fighting the societal brainwashing she'd been subjected to (thereby creating a whole new form of social brainwashing to subject others to in the next generation). I don't exactly find her admirable, but I do get pretty sick of the Morality Police pushing unrealistic expectations on people and then labelling them "evil" if they try to stand up for themselves. A certain amount of selfishness is healthy, just by virtue of the fact that we are individuals. I for one don't want to live in some conformist hive-mind.

[Glemp]

My knowledge of Ayn Rand is pretty limited, but from what I hear, the likeliest explanation is that she was coming from a background where she was just automatically expected to sacrifice everything about herself for the sake of others, because that's just what a proper Russian woman does. So she said "fuck that" and went to great lengths constructing a justification for her desire to be selfish, the way most people just naturally are without needing any justification, as a way of fighting the societal brainwashing she'd been subjected to (thereby creating a whole new form of social brainwashing to subject others to in the next generation). I don't exactly find her admirable, but I do get pretty sick of the Morality Police pushing unrealistic expectations on people and then labelling them "evil" if they try to stand up for themselves. A certain amount of selfishness is healthy, just by virtue of the fact that we are individuals. I for one don't want to live in some conformist hive-mind.

Here is a summarised biography in comic form, if you wish to learn more. Personally, I also admire her in a way, because it was her novel (Atlas Shrugged) that made me see politics from the individual point of view so to speak. It made my point of view...deeper, I guess, less one-sided and, well, hardkore.

[DragonStryk72]

Okay, can Ruby like, catch a horrific disease and then get attacked by several Mr. Fingers' at once? Seriously? Because that was really awful of her.

Either way, I wish Kin had realized that she HAD indeed had a reason for trusting Minmax. You'd think that her saying that she trusted him because of "this" would be enough evidence that something fell into an oblivion hole. Maybe she'd think that something he had given her had just slipped off into the hole during the climb or something.

This is... This just stupid! She doesn't trust Minmax BECAUSE of the necklace. For the love of God, it's because of the birthday party that Minmax threw her! The necklace is just a product of that. It absolutely does not have power over her trusting him, in and of itself. Failing the party, there's everything that Minmax has done and said to her since then. She is still in love with him, she just missing a single gift she was given.

In order for her to completely forget why she trusts Minmax off of the necklace a)nothing would have had to happen before or since, or else b) She only actually cared about the necklace, and not anything else that has happened before, during, or since. She never actually trusted or cared for Minmax outside of the material object she gave him.

Either MM deserves better than Kin, who is for no known reason incredibly materialistic, or this is just sloppy storytelling. More true to the characters would have been if the necklace had been dropped, and they just kept going along. The catalyst of initial trust is completely irrelevant to the point that everything else has still happened, and everything else around the giving of the necklace still happen, including the crying about the party, Minmax repeatedly showing care, and even deep love for her.

The necklace being given this much power is just so incredibly stupid.

[RidcullyJack]

You must not remember the blog entry where Thunt clarified how the oblivion holes work. It's not that the pants were never manufactured or anything; they're only very shallowly obliterated from reality, and it's not hard to follow a chain of consequentiality and figure out that something must be missing. Plus there's the Forgath's Beard thing. If Kin went and touched the reconstruction gear of the machine again, she'd probably get a glowy green Ken-neclace and remember that it had been lost. (That said, not knowing that she's missing anything, she has no real reason to go touch the gear, as Forgath did accidentally.)

I don't think touching the reconstruction gear will bring it back. It didn't bring back Minmax's boots, pants or backpack when he touched it.

[(^_^)]

/shrug

That's all.


Either there is big change to way oblivion holes work and it really affected their whole relationship by unmaking single item, or Kin really was controlled by that necklace, linking all her good memories of MM with it. If so, it's also possible Ruby did right thing.

[Maur]

Now that I think about it, it's a bit odd that a battle-spec'ed Ruby would have enough Sleight of Hand skill to steal the necklace at all. And I still think the whole "Kin is based on my mom" thing makes it seem strange that Thunt would sabotage the relationshp, even for Rule of Drama.

Now, i am not a writer myself, but from what i heard, they are devious bunch. They will take a trait or event from your life, mingle it together with something from another person and then arrive with a character. Eeeevil.

I guess i wanted to say that Thunt wrote that Kin story is sort of true and based on his mother life, it doesnt mean - necessarily - that the whole Kin is based on her, specifically, her relationship with Minmax. Or not.

[Maur]

Here is a summarised biography in comic form, if you wish to learn more. Personally, I also admire her in a way, because it was her novel (Atlas Shrugged) that made me see politics from the individual point of view so to speak. It made my point of view...deeper, I guess, less one-sided and, well, hardkore.

Ayn Rand was also born on 2nd February?

I feel an urge to take a shower ;p

[warrl]

So, how exactly does that Teapot work? And how many times can one person use it?

Apparently (my suppositions based on what I can remember has been said about it):

You drink tea that was just made in the Teapot, from one of the Teacups. When you are again not carrying/holding either the Teacup nor the Teapot, you think of a specific person and are teleported to that person's location.

And in principle there is no obvious upper limit on how many times one person can use it. Of course, after each use you have to somehow arrange to again be in the same location as the Teapot. This step is left as an exercise for the student.

Why some of those restrictions are necessary: imagine if the tea didn't have to be freshly made or drunk from one of the few Teacups. Let's have the kitchen staff use the Teapot to make a few gallons of tea and put it in canteens. We'll give each of our spies, messengers, and assassins a canteen (and in some cases a supply of not-overly-fragile but cheap and quite anonymous small cups). In the middle of the night we order an assassin to kill someone on the far side of the continent; he drinks a sip of tea, disappears, and reappears a minute later with a bloody knife.

[warrl]

Now, i am not a writer myself, but from what i heard, they are devious bunch. They will take a trait or event from your life, mingle it together with something from another person and then arrive with a character. Eeeevil.

We (writers) are indeed evil, particularly to our characters. I recently kidnapped a main character's mate, and to have any chance of rescuing him she's going to have to poison herself.

[AntMac]

Ayn Rand was also born on 2nd February?

I feel an urge to take a shower ;p

Yeah, I know how you feel. My birthday is on January the 28th. Which was fine till my twentieth birthday, and Challenger was lost.

<----- Always has loved Space and all who sail her.

Now, the thing about the necklace and people saying it isn't enough, and getting grumpy, I can't understand.

Have we not all been struck powerfully by a particular thing someone did, and suddenly realised "Hang on, OMFG ! ! ! I love this person!". Isn't it obvious that the necklace was a magically touching final straw?. And that without it, it was just some human being friendly?. I mean, sans love-token, it was really just Minmax being selfish, the whole thing. He wanted to humanise her so HE would feel content with her along on the team. And in fact he didn't give it to make her love him, the thought never entered his head. Love is silly like that, right fellas?. Smile at the wrong person on the right day, and you have to break it to them that you just want to be friends.

Remember when we read it the first day, the Borhdaey party?. And he gave her a gift 'n everything?. The dumb sap.

Didn't it make YOU love him a little bit, even?.

Seems simple to me, he touched her soul with his own ( goofy, stupid, etc, but ultimately kindly) by giving her a gift. Now that he "didn't" give it to her, she doesn't feel the same way to him. Many of the other things he has done, he would have done ( in fact would have been rewarded for doing, and kinda punished for not doing, XP don't grow on trees, right?) for anyone in his adventuring party. He would have saved Forgarth under the trees, no love involved.

look at it again, the expressions on her face*.

http://www.goblinscomic.org/09242010-2/

* Thunt. Mate. Her beautiful and oh so expressive cute little touching face ! You rock.

[DragonStryk72]

Now, the thing about the necklace and people saying it isn't enough, and getting grumpy, I can't understand.

Have we not all been struck powerfully by a particular thing someone did, and suddenly realised "Hang on, OMFG ! ! ! I love this person!". Isn't it obvious that the necklace was a magically touching final straw?. And that without it, it was just some human being friendly?. I mean, sans love-token, it was really just Minmax being selfish, the whole thing. He wanted to humanise her so HE would feel content with her along on the team. And in fact he didn't give it to make her love him, the thought never entered his head. Love is silly like that, right fellas?. Smile at the wrong person on the right day, and you have to break it to them that you just want to be friends.

To the point that I forget and immediately discount every single other thing that they did and said to establish and maintain that trust? If my mom hadn't made me the baby blanket I still would remember everything else that established our relationship.

Remember when we read it the first day, the Borhdaey party?. And he gave her a gift 'n everything?. The dumb sap.

Didn't it make YOU love him a little bit, even?.

The birthday party did, but for a moment, remove the necklace. Isn't it special in and of itself? Then look at every single thing he's done since, or I don't know, how about when he jumped a higher level character he was in the middle of idolizing the second he realized what he'd done to Kin, not even knowing her yet?

Seems simple to me, he touched her soul with his own ( goofy, stupid, etc, but ultimately kindly) by giving her a gift. Now that he "didn't" give it to her, she doesn't feel the same way to him. Many of the other things he has done, he would have done ( in fact would have been rewarded for doing, and kinda punished for not doing, XP don't grow on trees, right?) for anyone in his adventuring party. He would have saved Forgarth under the trees, no love involved.

look at it again, the expressions on her face*.

http://www.goblinscomic.org/09242010-2/

* Thunt. Mate. Her beautiful and oh so expressive cute little touching face ! You rock.

Way to discount him jumping Goblinslayer. Or did we forget that bit? Without a second thought, hesitation, or regret, he attacked a person he knew to be of higher level and power than himself, because what he did was wrong. How does that NOT establish trust? How does them adventuring together, and pushing through the Maze of Many now not count as reasons to trust Minmax?

You're making our point for us. Anyone that has been around Min for any amount of time realizes that he would take an arrow for his companions, so how can you NOT trust him, after everything they've been through together? Oh right, we would, and even if a single point of establishment were removed, there's a dozen other poignant moments to choose from. According to Thunt, Kin would still remember everything except the necklace, including the emotions around it. That's how it worked every other time the oblivion holes have been used like that. So her crying and looking up at Min? Still remembered.

The birthday party? Still there, even without the necklace.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/09242010-2/

Standing up to GS? Still there.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/03032010/

Respecting her boundaries? Still there.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/02082011-2/

Points where she got past said boundary? Still there.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/03112011/
http://www.goblinscomic.org/04242012/

How about bonding over idiotic humor? Still there.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/07262011/

Standing up against Psimax for her? Still there.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/01032012/

In the trees? Still there.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/04132012/

And then, there's this two-parter:
http://www.goblinscomic.org/01132012/
http://www.goblinscomic.org/04272013/

Min jumping down into a pit, with the absolute assumption he would die in order to protect her not even one day earlier? still there.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/03062013/

Yeah, one single item was forgotten, not every single moment around that, before that, and after that. I mean, lord, I even skipped a bunch of stuff, any one of which can be a catalyst for trust.

[AntMac]

Yeah, one single item was forgotten, not every single moment around that, before that, and after that. I mean, lord, I even skipped a bunch of stuff, any one of which can be a catalyst for trust.

Wow, gently does it, no one was attacking you, you know.

And, reading everything you said, sure, that was a lot of trust he earnt. Maybe she ought to have trusted him.

But my point was that the necklace could have, seemed to have, really touched her, maybe to the point of love for this strange goofy human. Could have been the straw that touched the snake-girls heart. And without it, she might easily and understandably feel different about EVERY other thing Minmax ever did for her.

[jakesdad]

Just going to add my 2 cents here at the risk of being redundant.

Definitely a clever twist with Ruby's scheme. Even if asked, she won't be able to remember what she did. A perfect alibi!

However the necklace does not wipe out MinMax rescuing Kin's scaly butt from the growing trees/GoblinSlayer nightmare, followed by his sincere apology. That is a pretty good reason for Kin to trust MinMax. Sure, the affection might be mitigated, but the trust should still be there.

Also, kind of feel dumb. I was sure Kin would return with MinMax and Forgath, but now she plans to stay with the All-Kin party, gain some experience, then claim the Jade Teapot and return back to their dimension alone.

One other stray thought. Would Kin or MinMax be able to figure out their memory has been tampered with? None of the 3 Kins nor ScorpionKin, nor any of the Kins he fought in the Tower room had a "K-E-N" necklace. So there is nothing in their experience that would point them to that clue. I don't think their vision was good enough to pick up that detail from the first room of the Maze of Many where they could see their competitors. Hmmmm. I wonder if this was deliberate planning by Thunt? To not have any contacted Kins possess a KEN necklace?

[RidcullyJack]

Even if they had seen another Kin's KEN necklace, since there are more Kins without one that wouldn't really tell our Kin that she used to have one.

I think what we might see is Kin staying with 3K in the MoM for a bit longer, but eventually figuring out that she did love Minmax, and using the jade teapot to go back to him. Since no time passes within the MoM, she can level up and still be with Minmax again, very soon (relative to the 156 timeline).

[wyrmbear]

I made the utter mistake of reading this after just eating breakfast. I am nauseous, ill, and tearing up. I've never in my life of reading comics, not even the first "Death of Superman" felt this way about any fictional character. Maybe it's because there's a lot of parallels to my own life experiences. Maybe it's because my name is Ken, and I once gave my wife an lettered necklace like that. Maybe it's because I've been Falcon Punched right in the heart like this before.

Thunt, you magnificent bastard.

On a side note to that bit of praise, I'd like to quote Stewie Griffin, quoting some other movie... "Well, I guess tonight is the night bitches die." In reference to Ruby's actions. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, it's our actions that make the journey. Ruby has committed another form of rape upon her otherworld self, and the sentence should be no less than death, at the hands of Kore.

[noir]

Man. Man. Ruby took hold of Kin's leash, is what she did. I would just like to point that out. As much as it is frequently said that rape is not about the sexual act so much as the feeling of helplessness, I posit that Ruby just took Goblinslayer's place as holder of the leash. And Kin doesn't even know it. She even said it herself "you wear two leashes" and she took one of those leashes to use.

I'm gonna posit that as 'evil', even if she only meant to help. She took away Kin's choice.

However, I don't think this will end badly. As others have said, there's a dozen other major events, and even more minor things every moment, that continue to show that he's worth trusting. She lost the *symbol* of that trust, the thing she could look at and touch, and say, 'This is why,' but not the trust itself. She's doubting herself because all these feelings of trust and emotion are linked to the necklace...

The necklace is a mnemonic. Without that mnemonic, she's having trouble linking together all her reasons. Her brain just got a big hole in it... as that hole scabs over and heals, she'll re-make the connections ... she just needs time to do so. And this is the worst time to do so. Don't say it doesn't make sense, because it does - our memories are triggered by associations, and when those associations suddenly are attached to nothing ... what she's feeling is EXACTLY what she said.

"Why do I trust you?"

She still trusts him, but she doesn't know WHY she trusts him. And as a result, she suddenly doesn't trust HERSELF because all these things she was feeling are attached through something that isn't THERE anymore. Something's missing in her head and she doesn't know what...

But Kin is also the person who, after a little bit of time and confusion, realized that boots and pants were being thrown into an oblivion hole. I don't think she'll let go of this, but will try to figure out why her mind is suddenly such a strange place, and realize perhaps not exactly what happened, but will realize that something happened, something important, and that Ruby and the oblivion holes are probably at fault.

[ForgetsOldName]

Next strip:

"Well Kin if we must part, there's something I keep thinking I should do for you. You need a proper Birtpdee present."

[dire18]

I think my major issue with this update is that is makes me feel like all the other relationship building and character building moments that have transpired between MM and Kin are just a total wash and apparently mean nothing to either Kin or the storyline. Consider it this way: if the comic itself had never originally included the necklace, but we still had all the other MM/Kin experiences exactly as they are currently written, wouldn't we as an audience still find justification for her feelings for him? I'd personally find a guy saving my life (more than once) more meaningful than some necklace he gave me at the start of our relationship (and I'm saying this from my female perspective, but I assume the same sentiment holds for you menfolk as well). If that's the moment when I first began to realize he is a non-scummy guy, than okay - but look at this whole host of other reasons he gave me to reinforce and strengthen my ability to trust him.

I just ultimately feel this is indeed weak storytelling, and it's so overt to me that I don't get any emotional reaction from the page itself. It wouldn't matter to me so much if I didn't have the suspicion that this is probably going to be a large part of the plot immediately going forward.

[Xavier78]

This update was really stupid. It doesn't work no matter how some of you try to justify it. Kin would not have reacted this way. The Necklace was only a small part of the trust and love she had. One of the First times this Comic has pissed me off in such a way.

[sunphoenix]

Well.. I know for certain... if/when Kyn finds out what Ruby did and why... she will turn that love she feels for the "Kynsom Collective" to Hate for one particular Ruby. This is just as bad as controlling Kyn with the collar - worse in fact as it takes away memories and emotions associated with those memories she has live and experienced her against her will!

As if to say, "You don't have the right or personal choice to live your life you own way - so I'm taking that life's choice of your's away from you cause I don't like what you chose, as they don't favor what I WANT out of you! Because YOUR life is not important enough to me to make me let you live it your way!! MY life and MY choices are far more important than your happiness or your own chosen destiny!!!"

VERY EVIL.

[asdfasdf]

I don't think she deserves to die, because

a) She is a traumatised victim of violence, basically is slightly less than capable of rational thought on the topic of "Kins being trusting of males". In a real way she isn't capable of being blamed for this, [shortened quote, click for full] they are a moral cripple at that point.

if you're going that route theres a decent chance goblinsayer and cain can't be blamed either after what was done to him too.
(we aren't sure what exactly but a mad wizard did something horrible to them and was into capturing and fusing random creatures we don't know for what purpose (the net effect was probably something like goblinslayer's torture rooms) but they escaped together and were partners ever since.)

and kore is just sad and misunderstood too because something happened to him that convinced him evil is infectious after apparently infecting him. it isn't his fault either

nobody that ever has something bad happen to them can ever be fully responsible for what they do because scars
like how alot of pedophiles were molested

[stevedj]

Maybe something happy to consider...

IF (yea, that's a big IF) ... Kin and MM figure out that perhaps they've lost something to oblivion as an explanation to why Kin is doubting her trust of MM, well then - with that realization, her trust in MM will be sealed forever! And Ruby's plan will have backfired, making the love between the two unbreakable!

So, there is always hope!

[Miryafa]

Maybe something happy to consider...

IF (yea, that's a big IF) ... Kin and MM figure out that perhaps they've lost something to oblivion as an explanation to why Kin is doubting her trust of MM, well then - with that realization, her trust in MM will be sealed forever! And Ruby's plan will have backfired, making the love between the two unbreakable!

So, there is always hope!

Well, given the way events in the comic have unfolded so far, I think this won't happen. It seems to me that Thunt's been writing a tragedy, not a comedy.

[noir]

Adding to my previous theory about Kin recognizing that pieces of her mind are missing now ... and that's what all her trust is pointing at ... and IDing the exact moment she got confused about the trust..

She's going to reach out and grab MM's axe and turn towards Team Kin, who are going to have a collective "eep!"

But she's not going to *use* it ... instead, she's going to scold Ruby about how Ruby just used a leash on her.

[Insane Kitty]

How would Archer Kin know how bad Dellyn is if he was killed during her rescue, she would promptly forget all about him. (it doesn't say on her sheet if he was killed, or if she was rescued) Nor would she know how bad humans are, as the ones who treated her badly are probably dead.

I am also not sure she fully understood how the oblivion holes worked as she never learned from her group, and it was only an offhand comment with her in the room.

Though I can see MM saying Kin we are soul bound. (or something along those lines)