28th October, 2013 - Human!

[Maur]

Please do continue the conversation about how the history of racism and slavery should influence a fantasy setting like D&D, it has been a very fascinating read thus far!

I will take it to the controversy, since we really drifted away (and willpell is not participating in that theme)

[Simon]

Yeah, now that I had another look at it, that seems more likely!

[SeeAMoose]

Okay, that works too I suppose. Really though you can continue it here if you would like.

[Changes_everything]

By Maglubiyet, what have I done!

[Unlucky-for-Some]

I believe you pulled the tail of the dragon

[willpell]

► Show Spoiler

Thought about taking this to PM, but I think it's appropriate to have discussions about the quality of the leadership of a community include any member of the community who's interested in participating (the spoiler block is for the sake of those who aren't).

And willpell, really? That's what you took from us giving you multiple opportunities to behave appropriately before your ban?

Yes, if by "opportunities" you mean sharp criticisms directed at me the moment I did something contrary to the wishes of a few influential community members (moderators or admins or something - black and orange names), having stepped on their toes about issues that they were oversensitive to, I was disproportionately punished and shut down without being given any significant amount of time to correct my behavior, or any real guidance in how to do so. (I believe I made it clear that, at that time in my life, I was having trouble even understanding what people were objecting to. On a maybe-not-coincidental tangent, I have since taken two courses of psychotherapy, and have a somewhat better handle on the same issues that were affecting me back then, though they have continued to give me difficulties in other forums as well, one of which I only narrowly avoided a banning in last week.)

Perhaps you defined the time and direction as sufficient; I very much did not, and I was the "wronged" party in that case, even if I had in turn "wronged" others. I do not believe the handling of the situation was satisfactory at all - a two-strikes rule with a very quick turnaround, when I was still sore over the first incident and had not had any opportunity to integrate into the larger community...it was far too draconian and punishing, and it was long enough ago that I think you should have relented by now.

I would remind you that many of the same rules that apply to controversy also apply to the main forum, and trying to start controversial discussions outside of Controversy to get around the ban is not acceptable.

I'm not trying to start them. Other people are starting them; I'm trying to participate in them before they're moved to Controversy, since I cannot do so thereafter. If I'm not allowed in the Cool People's Free Speech Club, then I don't appreciate all attempts at free speech being told to take it inside said club, when I'm involved and the people directing traffic know perfectly well that I cannot comply; it's the same as telling me, personally, to shut up and stop having opinions. If you're going to ban people from Controversy, you should have a much looser stance for how controversial things outside of that forum need to get before they cannot exist anymore. I don't agree at all with what Redwood Elf said, but I think he has a right to say it, and that I have a right to read him doing so, to better inform my view of him as a person.

[Arch Lich Burns]

[mod="Arch Lich Burns"]Willpell, you were banned from Controversy for a number amount of reasons and they are as follows: sexist, transphobic, insulting, blaming the victim of the crimes, bashing mods, hateful posts, and have posts full of spite. We gave you many chances to change your attitude and gave many reasons as to what you should stop doing. You were temporary banned from Controversy! and when you got back to it, you went to your normal routine and now you are blaming us for your own actions against the community. If you wish to talk about this, talk to us via pm, but don't bring it up in normal threads.[/mod]

[Ellendra]

There's still a way to fix this: get Kin right up next to one of the oblivion holes, and get as much of the leash into the hole as she can without losing her neck. Leash goes bye-bye, which means MM never grabbed it, and at least some of the horrible things Goblin Slayer did to her cease to have happened!

[LAYF]

There's still a way to fix this: get Kin right up next to one of the oblivion holes, and get as much of the leash into the hole as she can without losing her neck. Leash goes bye-bye, which means MM never grabbed it, and at least some of the horrible things Goblin Slayer did to her cease to have happened!

Hmm.. yes... I see what you mean.. but then.. if the Leash newer was, why did she then "Allow" GS to treat her like that? I actually think, that the psychological scaring on her would be even more great if she Thinks that she could have acted multiple times, but just newer did.. because... well... why did she not act? think how powerless that would make her feel...
I know OB hole migh get the leash off.. but it think its a bad solution for her mind....

just my 2 cents....

[Unlucky-for-Some]

and it just doesn't seem very practical to me ... if you could snip an item off Kin like that then surely that MinMax in the corridor when PsiMax created the Oblivion Holes would have just lost his boots rather than being dragged in ...

[twinsnake-coatl]

What about Forghat? Has anyone else wondered about his role in all this? As friend to both Minmax and Kin, he does have the responsibility to help them.

It should also be pointed out that Kin is as much an aggressor as she is a victim. One minute she states that she trusts Minmax, the next she threatens with abandoning him; and when he asks for an explanation, Kin refuses to give one. It's only obvious that Minmax will feel confused and, most importantly, hurt.

[SeeAMoose]

► Show Spoiler

Burns pretty much covered it. However, I will say that I did review your behavior when you asked to be unbanned. Had you been at all repentant, or demonstrated some change in behavior that would lead me to believe you could interact with others respectfully in Controversy, it may have been possible. The simple truth is that Controversy is not a anything goes free speech club where you can say whatever the hell you want. The reason you were banned was that you treated it as one after being repeatedly warned that you were violating rules, rules you essentially said shouldn't apply to you.

The main forum is for discussion of non-controversial topics or somewhat controversial topics that directly intersect with the comic and is open to all fans of the comic. The Controversy forum is intended for the reasonable and polite discussion of complex and controversial topics, is governed by strict rules, and is a privilege not a right. What you have been doing is purposefully engaging in the kinds of debates that you no longer are allowed to within this forum. If you continue to do so, I will be forced to believe that you are trying to get around the restrictions you ultimately brought done upon yourself and I will have to adjust your settings further. The same holds true for continuing to insult the dedicated moderation team of this forum at every available opportunity.

You broke rules and were punished for it, and now you can't do something you would like to do. Does it suck? Yes but you have no one but yourself to blame. The fact that yet another forum almost banned you should be an indication to you that you need to review your own behavior.

[mod="SeeAMoose"]If you want to discuss this further you can do so by pm, because this is not fair to the other chatters. If you post anything responding to this that goes beyond "I understand" it will be deleted, and the same holds true for insulting moderators or discussing controversial subjects. If you want to discuss controversial topics you can go to another forum, you are not allowed to here.[/mod]

[Simon]

What about Forghat? Has anyone else wondered about his role in all this? As friend to both Minmax and Kin, he does have the responsibility to help them.

It should also be pointed out that Kin is as much an aggressor as she is a victim. One minute she states that she trusts Minmax, the next she threatens with abandoning him; and when he asks for an explanation, Kin refuses to give one. It's only obvious that Minmax will feel confused and, most importantly, hurt.

I think Forgath is most likely to help Minmax first. He's in the same area as him and has known him for longer. Kin's also very... tempermental (?) at the moment, so he may go to talk to Kin a little bit later.

And yeah, although her reaction is understandable, from the point of view of Minmax, it's as if she's suddenly changed personality.

[EatsAPeach]

I am not liking the way this is going. My best guess is that outside the Maze she will remember everything and the jade teapot will be left under a tree somewhere when she teleports after her friends.

[Brings Cupcakes]

So.... has anyone seen the sneak peek panel Thunt posted on his twitter?

► Show Spoiler

A sad-looking Forgath with a Minmax who apparantly smacked his own head/face palmed (possibly because he realised how stupid his action was.

(Spoilered because I'm talking about the image).

Ouch, the pathos!

I know some people have been demonizing Minmax, but lets face it, he's not the brightest and he made a horrible mistake. Poor schmuck.

[AntMac]

Demonising?. This is the problem with the world today, celebrity and looks and likeability trump justice. OJ couldn'ta dunnit, he is a great sportsman. Diana was a saint. And on ad nauseam.
Add the feeling (mostly the young) people have that individual wishes are sacred, "I want to do this so I ought to be allowed to", this overwhelming sense of entitlement the modern would is drowning* in, and you get the curious situation that a character gets automatic forgiveness from a big percentage of the audience for

grabbing a rope tied around a females neck and saying stop.

These two selfish feelings prevalent in our extended society are the reason it is a commonplace to read about boyfriends beating their girlfriends half or entirely to death. "I am great, and I want to do this, and you are not going to stop me with logic and morals because I am not listening to you".


Listen, he isn't a demon, he is a likable doofus with a Jock attitude (he sold his reading skills for strength, if that isn't the ground floor basic description of a Jock, what is?) and some basic compassion for people, who is so selfish that his own feelings are more important to him than the concerns and rights of others. And this selfish regard has lead to the case that a woman who began to trust him right against her real experience and basic nature, has point blank had it proved why he is not to be trusted.

He means well but he is not to be trusted with anything important. Would he steal your wallet?. NO, of course he wouldn't. Would he lose it then make excuses about it?. YES, of course he would, we have seen him do these things.

* All the graffiti, the "peer-to-peer" thefts, the rampant almost exponential-increased cheating in school exams, all of it basically because the young think they are entitled to anything they want.

[Maur]

Add the feeling (mostly the young) people have that individual wishes are sacred, "I want to do this so I ought to be allowed to", this overwhelming sense of entitlement the modern would is drowning* in, and you get the curious situation that a character gets automatic forgiveness from a big percentage of the audience for

grabbing a rope tied around a females neck and saying stop.

These two selfish feelings prevalent in our extended society are the reason it is a commonplace to read about boyfriends beating their girlfriends half or entirely to death. "I am great, and I want to do this, and you are not going to stop me with logic and morals because I am not listening to you".

Uh, AntMac, violent crime is sharply dropping for twenty years already.

[AntMac]

Add the feeling (mostly the young) people have that individual wishes are sacred, "I want to do this so I ought to be allowed to", this overwhelming sense of entitlement the modern would is drowning* in, and you get the curious situation that a character gets automatic forgiveness from a big percentage of the audience for

grabbing a rope tied around a females neck and saying stop.

These two selfish feelings prevalent in our extended society are the reason it is a commonplace to read about boyfriends beating their girlfriends half or entirely to death. "I am great, and I want to do this, and you are not going to stop me with logic and morals because I am not listening to you".

Uh, AntMac, violent crime is sharply dropping for twenty years already.

Do you have a dictionary inside your computer?, most people do.

Use it more often. In specific, look up commonplace.

[Grim Levity]

Demonising?. This is the problem with the world today, celebrity and looks and likeability trump justice. OJ couldn'ta dunnit, he is a great sportsman. Diana was a saint. And on ad nauseam.
Add the feeling (mostly the young) people have that individual wishes are sacred, "I want to do this so I ought to be allowed to", this overwhelming sense of entitlement the modern would is drowning* in, and you get the curious situation that a character gets automatic forgiveness from a big percentage of the audience for

grabbing a rope tied around a females neck and saying stop.

These two selfish feelings prevalent in our extended society are the reason it is a commonplace to read about boyfriends beating their girlfriends half or entirely to death. "I am great, and I want to do this, and you are not going to stop me with logic and morals because I am not listening to you".


Listen, he isn't a demon, he is a likable doofus with a Jock attitude (he sold his reading skills for strength, if that isn't the ground floor basic description of a Jock, what is?) and some basic compassion for people, who is so selfish that his own feelings are more important to him than the concerns and rights of others. And this selfish regard has lead to the case that a woman who began to trust him right against her real experience and basic nature, has point blank had it proved why he is not to be trusted.

He means well but he is not to be trusted with anything important. Would he steal your wallet?. NO, of course he wouldn't. Would he lose it then make excuses about it?. YES, of course he would, we have seen him do these things.

* All the graffiti, the "peer-to-peer" thefts, the rampant almost exponential-increased cheating in school exams, all of it basically because the young think they are entitled to anything they want.

I think it was Thunt that did the demonizing in this case by having Minmax perform the action at all. Yes, we've known Minmax to be a selfish lout with a basic compassion.

Now he is the Minmax who made to sacrifice himself so Kin and his best buddy could potentially escape the maze. As you seem to have noted he's a doofus, so he probably didn't even begin to think about surviving until they could use the keys and escape, thus saving him. He was just thinking about getting them out. Period. That's not the action of someone who is still trapped in selfishness. It's not the action of someone who'd grab a rope around a girl's neck--particularly the girl he feels such strong things for.

You talk about what we've seen of Minmax in the past... but you're dismissing, too, the growth we all saw in the maze--and even before the maze bit by bit--previous to the very jarring moment where he grabbed the leash.

[Maur]

Add the feeling (mostly the young) people have that individual wishes are sacred, "I want to do this so I ought to be allowed to", this overwhelming sense of entitlement the modern would is drowning* in, and you get the curious situation that a character gets automatic forgiveness from a big percentage of the audience for

grabbing a rope tied around a females neck and saying stop.

These two selfish feelings prevalent in our extended society are the reason it is a commonplace to read about boyfriends beating their girlfriends half or entirely to death. "I am great, and I want to do this, and you are not going to stop me with logic and morals because I am not listening to you".

Uh, AntMac, violent crime is sharply dropping for twenty years already.

Do you have a dictionary inside your computer?, most people do.

Use it more often. In specific, look up commonplace.

You said these things are reason for such crimes to be commonplace. You said these things are more common nowadays. Yet such crimes are much rarer.

Is it clear now what i was saying?

[AntMac]

Is it clear now what i was saying?

Quite quite clear that you do not know the literal and commonplace usage of the word commonplace, anyway. And I did not say "these things are more common nowadays". Nor are you even remotely correct when you say violent crime is sharply dropping for twenty years now, as you make not one qualification as to where. The people in Mexico would love you to be right. So too the people in Ivory Coast.

Work that dictionary harder, everyone needs to keep learning something new every day, maybe you need to relearn something's that are old too, but that is no shame, we can't have all the skills without equal effort.

[AntMac]

I think it was Thunt that did the demonizing in this case by having Minmax perform the action at all. Yes, we've known Minmax to be a selfish lout with a basic compassion.

Now he is the Minmax who made to sacrifice himself so Kin and his best buddy could potentially escape the maze. As you seem to have noted he's a doofus, so he probably didn't even begin to think about surviving until they could use the keys and escape, thus saving him. He was just thinking about getting them out. Period. That's not the action of someone who is still trapped in selfishness. It's not the action of someone who'd grab a rope around a girl's neck--particularly the girl he feels such strong things for.

You talk about what we've seen of Minmax in the past... but you're dismissing, too, the growth we all saw in the maze--and even before the maze bit by bit--previous to the very jarring moment where he grabbed the leash.

Yeah, well, I don't want to agree with your criticism of the writer, because I take my debts seriously, am in his debt to the tune of many years of intermittent pleasure. . . but I don't see how to do that without being at best di-ingenuous, because you make some almost unassailable points.

However, maybe he is basically a good guy, who if someone explained to BEFORE this the reasoning why it is just wrong to snatch up leads around anyone's necks, let alone someone who you respect . . . it might have been at the forefront of his mind. It surely was in his mind, because of his instant comprehension of his having hurt her. Not evil, just untrustworthy.

You are to consider that maybe he leapt down a hole to his probably death to save Forgarth and Kin the very same way he would have leapt into the thick of a sword fight against some Bronze Golem of 20000 HP to save Forgarth and Kin. It is just basically what his build is for, heroics. And trampling on others' sensibilities. Edit to add, in fairness, his whole storyline is of someone working to deal with that trampling fault.

[Maur]

Is it clear now what i was saying?

Quite quite clear that you do not know the literal and commonplace usage of the word commonplace, anyway. And I did not say "these things are more common nowadays". Nor are you even remotely correct when you say violent crime is sharply dropping for twenty years now, as you make not one qualification as to where. The people in Mexico would love you to be right. So too the people in Ivory Coast.

Work that dictionary harder, everyone needs to keep learning something new every day, maybe you need to relearn something's that are old too, but that is no shame, we can't have all the skills without equal effort.

Well, i am not a native speaker, true. I guess you are, then, so i am talking about your place, which i suppose you were talking about, too. And i bet you have no idea about crime rate in Ivory Coast, nor, likely, Mexico.

Notice the rather telling graph (USA):

http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013 ... g-success/

You were saying that the attitudes you described are more common today. Not explicitly, but any reasonable person would make that interpretation. I will bold the telling parts for ease.

Demonising?. This is the problem with the world today, celebrity and looks and likeability trump justice. OJ couldn'ta dunnit, he is a great sportsman. Diana was a saint. And on ad nauseam.
Add the feeling (mostly the young) people have that individual wishes are sacred, "I want to do this so I ought to be allowed to", this overwhelming sense of entitlement the modern would is drowning* in, and you get the curious situation that a character gets automatic forgiveness from a big percentage of the audience for

grabbing a rope tied around a females neck and saying stop.

These two selfish feelings prevalent in our extended society are the reason it is a commonplace to read about boyfriends beating their girlfriends half or entirely to death. "I am great, and I want to do this, and you are not going to stop me with logic and morals because I am not listening to you".

It is clear that you were implying what i responded to. Of course, you did not exactly say that this crime is commonplace nowadays, you said it is common to read about it in newspapers*. But trying to say it was your point would be cop out on a only slightly smaller scale than trying to claim modern would was not a typo for modern world.


Which i guess is part of why you have this mistaken opinion, but i digress.

Edit/Bolding did not work? Huh... underlining then.

[Grim Levity]

I think it was Thunt that did the demonizing in this case by having Minmax perform the action at all. Yes, we've known Minmax to be a selfish lout with a basic compassion.

Now he is the Minmax who made to sacrifice himself so Kin and his best buddy could potentially escape the maze. As you seem to have noted he's a doofus, so he probably didn't even begin to think about surviving until they could use the keys and escape, thus saving him. He was just thinking about getting them out. Period. That's not the action of someone who is still trapped in selfishness. It's not the action of someone who'd grab a rope around a girl's neck--particularly the girl he feels such strong things for.

You talk about what we've seen of Minmax in the past... but you're dismissing, too, the growth we all saw in the maze--and even before the maze bit by bit--previous to the very jarring moment where he grabbed the leash.

Yeah, well, I don't want to agree with your criticism of the writer, because I take my debts seriously, am in his debt to the tune of many years of intermittent pleasure. . . but I don't see how to do that without being at best di-ingenuous, because you make some almost unassailable points.

However, maybe he is basically a good guy, who if someone explained to BEFORE this the reasoning why it is just wrong to snatch up leads around anyone's necks, let alone someone who you respect . . . it might have been at the forefront of his mind. It surely was in his mind, because of his instant comprehension of his having hurt her. Not evil, just untrustworthy.

You are to consider that maybe he leapt down a hole to his probably death to save Forgarth and Kin the very same way he would have leapt into the thick of a sword fight against some Bronze Golem of 20000 HP to save Forgarth and Kin. It is just basically what his build is for, heroics. And trampling on others' sensibilities. Edit to add, in fairness, his whole storyline is of someone working to deal with that trampling fault.

You're making a decent case as well, but there's more than that one situation to consider--I just used it because it was probably the freshest example of how Minmax has grown as a man and how powerful his conscience has become--if it wasn't already this way.

He took pains not to touch Kin under almost any circumstance for a long while. Finally, when they are in the maze and the trees are growing around them... at first even THEN he doesn't touch her. Only when things look their most bleak and it seems like there's no other possible way, he loses himself to rage and a desire to protect Kin and grabs her up to save her. He gets her to safety and sets her down... and immediately apologizes for touching her.

He doesn't first say a word or even make a gesture about how awesome what he just did was--which it unquestionably was, particularly for a dopey jock archetype--he apologizes for touching her despite that touch saving her life and taking her away from a waking nightmare.

If his first instinct, then, was to do a little 'touchdown' dance or talk about how awesome it was and only apologize when he realized Kin still looked shaken, I think I could let this go and see your point without any significant retort. However, this was about her feelings and them coming first even though what he did could easily be argued to be objectively right. However, this showed a seriously large leap in his character development despite the little dopey Minmax moments that followed.

Yes, he still does silly things like whine about Forgath's helmet-water, mangle basic english, and the like. However, it felt like that particular scene wasn't just one building on Kin and Minmax's relationship but a milestone in the building of his character. Heroics DID ensue... but even he put them out of his mind in favor of Kin's sensibilities.

All these things together is what makes the leash-grab so jarring and discomforting. I'm not saying Thunt is a bad storyteller by any stretch--he's proven himself to be amazing as a storyteller. I say this as a guy who came to appreciate K'sellis' character and grudgingly had to admit his death was an amazing scene of characterization and probably the best send-off for him. What I am saying is that this particular choice to have Minmax grab up the leash at this moment doesn't feel like a good storytelling move but a means to generate drama that isn't consistent with what the story's told us to this point.

[SeeAMoose]

AntMac, Maur chill. We're all friends here.