28th October, 2013 - Human!

[stevedj]

Ok, theory time -- just a FUN little theory really, that is all

(and apologies if this has been said before; these threads get too big, too fast, sometimes...)

Someone mentioned the idea that maybe a keyword might be all that is needed to release the collar (i.e. to make it easy for GS to move it around as he saw fit). That got me thinking...

What if this is like The Little Mermaid? Or Beauty and the Beast? ...or, well, just about any Disney princess story... ... wherein, the curse itself can be ended/released by a man showing her love, and gaining her love back, WITHOUT using the collar? In other words, what if the curse would've been broken IF Ruby hadn't stopped them from kissing?

[Quild]

Ok, theory time -- just a FUN little theory really, that is all

(and apologies if this has been said before; these threads get too big, too fast, sometimes...)

Someone mentioned the idea that maybe a keyword might be all that is needed to release the collar (i.e. to make it easy for GS to move it around as he saw fit). That got me thinking...

What if this is like The Little Mermaid? Or Beauty and the Beast? ...or, well, just about any Disney princess story... ... wherein, the curse itself can be ended/released by a man showing her love, and gaining her love back, WITHOUT using the collar? In other words, what if the curse would've been broken IF Ruby hadn't stopped them from kissing?

And that would be easy for GS to move it around as he saw fit because...?

[RedwoodElf]

Ok, theory time -- just a FUN little theory really, that is all

(and apologies if this has been said before; these threads get too big, too fast, sometimes...)

Someone mentioned the idea that maybe a keyword might be all that is needed to release the collar (i.e. to make it easy for GS to move it around as he saw fit). That got me thinking...

What if this is like The Little Mermaid? Or Beauty and the Beast? ...or, well, just about any Disney princess story... ... wherein, the curse itself can be ended/released by a man showing her love, and gaining her love back, WITHOUT using the collar? In other words, what if the curse would've been broken IF Ruby hadn't stopped them from kissing?

Unfortunately, the evil wizards who make Collars of Enslavement aren't the "Love conquers all" type.

[LAYF]

Ok, theory time -- just a FUN little theory really, that is all

(and apologies if this has been said before; these threads get too big, too fast, sometimes...)

Someone mentioned the idea that maybe a keyword might be all that is needed to release the collar (i.e. to make it easy for GS to move it around as he saw fit). That got me thinking...

What if this is like The Little Mermaid? Or Beauty and the Beast? ...or, well, just about any Disney princess story... ... wherein, the curse itself can be ended/released by a man showing her love, and gaining her love back, WITHOUT using the collar? In other words, what if the curse would've been broken IF Ruby hadn't stopped them from kissing?

Unfortunately, the evil wizards who make Collars of Enslavement aren't the "Love conquers all" type.

And that, for all account would be a perfect reason to use that as the "weakness" of the collar
*Do, I do think its a bit off

[stevedj]

Ok, theory time -- just a FUN little theory really, that is all

(and apologies if this has been said before; these threads get too big, too fast, sometimes...)

Someone mentioned the idea that maybe a keyword might be all that is needed to release the collar (i.e. to make it easy for GS to move it around as he saw fit). That got me thinking...

What if this is like The Little Mermaid? Or Beauty and the Beast? ...or, well, just about any Disney princess story... ... wherein, the curse itself can be ended/released by a man showing her love, and gaining her love back, WITHOUT using the collar? In other words, what if the curse would've been broken IF Ruby hadn't stopped them from kissing?

Unfortunately, the evil wizards who make Collars of Enslavement aren't the "Love conquers all" type.

But, I thought Disney == Evil Wizards

And that would be easy for GS to move it around as he saw fit because...?

...oh, GS would've still had his password to be able to release it from a wearer. The "kiss" would be to permanently remove the curse from the collar entirely.

[Grim Levity]

Ok, theory time -- just a FUN little theory really, that is all

(and apologies if this has been said before; these threads get too big, too fast, sometimes...)

Someone mentioned the idea that maybe a keyword might be all that is needed to release the collar (i.e. to make it easy for GS to move it around as he saw fit). That got me thinking...

What if this is like The Little Mermaid? Or Beauty and the Beast? ...or, well, just about any Disney princess story... ... wherein, the curse itself can be ended/released by a man showing her love, and gaining her love back, WITHOUT using the collar? In other words, what if the curse would've been broken IF Ruby hadn't stopped them from kissing?

Unfortunately, the evil wizards who make Collars of Enslavement aren't the "Love conquers all" type.

I think the idea is more that love is more powerful than their evil magic...

@kida: To be fair, the guy whose neck Kin snapped looks pretty sickly. Wouldn't be awfully far-fetched for him to have brittle bones and the like--probably surmised by her high INT based on his gaunt appearance and bruised eye sockets.

[kida]

@kida: To be fair, the guy whose neck Kin snapped looks pretty sickly. Wouldn't be awfully far-fetched for him to have brittle bones and the like--probably surmised by her high INT based on his gaunt appearance and bruised eye sockets.

And she knocked out MM this update - is he sickly also?
Lets agree that Kin strength derives from the plot Thunt want to tell...

[Master TMO]

@kida: To be fair, the guy whose neck Kin snapped looks pretty sickly. Wouldn't be awfully far-fetched for him to have brittle bones and the like--probably surmised by her high INT based on his gaunt appearance and bruised eye sockets.

And she knocked out MM this update - is he sickly also?
Lets agree that Kin strength derives from the plot Thunt want to tell...

Knocked down, not out. There's a difference. I've been knocked down by a paintball, and I'm not a little guy. Hit me in the hollow of my throat. And Minmax is obviously still conscious in the background.

[Moroser]

I wonder why do some readers consider Kin hitting Minmax hard to be unrealistic. In extreme stress people sometimes show increased strength. She also used her snake tail as a spring to raise quick to MM's height, so the punch has a good momentum. It's hard to analyze Kin's anathomy, but it seems to me a three-fingered hand with broad fingers is robuster, than a human's hand, so the risk of damaging her hand is lower.

Minmax is stunned be his emotions and didn't expect the attack, so he doesn't even try to maintain balance. I suppose if Kin would continue hitting him he wouldn't defend himself.

[kida]

Knocked down, not out. There's a difference. I've been knocked down by a paintball, and I'm not a little guy. Hit me in the hollow of my throat. And Minmax is obviously still conscious in the background.

Are you minmaxed for fighting? Do you have the strength of a Giant? Do you know 38 ways to kill a man with your finger? Why do you compare yourself to MinMax?

[Davis8488]

Actually, racism is modern phenomen, with roots in XVI century and only widespread since XVIII century. Before that other differences were important, like language, ethnicity or religion.

It feels like splitting hairs to me to say that race was unimportant while ethnic discrimination was prevalent, especially as it doesn't discredit the argument that in a medieval fantasy setting the characters would very likely dislike members of other races, as the Goblins are most certainly of a disparate ethnicity to Minmax and Forgath.

[willpell]

Actually, racism is modern phenomen, with roots in XVI century and only widespread since XVIII century. Before that other differences were important, like language, ethnicity or religion.

It feels like splitting hairs to me to say that race was unimportant while ethnic discrimination was prevalent, especially as it doesn't discredit the argument that in a medieval fantasy setting the characters would very likely dislike members of other races, as the Goblins are most certainly of a disparate ethnicity to Minmax and Forgath.

The distinction between ethnicity and race probably didn't even exist until fairly recently. To a medieval Italian, there would be little that a Norseman, a Russian, a non-Moorish Spaniard, a Briton and a Greek would have had in common which would distinguish them from a Nubian or (arguably) a Semite. And, apart from the Spaniard and the Greek, even less to lump them in with the Italian himself while somehow excluding the Nubian and the Semite...he might have recognized more kinship with those than with the three northerners, since coming from a warm Mediterranean climate, the distinction between his own dusky skin and an actual "black" skin tone. (He might have had issues with the Jew based on the common stereotypes of them, but probably wouldn't have arbitrarily lumped either them or himself in with any other group on the basis of more than a small geographic region.) Fun fact - at the start of the 20th century, Irish and Italian immigrants to America were not considered "white", whereas Arabians were. The opinion of where exactly racial lines should be drawn tends to evolve with the political climate.

(I've written this to be very respectful and non-charged; please do not tell me to take it to Controversy, because I can't.)

[Sir_Realtor]

Genius! This comic has improved slowly, steadily, constantly. Both the art, but, in my opinion, the writing, vis a vis, the characterizations have reached the point of literature, and da** good lit at that. Never has true love grown so well, to have its path strewn with so many thorns. But, as writer, try to be a more benevolent creator than the one we're stuck with; give them a second chance at happiness.

[Liesmith]

I like that the entire Maze of Many, itself, was foreshadowing for this sort of effect after Ruby's betrayal.

[Shadowsgrneyes]

I have been reading goblins for a very very long time. Never tried to do the forums till now.

The Kin/Minmax arc is one I find very engaging. Ever since I first saw the strange Yaun-Ti slave girl, I've liked the character.
There are only seven stories in the world. Good authors can make a tale they tell encompass more than one. great authors can tell a tale that encompases all of them.

man against man (monsters and adventurers)
man against nature (adventures/goblins and the dungeons/mazes)
man against society (goblins becoming adventurers)
man against God (Saves a fox and the forces of fate)
man caught in the middle (dies horribly and his entire life)
man and woman (Minmax and Kin)
man against himself (Minmax and his own stupididty in what he just did in this comic)
(there are other examples I'm sure of each archetype in the comic)

Thank you Thunt.While I am desperately upset by events in Kin and Minmax's story I love the tragedy and hope you can draw a happy ending out of it. I can see the dramatic tool of not doing so. I will not try to figure out where you are going with the story, I will not try to dissect your hard work, i will simply say thank you and continue along the amazing ride this story as been, waiting eagerly for more. I love this comic and your an amazing author and people who desperately try to find ways to tear this story apart are the same people who tear apart Dante and say Shakespeare is contrived.

[a77]

Thank you Thunt.While I am desperately upset by events in Kin and Minmax's story I love the tragedy and hope you can draw a happy ending out of it.

Kin story is based on Thunt mothers life, so it will probably work out good in the end.

[Steel Resolve]

I think the solution is to push Ruby in the goddamn oblivion.

Well, perhaps not a solution so much as something that should happen.

I seriously had hope for these two, Kin deserved better. Minmax had actually EARNED better. Now we'll continue on, Minmax will be pissed at monsters again thus spurring him on to kill the goblin party. Funny thing, in the end it wasn't the human betraying her, it was herself. And I doubt she'll ever realize what was lost.

[SaVa]

I think the solution is to push Ruby in the goddamn oblivion.

Well, perhaps not a solution so much as something that should happen.

Why would you want to harm her for being so bold in saying humans are bad?

I seriously had hope

You are reading the wrong web comic. =/= hope...

[Changes_everything]

I think the solution is to push Ruby in the goddamn oblivion.

But why would they do that? She hasn't done anything wrong.

[Maur]

I think the solution is to push Ruby in the goddamn oblivion.

Well, perhaps not a solution so much as something that should happen.

Why would you want to harm her for being so bold in saying humans are bad?

One does not simply torpedo a ship.

[AntMac]

It should be recalled that racism was totally commonplace in every (not only western) society, across the board, with even people like Martin Luther (not King, the reformator) being openly antisemitic for instance, from the very right to the very left political spectrum. It was, maybe, frowned upon by a few enlightened philosophers and humanists, and that was that. That remained so until the unspeakable nazi crimes (and of a few others), an eye opener if there ever was one, and arguably way after them, if you think of the continuing struggle of black (today called in the US for these very reasons 'african american') people and other discriminated groupings for their rights.

Actually, racism is modern phenomen, with roots in XVI century and only widespread since XVIII century. Before that other differences were important, like language, ethnicity or religion.

Slavery is the far more ancient practice. It could be argued that as Slavery weakened with the concept of Liberty (in the democratic republic sense), racism strengthened. Now that racism is weakening, Non-discriminatory Slavery is now starting to make a comeback, enslaving people to the state, rather than individual "masters" - Slavery is the essence of socialism, after all. A system where people are expected to work with no compensation, any fruits of their labors being confiscated (hello I.R.S.) and their "Masters" (an all powerful government in this case) deign to give them the bare essentials (Food stamps, government housing, IRS managed "Health care" where your future ability to generate income for the state will be the deciding factor in whether you get that lifesaving operation or are told to "Just take a pain pill" to quote Emperor Barry.

Americans talk about Socialism with half their brain tightly shut, I have to think, because when they do, they certainly do not describe the actual physical world.

USA = Socialism and has since it was in its infancy. It is normal human society.

[T' Northerner]

Slavery is the far more ancient practice. It could be argued that as Slavery weakened with the concept of Liberty (in the democratic republic sense), racism strengthened. Now that racism is weakening, Non-discriminatory Slavery is now starting to make a comeback, enslaving people to the state, rather than individual "masters" - Slavery is the essence of socialism, after all. A system where people are expected to work with no compensation, any fruits of their labors being confiscated (hello I.R.S.) and their "Masters" (an all powerful government in this case) deign to give them the bare essentials (Food stamps, government housing, IRS managed "Health care" where your future ability to generate income for the state will be the deciding factor in whether you get that lifesaving operation or are told to "Just take a pain pill" to quote Emperor Barry.

Americans talk about Socialism with half their brain tightly shut, I have to think, because when they do, they certainly do not describe the actual physical world.

Germany?. Norway?. Finland?. Denmark?. Australia?. New Zealand?. Canada?. Successful countries, do you realise?, the people not slaves, do you understand?. Tiny Auckland is the tenth best city in the world to live in . . . Socialist as the day is long, Auckland. Full of people who are better served by their state than any non-socialist country you can name. What is that?, you can't actually name one?. Because the USA?. You?. Don't qualify.

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/sunda ... ck_check=1

"Well, the point of my story is that almost all of us are makers, and all of us are takers, but weÔÇÖre proud of our making and blind to our taking.

The vast majority of our $3.5 trillion in annual federal spending goes to national defense, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, which is thought of as a program for the poor but also helps the disabled as well as middle-class residents of nursing homes.

ThereÔÇÖs also $1.3 trillion in tax expenditures that predominantly reward middle-income and upper-income taxpayers for owning homes, receiving health benefits through their employers, saving money in 401(k) plans, hiring nannies and doing other things that theyÔÇÖd probably do without the incentives".
USA = Socialism and has since it was in its infancy. It is normal human society.

All of those countries are Capitalist. A welfare state does not a socialist government make. I see your point of course, socialist policies aren't teh evils, but by suggesting that anything that isn't as economically right wing as mainstream US is socialism you unconsciously support his mistaken view of what socialism actually is.

[AntMac]

Actually, racism is modern phenomen, with roots in XVI century and only widespread since XVIII century. Before that other differences were important, like language, ethnicity or religion.

It feels like splitting hairs to me to say that race was unimportant while ethnic discrimination was prevalent, especially as it doesn't discredit the argument that in a medieval fantasy setting the characters would very likely dislike members of other races, as the Goblins are most certainly of a disparate ethnicity to Minmax and Forgath.

The distinction between ethnicity and race probably didn't even exist until fairly recently. To a medieval Italian, there would be little that a Norseman, a Russian, a non-Moorish Spaniard, a Briton and a Greek would have had in common which would distinguish them from a Nubian or (arguably) a Semite.

Except actual historical writings and official documents tell us that Greeks and Romans and Hungarians and Russians and Persians all recorded and considered race very important. The Greek city-states were divided along race lines alongside but separate to the class and religion lines, The Egyptians in Alexandria sent petitions to Rome against according black Africans the same local-political stature as part white Africans i.e. Ptolemy's crowd, Romans considered Black a racial epitaph, they had a slur that meant "African" which they used on dark skinned - but "actually white" - political contenders. History is full of examples from two and three thousand years ago, let alone only five or six hundred.

[AntMac]

[All of those countries are Capitalist. A welfare state does not a socialist government make. I see your point of course, socialist policies aren't teh evils, but by suggesting that anything that isn't as economically right wing as mainstream US is socialism you unconsciously support his mistaken view of what socialism actually is.

Lol. I read further into the thread and saw someone objected to the post I was replying to, on controversy grounds, so edited my post to acknowledge that.

But, things are what people say they are. Ask a Norwegian or a New Zealander is we have actual Socialisms. ( Hint, we will face facts square on and say "Yep, man and boy!" . The left always calls themselves Socialists here, and it was actually the Right that brought in both Universal Suffrage ( first country in the world to do so ), Universal Pensions, and what you would see as "The Dole". So, you know, even our Right wing is Socialist at its heart and beginnings.

[Elvors]

<Arggh! I think you might be right. I just can't believe MinMax would knowingly do that to Kin, even under extreme emotional distress. He's an idiot, but he has been so kind and respectful up to this point.

I can. Easily.

Minmax was confused, desperate, and in panic. That's a mental condition where moral judgement, putting yourself in somebody else's position or all the other things that humans do to avoid doing something damnable simply don't work; you're basically reduced to instinct and impulse.

Not that Kin has been having exactly the same problem. She was confused, panicked by Minmax' nearness to her (tactile interjunction - "wtf WHY did I ever accept that???"), so she's trying to run away from the sitution (again, not thinking clearly: she vowed to never run away again).
Now shutting down the discussion and walking away without giving an explanation is going to drive any lover into a confused panic. Had she explained what troubled her, he would have gulped but accepted that she needed time for herself to think the situation through.

Both confused and panicked, and both hurting the one person in the world they loved most in the most horrible way imaginable.
This kind of thing does happen in the real world, too. It's actually not that uncommon.

BTW I do think Minmax knew what he was doing when he grabbed the leash.
Not the full details, but he knew that it would negate her free will, and he knew that she detested it
He did hesitate before grabbing the leash, too.
It's just that his panic overrode his better instincts.

(Oh, and please, people, make a different thread for that Capitalism vs. Socialism thing going on. One, it's off-topic here; two, you guys aren't even trying to define what you mean when you say "socialist" or "capitalist", so you can't even agree on what argument was brought forth, much less answer intelligently to anything.)