Nov 6 2013 Update: "Damn Spiders!"

[Kitty Hamilton]

Oh my gaaawwwwd

This is breaking my heart...but she SEES him.

[ChuckDaRighteous]

This isn't the first time we've seen this happened with them. http://www.goblinscomic.org/04272013/ However, in all the chaos caused by combat its hard to recognize everything that's going on. With things slowed down enough for their minds to work clearly, Kin might just figure it out. Then again after all the emotional distress, who can think clearly. So even though the signs are there, I just don't think they will recognize it.

[Gryphonic]

Someone is slithering through a river of Denial.
There's got to be an awful feedback loop of misery going on. Though I can believe it would never occur to her that she could be Seeing him, a human. As Mad Mick said, she might understand if she saw Minmax's hand now, but since Forgath said they probably shouldn't meet...

For the times I see forumites wondering about the apparent discrepancy between Yuan-ti mating practices and Trueseeing: love and lust are not synonymous, even among humans. You can have sex without love, and love without sex. I don't find it hard to believe a nonhuman fantasy race considers this the norm. My cynical self says that maybe it's due to their higher intelligence that they don't confuse the two.
It's very sad that love sounds rare for them, though.

[Shadowsgrneyes]

it's obvious.
Part of my theory i like:
minmax and forgath will leave,
kin will realize once he is gone that she loves min-max.
She will give up the teapot so she can use it, to be transported to the person she is thinking of. . . Min-max.

Part of my theory i dont like:
but because this is a tragedy, she will arrive as min-max is slaughtering "monsters" who were her friends
and love will fuel hate. etc

[AntMac]

This is something real couples, who are emotionally intune, generally do. They will both tend to fall into similar body language type actiony things. Like both would sit cross legged, or if one leans on the right arm the other does it too, their arms are both folded or what have you.

Well, I am no expert in the sort of being Kin & Co are, they are human on top, right, so as well as looks, they may share other Primate traits. They talk after all, and have facial expressions and body language, certainly the Kinship have looked perplexed, threatening and happy at different times (sometimes all at once cause of MinMax ). They seem slightly remote, dispassionate or distant with their body language at times too, might be deliberate on Thunts part, "these are not exactly humans" with picture re-enforcement. Kin has looked most of the human emotions from time to time though, so we can be sure they also mentally model those emotions onto the people they interact with, that is the sole purpose for them to have the expressions themselves "I'm smiling, it means I am friendly, will you smile too and say you are friendly?"

We do the mimicking thing as a social lubricant with ( maybe especially with ) other members of our species, members of the pack we are subservient to or afraid of even (look, I am smiling you big bully, you gotta like me a bit) and we do it for human social reasons. Couples do it, children do it to their parents, mothers and other people do it talking to infants, a wide range of situations effect humans so that they "mimic" or copy one another.

Snakes, and reptiles never ever do any of this though. Other snakes are just potential mates or prey. They have no social bonds at all, don't understand facial gestures or signals, nor use them to converse or even signal to one another, outside of mating. And Mating, I think, is more a thing they signal by smell, though I suppose body posture might play a limited part, so they could not possibly have the "facial or body expression" thing in the first place, for another animal to copy. For Kin and MinMax to share this means, I would guess, that humans and Yuan-ti share cultural things as well as faces.

However, and this was why I made this point, I can't for the life of me work out why they would have facial expressions, for LOVE when they already have the perfect "Seeing" thing for that situation.

So MinMax is going to See Kin, but he probably will never see her looking at him with the human expression for Love. He is going to have to go without that very Human thing, and make do instead with the Yuan-ti analogue.

it's obvious.


Part of my theory i dont like:
but because this is a tragedy, she will arrive as min-max is slaughtering "monsters" who were her friends
and love will fuel hate. etc

Well, that is a coinkidink, cause me and you don't like the exact same bit of your theory. I wish I didn't think you were right.

[Shjade]

Also... look at the last few lines of this gem of a blog post... a teaser two and a half years in the making.

We have hope... it is small... and broken... but still good. Yeah, still good.

No.

Minmax already said "I see you," so the "teaser" of that post is fulfilled.

It doesn't say it happens twice. It might, but just going by that blog's end statement, the page he's talking about already happened.

[Aegis J Hyena]

My guess? The Psi-gears go bonkers when the Kinship tries to reset the maze, throw a 404 "reality not found" when they try to reset, and instead "errors" (such as restored memories) occur. 'course by then MM and Forgath would have already drunk the tea...

[Ellendra]

Kin better hope it wasn't the spider that bit her. How many living things in the Maze of Many have been harmless?

[jaydubs]

My pet theory. I'm sure some/all of this has been suggested before.

After the "seeing," Kin gets suspicious, and goes back to the gears. Her necklace get restored, leading to Minmax commenting on how now it's green. Notice how Minmax's glove/armor in this picture is the exact same shade of green as Kin's hair/tail/energy.

http://www.goblinscomic.org/08102013-2/

Since the "remember me" is clearly from meeting the GAP again http://www.goblinscomic.org/01212011-2/ we can guess that Minmax doesn't have to use Oblivious in a fight before that. So the Kin-Kin split happens without actual combat. Instead, the racist axe is used by Forgath against Kore.

That is, Thunt gives us what seems like a happy scenario. KinMax works out, they leave the maze together using the jade teapot, and she mediates with the GAP. Together, with Forgath using the racist axe, they beat Kore. And that's when the real downer hits.

When Forgath beats Kore, Forgath becomes Kore. Koregath then attacks Kin, and Minmax tries to defend her. A figurative death (or at least a death as a PC) after a great battle with another dwarf, serpent as prey, friends becoming enemies, love fueling hate.

[Yamadasan]

This is something real couples, who are emotionally intune, generally do. They will both tend to fall into similar body language type actiony things. Like both would sit cross legged, or if one leans on the right arm the other does it too, their arms are both folded or what have you.

Well, I am no expert in the sort of being Kin & Co are, they are human on top, right, so as well as looks, they may share other Primate traits. They talk after all, and have facial expressions and body language, certainly the Kinship have looked perplexed, threatening and happy at different times (sometimes all at once cause of MinMax ). They seem slightly remote, dispassionate or distant with their body language at times too, might be deliberate on Thunts part, "these are not exactly humans" with picture re-enforcement. Kin has looked most of the human emotions from time to time though, so we can be sure they also mentally model those emotions onto the people they interact with, that is the sole purpose for them to have the expressions themselves "I'm smiling, it means I am friendly, will you smile too and say you are friendly?"

We do the mimicking thing as a social lubricant with ( maybe especially with ) other members of our species, members of the pack we are subservient to or afraid of even (look, I am smiling you big bully, you gotta like me a bit) and we do it for human social reasons. Couples do it, children do it to their parents, mothers and other people do it talking to infants, a wide range of situations effect humans so that they "mimic" or copy one another.

However, and this was why I made this point, I can't for the life of me work out why they would have facial expressions, for LOVE when they already have the perfect "Seeing" thing for that situation.

So MinMax is going to See Kin, but he probably will never see her looking at him with the human expression for Love. He is going to have to go without that very Human thing, and make do instead with the Yuan-ti analogue.

I would not call it social lubricant(Seriously, lubricant? Why not glue?) so much as a social tendency.
I looked into it, found the term. It's actually known as "Mirroring" and it's more psychological than social.
It's generally observed between couples, and included gestures, accents, tones, expressions, and vocabulary. It's as it's called, two people acting similar to the point of being mirrors of each other.

Oddly, I read a few marriage-related blog's/articles to get information on Mirroring.
It often comes up once the couple stops thinking of themselves as separate people, and as a single person instead.
A couple would start with a mutual benefit relationship. Here Minmax and Kin kinda-sorta like each other, and put trust in one another to complete the Maze of Many.

Here is where problems arise, he loves her and is greedy about it. He wants to love her, and that requires, no, DEMANDS she loves him back. She would reason that he is loving her for himself, and not for her. So while the relationship is beneficial, he is not. He's not looking out for her, but for himself, she would respond with distancing herself from him. This is absurdly obvious with the recent Minmax/Kin arc we have going on. Grabbing her leash was an act of dominance, he wanted Kin and attempted to force her to listen to his heartfelt cries. It wasn't sexist, but it was force. Kin of course, responded in kind. She hit him back and ran away, taking control of the relationship back. Turning back the clock here, her initial running from the conversation was an act of force itself. Kin stopped caring for Minmax, and decided to cut of relations with him in a single sentence/second. Minmax realized this and responded in kind.
That whole damn scene showcased how neither were looking out for the other FROM THE MOMENT THE NECKLACE WAS DROPPED.
A single one of them stopping and letting the other do what they wanted. Kin listening to Minmax, or Minmax letting Kin go, would have fixed everything right there. But since the Necklaces disappearance, they no longer cared for the other enough for these options to exist. They thought only of themselves upon this moment. Minmax's grief is entirely because Kin is leaving him, nothing to do with Kin outside of her being the object he wants.


To finish this off, his absolute devotion to her will inspire her to devote herself to him, and we get the "Couples" mentality. They are no longer two separate people, but two people dependent and devoted to each other, that they're essentially one person, looking out for his and herself.
Before that necklace drop, they both put faith that the other would put them before themselves, and DAYUM is that some Trust.
That's often when Mirroring happens.
AAAAND makes me realize where this Arc is going to go.

Regardless of where the "True Seeing' concept is from, D&D or Thunt himself, I believe it is based(in some way) upon that "couples" theory.
Ok, I'm going to call it Couples Theory, that's it's name now.


I decided to not quote the Snake-thing. Remember that this is a story, and all characters within should be considered Human. Humanoid if you want to be technical. As these characters are based upon Human personalities and not Snake-instincts, you can't properly relate that to a character story-wise.

In the contest of a written story, Kin is a human being. She makes mistakes, she can become emotional, she can be rash. Claiming Yuan-ti are super intelligent is fine. Making her use complex words is fine. Having her solve difficult problems for the group through strong critical thinking is fine.
But she's a character first, and a Yuan-ti second. The second her super-intelligence would hinder the plot it was turned off.
She was able to realize Minmax was throwing things into a hole due to a gap in her memories.
She is able to realize what Ruby did, even if it's more difficult. What it takes is her thinking about it.
Kin is not thinking about "why she trusted Minmax" right now, she's thinking "Minmax betrayed me, and I don't want to deal with the emotions that comes with" and is trying to separate from Minmax.

My problem here is how out of character Kin seemed during those moments. Everything she's doing is "Couples Theory" and nothing "Kin" This also applies to Minmax, he should be in a slightly more active role right about now.

The fact that Minmax is not more active right now, leads me to believe he will let Kin go, which will make Kin like him again, and YADA YADA THEY GET THEIR MEMORIES BACK AND EVERYTHING IS FINE AS A SNOWDAY ON JANUARY 3RD.

[SpiderDave]

Ugh. This makes me hope, and THunt has made me fear hope. I feel like there are more awful things to come. But I hope.

Also, this reminds me of the Dark Crystal, which makes me think that whatever they share, seeing or otherwise, is essentially two beings that are the same being. If that makes any sense.

[RidcullyJack]

Kin better hope it wasn't the spider that bit her. How many living things in the Maze of Many have been harmless?

Other than variant species of FMK, the ocassional other character like Grinorarcen, One Eye and Klik, and Symon the spider familiar, I don't think we've seen any other living things in the MoM. The traps and puzzles are all magical or mechanical. So where'd that spider come from?

[vernes]

THERE ARE SPIDERS IN MY EYES! ;_:

[suntiger745]

I really like how their connection doesn't exclude things like misunderstandings, accidentally hurting each other and disagreements.
Makes it much more realistic than the "soulmates never argue, fight or hurt each other" that so frequently crops up in fiction.

Also like that the bond doesn't automatically heals the mental wounds Kin has from Goblinslayer. Yes, she was healing until Minmax did the stupid thing with the leash, but she wasn't fully healed, or she wouldn't have reacted as strongly as she did.
Really like how the story handles their relationship so far. And though it would be sad, perhaps it would be better if Forgath and Minmax did drink the brew and spent some time away from her.

Have a feeling Minmax is going to refuse to drink it though, because he can't bear to be parted from her even if she hates him now.
Or... he drinks it because it's better for he to be apart for a while. Depends a bit on how exactly the bond works I guess.

[kingreaper]

She said that True Seeing is pretty rare all on its own, never mind cross-species (which has never happened before). So it's likely neither she nor anyone she knew in her clan did it. Though how such a monogamous mechanic works in the 'giant sex ball' mating process must be quite interesting.

They may well be completely unrelated. Romantic monogamy =/= sexual exclusivity. Those who See each other could still participate in the sex ball like everyone else.

[wyrmbear]

Kin has looked most of the human emotions from time to time though, so we can be sure they also mentally model those emotions onto the people they interact with, that is the sole purpose for them to have the expressions themselves "I'm smiling, it means I am friendly, will you smile too and say you are friendly?"

Damn. I guess that confirms my sociopathic tendencies. Ah well.

She Sees him, she really really Sees him! I'm ready for the rollercoaster to end now, thank you. Want a new ride.

[kida]

Since the "remember me" is clearly from meeting the GAP again http://www.goblinscomic.org/01212011-2/ we can guess that Minmax doesn't have to use Oblivious in a fight before that. So the Kin-Kin split happens without actual combat.

MM can fight with the racial axe, so we can still see him fight without using his sword.

[Mithcoriel]

Have you noticed she changed her hairstyle again? When was the last time she had that particular one? That oughta tell us something about her mood.

Nope - she's still a Greenette (pun on Brunette)

You do know "hairstyle" refers to the shape of the hair, not the color, right? o_O
When exactly did we see her change her hair color before?

[ForgetsOldName]

My pet theory. I'm sure some/all of this has been suggested before.

After the "seeing," Kin gets suspicious, and goes back to the gears. Her necklace get restored, leading to Minmax commenting on how now it's green. Notice how Minmax's glove/armor in this picture is the exact same shade of green as Kin's hair/tail/energy.

http://www.goblinscomic.org/08102013-2/

Since the "remember me" is clearly from meeting the GAP again http://www.goblinscomic.org/01212011-2/ we can guess that Minmax doesn't have to use Oblivious in a fight before that. So the Kin-Kin split happens without actual combat. Instead, the racist axe is used by Forgath against Kore.

That is, Thunt gives us what seems like a happy scenario. KinMax works out, they leave the maze together using the jade teapot, and she mediates with the GAP. Together, with Forgath using the racist axe, they beat Kore. And that's when the real downer hits.

When Forgath beats Kore, Forgath becomes Kore. Koregath then attacks Kin, and Minmax tries to defend her. A figurative death (or at least a death as a PC) after a great battle with another dwarf, serpent as prey, friends becoming enemies, love fueling hate.

The backpack, Minmax's pants, boots, etc. were not restored by the machine. It appears to be some sort of variant on healing and restoration spells.

My guess would be that it harnesses the reset power of the maze to restore things to their original state as with a reset, but it didn't restore Psimax's clothes, so it must be focused on healing. It probably doesn't work on obliterated items at all, but it almost certainly won't work on items.

It's possible that the machine could be adjusted to restore the items, but doubtful. It has all the hallmarks of a one way process.

Anyhow whatever happens next I think it very, very likely that Kin will figure it out sooner or later and that Minmax and Kin will end together.

[YardMeat]

This isn't the first time we've seen this happened with them. http://www.goblinscomic.org/04272013/ However, in all the chaos caused by combat its hard to recognize everything that's going on. With things slowed down enough for their minds to work clearly, Kin might just figure it out. Then again after all the emotional distress, who can think clearly. So even though the signs are there, I just don't think they will recognize it.

Actually, this is the first time weÔÇÖve seen it happen with them. MM has ÔÇ£seenÔÇØ Kin before, but Kin has not ÔÇ£seenÔÇØ MM until now . . . maybe. IÔÇÖm still not sure whether she ÔÇ£sawÔÇØ MM and was mistaken about the spider, or we supposed to momentarily think that she ÔÇ£sawÔÇØ him only to find out that her pain was actually from a spider bite. It still seems ambiguous.
I really liked the idea that the collar was suppressing her ability to ÔÇ£seeÔÇØ MM. I donÔÇÖt see any reason why she would ÔÇ£seeÔÇØ him when he hurt his hand when she hasnÔÇÖt ÔÇ£seenÔÇØ any of the pain he has experienced anywhere else in the maze.

Also... look at the last few lines of this gem of a blog post... a teaser two and a half years in the making.

We have hope... it is small... and broken... but still good. Yeah, still good.

No.

Minmax already said "I see you," so the "teaser" of that post is fulfilled.

It doesn't say it happens twice. It might, but just going by that blog's end statement, the page he's talking about already happened.

So THunt decided to commemorate the happiest moment in his life by linking it to an event in the comic where a promising relationship is completely destroyed? I doubt it. I think we will read ÔÇ£I see youÔÇØ again in the future.

[spiderwrangler]

or we supposed to momentarily think that she ÔÇ£sawÔÇØ him only to find out that her pain was actually from a spider bite.

Realistically, spiders don't bite people unless they are harassed or feel threatened. A spider isn't just going to jump off a table and bite you. Less realistically, if he overheard her, I wonder if Symon's feelings are hurt?

So THunt decided to commemorate the happiest moment in his life by linking it to an event in the comic where a promising relationship is completely destroyed? I doubt it. I think we will read ÔÇ£I see youÔÇØ again in the future.

Yes, that's why I'm holding out hope.

[Chir]

Very sad.
However, even with the other Kin obliviating the "Ken" necklace memory we see that love conquers oblivion.
No clue where this will go but we do know 2 things.
1) At some point in the future MinMax will have said the word Green.
2) He will reach for Oblivious while saying "Remember me".
Thunt may have some plot twists up his sleeve, but for now (and to move the story forward) we may have to assume that MinMax and Forgath will teleport in front of our Goblins on the bridge. I think Kore is in for a surprise. He is going to meet 2 adventures of moderate level with epic weapons and a completely new world-view of monsters.

[Jochi]

Kin better hope it wasn't the spider that bit her. How many living things in the Maze of Many have been harmless?

Other than variant species of FMK, the ocassional other character like Grinorarcen, One Eye and Klik, and Symon the spider familiar, I don't think we've seen any other living things in the MoM. The traps and puzzles are all magical or mechanical. So where'd that spider come from?

The growing-when-damaged trees were presumably living. But that room was an oddity in the MoM. I don't recall a lot of vermin, harmless or otherwise. Maybe the spiders ARE Symon's progeny. We don't really know its gender.

IÔÇÖm still not sure whether she ÔÇ£sawÔÇØ MM and was mistaken about the spider, or we supposed to momentarily think that she ÔÇ£sawÔÇØ him only to find out that her pain was actually from a spider bite. It still seems ambiguous.
I really liked the idea that the collar was suppressing her ability to ÔÇ£seeÔÇØ MM. I donÔÇÖt see any reason why she would ÔÇ£seeÔÇØ him when he hurt his hand when she hasnÔÇÖt ÔÇ£seenÔÇØ any of the pain he has experienced anywhere else in the maze.

Yeah, come to think of it. Psimax was causing Minmax a lot more pain than punching a wall, and that was AFTER his "seeing" kicked him out of his barbarian rage. You'd think if it were really mutual and she weren't suppressed, she'd have "seen" that, not to mention him getting his scalp nearly bitten off just before that. OK, the intentional misdirection by coincidental spider bite is a viable theory.

[Master TMO]

Slightly off-topic, but has it been said why they can't take more than one item with them? It does state that the winner can only take one, but they're not the winners. They're taking a back door out of the place. Why can't they just grab all the epic loots they can carry and then drink their tea?

[JustRight]

Hope springs eternal.

Kin may notice Minmax's wounded hand as he reaches to take the teacup...and make the connection.

Mirror neurons fire and are believed preparatory to having to make the same moves observed in a similar being...often nearly simultaneous. In our reality you have to observe the moves visually to have your mirror neurons triggered. No evidence for action at a distance as for Kin and Minmax.

By the way - striking a wall with the fist is often impulsive without thought to the potential damage - often the way with adolescent males. THunt is using a Hollywood fantasy injury - striking the surface of a mirror, cracking the glass then immediately showing blood on the knuckles. It takes more than a single surface strike and cracked glass to cut the skin - the glass shards have to be displaced enough to expose sharp edges and cut the skin - you generally need two moves to get lacerations - like putting the fist through the mirror and withdrawing - to get cut up and immediately show blood (not to mention while wearing armor).

Just a thought - which gets credit for the 'I see you' concept and phrase - Goblins or Avatar? Aren't they both predated by the 'I grok you' idea in "Stranger in a Strange Land" and 'Nemaste' in "Lost" (just variations on mirror neuron themes taken past just motor neurons).