Does Goblins pass the Bechdel Test?

[Stardance]

Hi, long time lurker and occasional poster.

My friends and family have been talking about the Bechdel test in literature and films lately, and it made me think of Goblins.

I've conflicted thoughts whether Goblins 'passes', but it could just be I don't remember the scene where it would pass. So instead of bothering Thunt with a trivial question, I thought I'd post it.

Does Goblins pass the Bechdel Test?
For the uninformed, you can read about it on the wiki here. : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test

If you think it does, what scene in goblins gets the 'pass'?

I thought maybe the interaction between the kins, but they're all interacting to defeat Psimax or about Minmax, so I think not. Maybe the fight between Duv and Saves-a-fox in the water. Is that the only one?

[Glemp]

How does one count two minutes in a comic strip?

[ForgetsOldName]

Forgath qualifies as a girl. Maybe. That's a tricky one.

I would count the Kins talking about Psimax but not about Minmax. The primary topic was strategy and the Psionic machine, not Psimax's way with girls.

Duv and Fox talk at at least one other point, when Duv explains why she enslaves goblins.

[fumblesfan]

http://www.goblinscomic.org/09212012/

Two updates in a row. . . I think that's the best you're going to do.

[Liesmith]

I think it *technically* passes, but I've never been a big fan of applying this as a firm test, rather than a guideline; it feels like it defeats the purpose.

For instance, the movie Gravity fails the test, even though it focuses on a female character for about 75% of the run time.

The Test is an effective way to highlight gender bias in fiction, but it's not as useful if you want to adhere to its letter, rather than its heart.

[AntMac]

Re thread title : Clinically, dispassionately, ? , Probably not.

Reading your post I think maybe that you have not parsed this question while considering upon what Goblins was set out to do. So if I can be forgiven for taking a very pedantic and unequivocal tone (because I am so very sure of this point I won't waste time saying if, maybe, possibly), I will just point something about Goblins out to you.

He set out to use an ironically typical "Adventure game" format and Players and NPC characters, as a palate on which he could explore various tropes and faults he perceives in Gaming, and offer them as discussion to us. Plus to make a lot of humorous jokes of course, because that is obviously a joy to the lad. But primarily the thing he was pointing out was perceptions of particular races of creature being "evil" which is just a stand-in for any other prejudice, of course.

He has said as much from the beginning, and has DONE as much all along, with a lot of humour and a lot of Pathos and a lot of introspection into our faults and mistakes as a sub-culture. ( I say our, because though I am almost an outsider, it has only been because of opportunity, not distaste or contempt.)

One of these faults is the fact that a lot of gaming, be it comics, games or our own behaviour as gamers, does, as you say, fail the Bechdel test. So, here is the thing you may have missed considering.

As a product of what he set out to do, inescapably the comic was always going to fail that particular test. If he wrote a comic that didn't, it wouldn't really allow him to hold it up as a mirror to us and say " Is it right, our doing it this particular way, even though I am making you laugh, think too, please".

Thanks for your question , and please stick around and play with us, we want your company. ( Especially, of course, if you are of the female persuasion. Girls are neat, and we already have enough boys.)

[Lee]

I would say this conversation between Duv and Saves-a-Fox would kind though they are fighting between talking so it does break up the conversation a bit.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/07242012/
http://www.goblinscomic.org/09212012/
http://www.goblinscomic.org/09252012/
http://www.goblinscomic.org/10022012/

Other than that there are not a lot of female characters with names, and most of them have not meet.

[harlequin]

This is an area that has always bothered me about goblins. I think unfortunately Thunt wrote the story years ago, and has grown as a person since (by his own admission I believe). But I'd rather see the original story with slightly weak female characterisations in it, than have him change it to fit with his new views. Maybe he can do a webcomic about a team of female goblin adventurers once he's finished this comic.

I think some of the new Kin panels are bechdel test passing - the ones where they're talking about how to get the maze working. It would be nice to see some more badass female monsters join the teams though, and preferably some that aren't involved in any kind of romance whatsoever. There's not many females are aren't sexy either (bearing in mind that in a post Thunt made he was deliberately setting out to make Kin sexy). Failing that put in some more sexy males. Nothing distracts me from a lack of depth in female characters like some sweet-sweet man candy.

I'm probably going to get a lot of links to non-sexy female characters that I've forgotten about now. I kind of look forward to it.

[harlequin]

...If he wrote a comic that didn't, it wouldn't really allow him to hold it up as a mirror to us and say " Is it right, our doing it this particular way, even though I am making you laugh, think too, please...

I believe he routinely smashes the other assumptions however; he highlighted the whole 'humans good, monsters bad' preconception with a dozen depressing panels of torture and butchery showing that the humans are in fact the monsters. If it were meant to be a metaphor for gender inequality too then he's been much more subtle about it. I think what's more likely is that he didn't notice gender issues when he first designed and wrote the story (although he does address female rape and a few other issues).

[Stardance]

That's a good point about Forgath! I had forgotten about that.

AntMac I completely agree. I had some half-formed thoughts on the 'gaming comic' approach and its inherent limitations, but hadn't thought of a good way to express them yet. Thank you. Just the fact that there are some scenes that break the mold in such a male-focused genre is a wonderful sign. Of course they will be short - it is a comic.

I also think we're at the edge of a possible rearrangement of party composition. If Minmax and Forgath end up joining Complains, Kin could possibly end up joining the Dies & Co. story arc, which includes Saves-a-fox.

For the record, I'm not endorsing any story changes either - he has it already all mapped out, and he's a wonderful storyteller!

[harlequin]

I'd also like to highlight that this, a gaming forum, has not exploded on discussing sexism and gender equality. Which is pretty freaking amazing. (anyone seen hey ash whatcha playing?)

[LAYF]

Well... thne ting is... can you count a conversation over multiple "times"? because the conversation fumblesfan mentions is only 8-9 is rounds (48-54 sec)

http://www.goblinscomic.org/09212012/

Two updates in a row. . . I think that's the best you're going to do.

but if you can take their "talk" from the start then, here: http://www.goblinscomic.org/07242012/
from that one, and forward, you have to count "rounds" each being 6 seconds (no matter the amount of talk)
and I count a total of 12. so that's on 1min and 12 sec (unless mentioning their male god counts? then its only 9 rounds)

And looking around in the comic.. that is also the longest I can find....


But I'd like to note, there is a conversation of gender equality in the Controversy sub-forum. started as a split of of Thunts latest blog: http://www.goblinscomic.org/gender-equality/
the thread is here: http://www.goblinsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=823 if it has interest.

please do not make THIS a controversial topic. if it becomes such, I'll have to move said content.


Best regards -LAYF-

[ChuckDaRighteous]

This is an area that has always bothered me about goblins. I think unfortunately Thunt wrote the story years ago, and has grown as a person since (by his own admission I believe). But I'd rather see the original story with slightly weak female characterisations in it, than have him change it to fit with his new views. Maybe he can do a webcomic about a team of female goblin adventurers once he's finished this comic.

I don't think the goblin's story was written without depth of female characters, simply a lack of female characters. The only prominent female characters are Kin and saves. In my opinion the fortune teller or dub don't really count. Kin has a compelling backstory, her own strengths and weaknesses as a character, varied and believable interactions, and a real-life basis (even if its only loosely based). I feel she is a rather rich character. The same goes for saves. She has a backstory that drives a very believable character motivation and rather believable interactions with others. There are occasional moments where their actions are questionable, but not fully unbelievable and no more so than moments the male characters have had. In fact I think Thunt drew attention to people's awful characterizations of women even if it is only a specific context.

As to the Bechdel test. I don't think it really passes because there is a lack of female characters. The GAP is void of women aside from the brief time they had the fortune teller. Kin is the only one in her group. Saves the only one in hers. Duv is the only female viper clan we've met. We've had very limited interactions with the alt kins. Ultimately, I think it fails not because of the lack of depth to the characters that its supposed to test for, but a lack of female characters.

I take some issue with this test because, while its supposed to test for sexist portrayals of women, its a rather limited in scope. One example I could think of to highlight this was the movie Master and Commander. There is one scene with one woman who doesn't say a word that lasts at most 20 seconds when they're resupplying at some island. Aside from that there are no women in the movie, because women did not serve on ships in that era. Does that make the movie sexist or historically accurate? I think that if you call a movie sexist because its focus doesn't extend to women's issues is inaccurate. Now Master and Commander is an extreme example. Very few movies are that void of female characters. However, does that put a threshold on how much women need be involved in the plot before the test can be applied? Often I've seen movies focus on a single male character. He may have interactions with women and they may excellent portrayals of women in that situation, but it could still fail the Bechdel test. Now if it took 2 minutes to focus on two women it may suddenly pass? Often that sort of thing wouldn't fit the plot of the movie so to discredit it for not having that would be inappropriate. Not to mention, I hardly think that interaction between women solely defines the depth of a woman. I think the test is flawed.

[harlequin]

Chuck you're right, I'm sorry, I was incorrect in saying:

Nothing distracts me from a lack of depth in female characters like some sweet-sweet man candy.

Instead I'd like to amend it to:

Nothing distracts me from a lack of female characters like some sweet-sweet man candy.

Your point about Thunt highlighting the awful characterisations of women was good.

(Personal opinions being portrayed as fact warning....) The whole point of the bechdel test is to test for a lack of female characters and interactions between them. It's not supposed to test for sexist portrayals at all - it doesn't care about sexist portrayals. The latest fast and furious movie passed it for crying out loud. It's only supposed to highlight the massive imbalance of genders on screen. In an ideal world every film wouldn't pass the bechdel test (although master and commander was a terrible film so in an ideal world it wouldn't exist), but in an ideal world most would pass it. It tests for smurfetting, which is depressingly common, even in our beloved goblins webcomic.

Goblins is an excellent area for bechdel to be applied; there are a lot of characters having a lot of dialog. How much of that dialog is between women, talking about things that aren't men? Not a massive amount. However it does pass, which I'm sure is better than many other webcomics.

[WearsHats]

The idea of Bechdel (which, it should be noted, was never intended as an actually test and was originally solely applied to movies) is to check whether women were included as more than token characters and/or love interests. Passing the test does not by any means mean that the work is not sexist, nor does falling it mean that it is. Still, it's a simple but sometimes very telling check, which far too often is failed.

So, yes. I'd say Fox vs Duv counts. Two strong, developed female characters having a debate (with words and weapons) about the nature of goblins and what they should be striving for.

I'd also agree that the conversations between the various Kins count.

But the larger point is that we have developed, interesting, and important female characters. They do a lot more than be rescued, be sought after romantically, and/or sit around having vacuous small talk about men.

There aren't that many female characters, but in part that's because the D&D world is specifically set up so that female goblins are very rarely seen. But a running theme in the comic is pointing out ways in which the typical assumptions of a D&D world are wrong/stupid/silly/illogical. Fox stands as an example of a capable and independent female goblin warrior.

I should also point out that the story isn't finished. New characters are still being introduced. And old characters are headed for various meetings. Bechdel is supposed to test a complete work.

[ChuckDaRighteous]

(Personal opinions being portrayed as fact warning....) The whole point of the bechdel test is to test for a lack of female characters and interactions between them. It's not supposed to test for sexist portrayals at all - it doesn't care about sexist portrayals.

I agree it doesn't, but the following bit from wikipedia on it lead me to believe it is meant to or at least treated as such:

The test, which has been described as "the standard by which feminist critics judge television, movies, books and other media", moved into mainstream criticism in the 2010s.[11] By 2013, an Internet newspaper described it as "almost a household phrase, common shorthand to capture whether a film is woman-friendly"

...

According to Neda Ulaby, the test still resonates because "it articulates something often missing in popular culture: not the number of women we see on screen, but the depth of their stories, and the range of their concerns."

...

Nina Power wrote that the test raises the questions of whether fiction has a duty to represent women (rather than to pursue whatever the creator's own agenda might be) or to be "realistic" in the representation of women.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what I read. I'll admit I'd never heard of the test before today so I'm not that familiar with the subject. That said if its not meant to determine a fair portrayal of women, what is the point of this test? It seems rather pointless to me

although master and commander was a terrible film so in an ideal world it wouldn't exist

On this we (and I'm sure everyone else) agree. It just fit as a good example.

[Godbot]

Yeah, Kin vs. Duv definitely counts. The Kins talking about how to fight Psimax sorta counts, too; They're talking about how to fight Psimax, not about their relationships with him, but then again, they're not really having a real conversation as developed characters, either. They're basically just providing exposition.

That said, I definitely wouldn't mind more female characters.

[Glemp]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what I read. I'll admit I'd never heard of the test before today so I'm not that familiar with the subject. That said if its not meant to determine a fair portrayal of women, what is the point of this test? It seems rather pointless to me.

The point is that even with a flawed, unfair test with extremely lax standards, so damn many films fail it. So it's meant to highlight a problem across a broad range of films, rather than one work specifically.

[BanditoWalrus]

Forgath qualifies as a girl. Maybe. That's a tricky one.

But if we count Forgath as a girl, then we must count every NPC as male (played by Herbert).

[ChuckDaRighteous]

The point is that even with a flawed, unfair test with extremely lax standards, so damn many films fail it. So it's meant to highlight a problem across a broad range of films, rather than one work specifically.

I see your point. However, by that reasoning I could do the reverse and point out many films where there are not two male characters talk about something other than women (most of which tend to be "chick flicks"). The number would probably be higher if villains were not predominantly male (or at least in my experience, there are more psimaxes, goblin slayers, and Kores than Duvs). So could I then conclude that the movie industry degrades men to nothing more than horny sex-crazed hump-monkeys with perpetual boners? No, but putting in a scene with two guys discussing football is about as appropriate as putting in scene with two women discussing shoes. (Its probably degrading to say shoes as a common women's topic, but I'm far from understanding the female sex, so insert whatever you think would be appropriate, babies? weddings? I don't know) The point is it doesn't fit all movies.

If you're admitting that its not a problem with the individual entity, I have a problem seeing it reflect a problem with the whole. Many that don't pass the Bechdel test do accurately and positively portray women. So while I think there are many that do inaccurately portray women, I feel the test inaccurately inflates that percentage, falsely turning a problem with specific films into an industry wide problem.

[ForgetsOldName]

Master and Commander completely fails the Bechdel test, and the point of the test to highlight what a high percentage of movies don't even consider women. The original Allison Bechdel comic panels were two women trying to find a movie to watch. The problem is not that women didn't serve on ships but that Hollywood doesn't make movies about what women were doing in the eighteenth century because women's lives aren't even on commercial culture's radar.

[ChuckDaRighteous]

Master and Commander completely fails the Bechdel test, and the point of the test to highlight what a high percentage of movies don't even consider women. The original Allison Bechdel comic panels were two women trying to find a movie to watch. The problem is not that women didn't serve on ships but that Hollywood doesn't make movies about what women were doing in the eighteenth century because women's lives aren't even on commercial culture's radar.

First off, again it doesn't accurately portray which movies fail to consider women. Many movies can portray women and their issues and still fail. Second, women were mostly isolated to a sit home, do the house keeping, and raise the kids role. So if the majority of major historical events in the 18th century were mostly perpetrated by or solely participated in by men, the movie industry is supposed to ignore the majority of scripts depicting the male dominated events in hopes to even it out? Or maybe do four times as many movies on each of the female historical figures? That's a problem not with Hollywood or the audience's interests, its the nature of the time period. Unless you want to argue that raising kids in that era should be of a major significant interest to most viewers. Granted I have to concede it would likely out class Master and Commander, but that's not a high bar. But a typical life of a person just isn't of equal interest to historical events. The point is all events, lives, and plots are not equal. I read the statistics of what percentage of movies passed the test. It would be interesting to see what percentage of movies pass based on the eras they are set in, even if I'm still convinced that the test is pointless.

[LAYF]

A gently reminder!

This is NOT controversy forum

It is fine you discuses if the test applies to the comic and where how and why/why not.
but leaving the comic out, you move into controversial topics.... please, keep them where they belong.

Best regards -LAYF- Moderator team -

[AntMac]

...If he wrote a comic that didn't, it wouldn't really allow him to hold it up as a mirror to us and say " Is it right, our doing it this particular way, even though I am making you laugh, think too, please...

I believe he routinely smashes the other assumptions however; he highlighted the whole 'humans good, monsters bad' preconception with a dozen depressing panels of torture and butchery showing that the humans are in fact the monsters. If it were meant to be a metaphor for gender inequality too then he's been much more subtle about it. I think what's more likely is that he didn't notice gender issues when he first designed and wrote the story (although he does address female rape and a few other issues).

I think you might be right ( at the risk of putting words in his mouth . . or is that ink in his pen? ) and any thoughts he had about making it about gender issues came afterwards, maybe?. Or at least he just adapted to include things as time went on. Pretty clearly MinMax is addressing those issues at the moment, or trying to, hard to tell as his foot is in his mouth at the moment.

Anyway, my point was that, setting up to gently poke fun at the Genres mistakes or faults, he set his stage firmly with tropes and settings from the genre, so that meant he didn't/couldn't begin with a Bechdel passing story. A lot of the Genres mistakes come specifically along with the heavily male player make-up and writers etc. Things are changing though!. But writing the story to make points about what we normally did, he had to make the story about what we normally did. So in its set up it was always going to fail that particular test.

I think he would be one of the people aware of it, too, of course.

[AntMac]

although master and commander was a terrible film so in an ideal world it wouldn't exist

On this we (and I'm sure everyone else) agree. [/ quote]


Bite Your Tongue !.

It is a bit strange picking a Historical story about a Naval Vessel in Time of War on a Military Mission, and then testing it on the presence of women. How could HMS Surprise hope to have any conversation at all between women?

( That said, of course, it very easily could have , and been perfectly true to potential historical events. There were a couple of dozen women aboard the thirty ships fighting at The Nile )