17 Dec 2013 - "Brother!"

[Quild]

Kore is NO PALADIN!

That was already clear when he animated and spoke the the dead teller. A paladin does not animate dead, even if it is only for interrogation and if it is only a dead evil being. That is necromancy.
Still, it seems he got some crazy prestige class which still uses some of the paladin features, since he got lay on hands. I think if there wasn't anything that fit to this, Thunt just created it.

For example Insanadin, Necroladin, Fallen paladin or posessed paladin. Dropping your former good god and picking a dark, evil one instead maybe. Or deep inside Kore wants to get the demon controlling him also get trapped inside the axe, therefore searching for it. Would also fit for his IME, as there are souls chained to him. Soul stealing/torturing screams so much for a demon being involved, it would surprise me if there wasn't any.

Would allow some kind of Darth Vader end, with him saying "Thanks for freeing me", then he dies.

Regardless of any hints about him not being a Paladin, Kore is a Paladin.
The axe of Prissan recognize him as a Paladin.
He can use Lay of Hands.

Plus, the spell he uses on Young and Beautiful would be ÔÇ£Speak with deadÔÇØ rather than ÔÇ£animate deadÔÇØ. And there is nothing wrong with this spell.
To consider that it would be ok to interrogate an evil dead creature while it is not ok to interrogate an evil good creature would be quite neutral. Either the process is good, either itÔÇÖs not.
To KoreÔÇÖs eyes, Young and Beautiful was evil, though.

The fact that Kore sees evil always anywhere and isnt proven wrong by losing his powers surprises me, but there is something weird about Big Ears too and it may have been discussed long ago. Big Ears perceived evil in Brassmoons elites guards, and this kinda surprises me. They were ok with torture dungeon (as was the whole town) and had fun about it, which looks evil, but, well To human standards, they werent that much evil, right? Goblinslayer was the hero defending the town, he was a sicko, but seriously, how couldnt he have been detected as evil if he really was?

In Goblins, the whole alignment thing seems more complex than usual.

[Nerre]

You missed my core thesis and repeated things most of us know instead. We know the evil-good is complex in the comic. Also I think a paladin normally does not have those spells. But nevermind.

The core thesis again:
Being a paladin-based prestige class makes you something else. You are the prestige class then, although you have been a paladin before. It is basically an upgrade for the class, not a totally new class which removes all you add so far. You keep the levels of the base class, and normally don't loose any boni or features from it.
See him as a paladin+, but not the typical paladin you know. Maybe Thunt created a paladin based prestige class called Greyhill paladins, which is overzealous and astray, and which can commit evil acts, as long as they are convinced to fight evil. This would be the most simplistic approach, if you try to use okhams razor.

[J!!!]

Well of course he's bigger than the goblins, goblins are a small race, dwarves are medium, same as humans, they just replace about 8 inches of height for a good bit of width.

I know, that's not really my point. What I was trying to say was that Kore looks like he's a lot bigger than Forgath, who's the only dwarf we can really compare Kore to in terms of size. Looking at the links I gave, Forgath looks like he's barely bigger than Thaco, but Kore looks twice as tall as Chief, which would make him closer to Minmax's height. There are tons of pages, including the newest one, that show Forgath is a good head shorter than Minmax.
Even if Kore and Forgath are the same size though, my point stands that Kore must be quite a bit closer than he was in the last page for Minmax to visually identify his race.

i think that's largely a trick of the perspective the scene is drawn from. the high angle looking down at the subjects places kore visually 'above' chief. meanwhile the framing of the panel cuts off chief's body at around the base of his thorax, effectively cutting his height down by more than half. thunt used many of the same tricks way back when chief faced fogarth.

now, if we take the full-bodied chief from the 2'nd to last panel, and blow him up to the same visual size as the partial chief from the last panel, we can then place him on the same visual plane as kore to get a more accurate comparison (not accounting for changes in perspective, posture, or inconstancy in the illustration). like so:


now depending on where his chin lies in that beard, kore is thus a bit more than a full head taller than chief, & five times as wide at the shoulders. however, that's with his armor on, and we have no way of knowing just how much bulk & height it adds to his actual body.


the example you gave of fogarth vs thaco is also a bit tricky to judge, since the former is hunched way forward, and the latter is clinging to his back with most of his body concealed. a clearer one would be comparing fogarth & senor vorpal kickasso in the fourth panel of this page. they are both fully visible, on almost the same visual plane, and have similar postures.

from that (though not accounting for the significant difference in art style), we can judge that fogarth is probably a little less than one full head taller than fumbles, which would make him slightly shorter than kore, but not significantly. he's also significantly less broad, but again, no idea how much of that comes from their armor (though fogarth's is almost certainly lighter & less bulky than kore's)

[J!!!]

wow, that was quite a lot of words to make a very minor point.

do i really have nothing better to be doing right now?

like maybe sleeping?

[Nerre]

Yes, you got nothing better to do. Else you would not respond to your own post. Or at least edit it in.

[Quild]

You missed my core thesis and repeated things most of us know instead. We know the evil-good is complex in the comic. Also I think a paladin normally does not have those spells. But nevermind.

The core thesis again:
Being a paladin-based prestige class makes you something else. You are the prestige class then, although you have been a paladin before. It is basically an upgrade for the class, not a totally new class which removes all you add so far. You keep the levels of the base class, and normally don't loose any boni or features from it.
See him as a paladin+, but not the typical paladin you know. Maybe Thunt created a paladin based prestige class called Greyhill paladins, which is overzealous and astray, and which can commit evil acts, as long as they are convinced to fight evil. This would be the most simplistic approach, if you try to use okhams razor.

Yeah I missed this thesis but this would be totally homebrew.
A prestige class that makes that your paladins skills are kept regardless of how you act but allows you to be Paladin enough for the Axe of Prissan. I seriously doubt it.
Paladin's code is very, very, very strict in D&D. A paladin comitting an evil act will lost his powers even if he got lured. Redemption may be easier to get in this sort of case, but a LG god won't let an insane paladin or a possessed paladin keep he's power.

Sorry I had to tell again things you already knew, but you started by speaking of "Animate Dead" in stead of "Speak with dead" and spoke about necromancy spell. You were so wrong in a first place that I had to start with basis.

I almost wanted to say (and should have) that the spell used wasn't a sign of Kore being a 6th level Cleric as well (in order to have access to third level spells). The spell doesn't require a component that may be a pill, except if this pill would be Kore's Divine Focus... I doubt that. These pills seems to be a magical item with the effect of Speak with Dead. And I think this is homebrew, yes.

[thinkslogically]

Big Ears perceived evil in BrassmoonÔÇÖs elites guards, and this kinda surprises me. .

I *THINK* that Big Ears freaked out about the evil in the Axe of Prissan, not in the elite guards. It's how he knew Saral Caine was around, because he could feel the axe coming.

[J!!!]

The core thesis again:
Being a paladin-based prestige class makes you something else. You are the prestige class then, although you have been a paladin before. It is basically an upgrade for the class, not a totally new class which removes all you add so far. You keep the levels of the base class, and normally don't loose any boni or features from it.
See him as a paladin+, but not the typical paladin you know. Maybe Thunt created a paladin based prestige class called Greyhill paladins, which is overzealous and astray, and which can commit evil acts, as long as they are convinced to fight evil. This would be the most simplistic approach, if you try to use okhams razor.

but that's not simple at all; it makes the story much more complicated by adding an entirely new element which directly contradicts earlier established elements. to do so this late in the story, and without any buildup or foreshadowing would be rather more sloppy storytelling than we should give thunt credit for. it'd be like watching The Godfather, only to have a plot twist half way through where it turns out that there was actually a sixth family that had never been mentioned or hinted at, and it was made up of space-aliens.

[Krulle]

This reminds me of the Tempts Fate puzzles: http://www.goblinscomic.org/tempts-fate-10/
It would be nice to have a larger copy here, to speculate about it...

(And a quick donation drive: a certain amount of solutions must be correct, and a certain amount of support money come in, otherwise Big Ears will die.)

[Nerre]

We already did this on the previous pages of this thread.

[arkajalka]

I think this can't be the time when Forgaths omen comes true. Or maybe it does. All in all what i have seen happen in goblins is that the omens usually come true, but so unexpecting ways. Maybe Forgath will die, but does the gap or mm have some sort of way to bring back dead people. Or maybe Kore gets a chance of heart after fogarth is dead and ressurects him. I bet also that kin has a lot to do with the "downfall/change of heart" of this killing machine, but we have to wait for while. Atleast till kin finds a way to get the pot back to where it belongs.

Ps. First post! Not a first timer though. I've been following the forums for some time now, but you guys always come up with the same speculations what i do so dont want to repost the same speculation.

[Krulle]

We already did this on the previous pages of this thread. :D

I saw that, and I won't participate in speculating about the puzzle yet.

What I meant was that I'd want a (larger) clean copy, without the bars.
We'll see how it goes. Thaco has quite some age, and age gives a stackable wisdom bonus.

[warrl]

I think this can't be the time when Forgaths omen comes true. Or maybe it does. All in all what i have seen happen in goblins is that the omens usually come true, but so unexpecting ways. Maybe Forgath will die, but does the gap or mm have some sort of way to bring back dead people.

The GAP is way too low-level for any power that would raise the dead. And the only one of them of a class to get such a power is already in need of it. (The 11-class guy set aside, because the rest of the GAP would have to be epic before he'd get anywhere close.)

So any such spell must come from outside the GAP.

Minmax is a Fighter/Barbarian. Neither gets spells. And he probably can't use magic devices that have to be activated (such as scrolls and wands).

However, a few members of the GAP are probably, and a few are possibly, capable of using such magical devices.

[g2knee]

I'm new to the forum, but I've read the comic for a long time.

I was so confused by this issue I had to register and post. I know everyone is already talking about this, but what is the deal with Kore? I cannot wrap my mind around this situation:

-Dwarf paladin is chasing goblins, inherently evil creatures. The paladin may or may not be deranged but he's definitely ruthless.
-Dwarf Paladin sees a Human and Dwarf fighting the goblins, and his quarry begins to flee
-Dwarf Paladan attacks the Human and Dwarf.

WTF? I was anticipating at the very least, Minmax and Forgrath would step aside to allow the raging Kore some space -- or at the most they would team up. I don't know how to make sense of this series of events. I have no choice but to assume Kore missed and accidentally released a volley upon Minmax and Forgrath while he was trying to hit the goblins.

[Gurgeh]

Would someone be kind enough to link to the story in the archives that the ante-penultimate panel is refering to ? I remember pretty well the prophecy by the goblin shamaness, but not these.

[Wandering Mage]

I'm new to the forum, but I've read the comic for a long time.

I was so confused by this issue I had to register and post. I know everyone is already talking about this, but what is the deal with Kore? I cannot wrap my mind around this situation:

-Dwarf paladin is chasing goblins, inherently evil creatures. The paladin may or may not be deranged but he's definitely ruthless.
-Dwarf Paladin sees a Human and Dwarf fighting the goblins, and his quarry begins to flee
-Dwarf Paladan attacks the Human and Dwarf.

WTF? I was anticipating at the very least, Minmax and Forgrath would step aside to allow the raging Kore some space -- or at the most they would team up. I don't know how to make sense of this series of events. I have no choice but to assume Kore missed and accidentally released a volley upon Minmax and Forgrath while he was trying to hit the goblins.

One, he may have saw them stop fighting and talking.

Two, we may not be supposed to make sense of it yet, because information relevant to that hasn't been revealed yet. Things would be boring in stories if motivations and actions always immediately make sense to the reader.

[Jochi]

Sorry I had to tell again things you already knew, but you started by speaking of "Animate Dead" in stead of "Speak with dead" and spoke about necromancy spell. You were so wrong in a first place that I had to start with basis.

I almost wanted to say (and should have) that the spell used wasn't a sign of Kore being a 6th level Cleric as well (in order to have access to third level spells). The spell doesn't require a component that may be a pill, except if this pill would be Kore's Divine Focus... I doubt that. These pills seems to be a magical item with the effect of Speak with Dead. And I think this is homebrew, yes.

Not all that homebrew. "Potions" are allowed to come in a variety of forms, not necessarily a small flask of liquid. Creating a "Speak with Dead potion" as a pill is quite easily something a monstrous shaman could have done, and Kore could have gleaned the thing(s) from the "evil" creature's body or lair after cleansing the world of him/her. Anyone can use a potion.

I doubt the "Greyhill Paladins as an ends-justifies prestige class" makes sense as a solution. I wonder if Kore is the last of them because, shortly after whatever epiphany made him realize he must destroy anyone who has ever had contact with Evil, he realized all his comrades-in-arms had had such contact while destroying Evil. HE killed them, and is saving himself for last, after he has killed everything else in the world with an intelligence score of 3 or more. Hence "scourge of the realm".

[Quild]

Would someone be kind enough to link to the story in the archives that the ante-penultimate panel is refering to ? I remember pretty well the prophecy by the goblin shamaness, but not these.

Here it is : http://www.goblinscomic.org/12152009/
4 years and 4 days ago ^^

@Jochi: Oh, that is interesting to know, thanks!

[Wandering Mage]

Sorry I had to tell again things you already knew, but you started by speaking of "Animate Dead" in stead of "Speak with dead" and spoke about necromancy spell. You were so wrong in a first place that I had to start with basis.

To be fair, and for accuracy's sake, "Speak with Dead" IS a necromancy spell. And there is absolutely nothing that forbids a paladin from using necromancy. Most spells that deal with the dead or death are necromancy spells, and there are plenty without the [Evil] descriptor. Gentle Repose which preserves bodies is necromancy. Inflict spells are necromancy, as is Disrupt Undead, Halt Undead, and Undeath to Death. (You also probably knew a bunch us this, I expect you overlooked that it was necromancy or something, but I imagine this might help others understand things too)

[Kore]

You better watch out
You better not cry
You better not pout
I'm telling you why
Paladin Kore is coming to town
Paladin Kore is coming to town
Paladin Kore is coming to town

He's making a list,
Checking it twice;
Gonna find out who's evil or nice.
Paladin Kore is coming to town
Paladin Kore is coming to town
Paladin Kore is coming to town

He sees you when you've been sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been friends with bad
So don't for goodness sake

[WastesTime]

You needn't watch out
You don't need to care
Cause Kore will kill you
And that just ain't fair
Paladin Kore is coming to town

He sees you all as evil
He does suffer no curse
He'll kill you anyway that's why
It can't get any worse

PS. We could also do Jingle Bells

Advancing down the bridge
To destroy his current prey
Bent on killing all
That dare stand in his way

Of armor bolts bounce off
Hatchets'll do the trick
How can Kore be a Pal?
The thought just makes me sick

Oh! Jingle Bells, Kore smells
Minmax gonna rage
Oh, what shame that Forgath's there
We'll just have to turn the page

[stevedj]

Well. Hope Forgath has the wits to ask for Minmax racist axe before he goes off to delay Kore long enough for the others to escape.

And when Forgath realizes this, he's going to exclaim "MinMax... you GENIUS!!!"

[YardMeat]

I'm new to the forum, but I've read the comic for a long time.

I was so confused by this issue I had to register and post. I know everyone is already talking about this, but what is the deal with Kore? I cannot wrap my mind around this situation:

-Dwarf paladin is chasing goblins, inherently evil creatures.

In THunt's universe, they aren't. I doubt any member of the GAP is evil and Kore, who is capable of sensing evil at whim, is perfectly aware of that.

The paladin may or may not be deranged but he's definitely ruthless.

He's definitely both. He killed an innocent child because the child might become evil in his adulthood. He's one of the most deranged characters we've seen in the comic so far.

-Dwarf Paladin sees a Human and Dwarf fighting the goblins, and his quarry begins to flee
-Dwarf Paladan attacks the Human and Dwarf.

MM and Forgath are standing between him and his target. Plus they are in his way.

WTF? I was anticipating at the very least, Minmax and Forgrath would step aside to allow the raging Kore some space -- or at the most they would team up.

There's no way Forgath would team up with him, since he already knows who he is. And MM isn't going to team up with someone that Forgath identifies as a "scourge of the realm."

I don't know how to make sense of this series of events. I have no choice but to assume Kore missed and accidentally released a volley upon Minmax and Forgrath while he was trying to hit the goblins.

He's a deranged psychopath who feels the urge to kill anyone who could potentially become evil. Two (potentially evil?) adventurers are blocking his shot. If you are as nanners as Kore, it makes sense just to shoot through them.

[Unlucky-for-Some]

-Dwarf Paladin sees a Human and Dwarf fighting the goblins, and his quarry begins to flee
-Dwarf Paladan attacks the Human and Dwarf.

It is also worth keeping in mind that (in addition to his usual psychopathic outlook) Kore does not yet know if MM&F are evil or not. The fact that they are fighting goblins does not mean that they are good. Evil adventurers would fight goblins too - that's how 1st level evil adventurers get to be 2nd level evil adventurers. Everybody kills goblins for the XP as much because they are easy(ish) XP and because nobody is going to raise an objection to it as because they are a clear and present danger to civilization.

Sure, Kore could check them out with Detect Evil, although it doesn't seem to be SOP for him, probably because he just assumes everyone is evil. Even so, Detect Evil has a range limit of 60 feet and he looks like he is still further away than that at present.

[Degrassie]

Would someone be kind enough to link to the story in the archives that the ante-penultimate panel is refering to ? I remember pretty well the prophecy by the goblin shamaness, but not these.

Here it is : http://www.goblinscomic.org/12152009/
4 years and 4 days ago ^^

@Jochi: Oh, that is interesting to know, thanks!

....Is it me or does the talking wall look VERY similar to Minmax? I'm aware my theory's far-fetched (FAR-FAR-fetched) but what if the wall actually IS Minmax, which would explain why he knows Forgat will get killed by a dwarf?