Jan 29 - the dungeon maw

[EatsAPeach]

Kore makes as much sense in this world as a talking wall (how does it inhale and exhale?) or a monster made out of fingers or an OWLbear. Kin is impossible for that matter, and both MM and Forgath are puppets being run by offstage players. Not to mention what Junior did to those minor players - did they feel real panic and then pain? What the heck kind of game IS this anyway? What kind of D&D system breaks your heart in the real world? MinMax is suffering from Kin's loss and now Forgath is endangered too? There are wheels within wheels within wheels, all turning in different directions, and after you've spent hours commenting on the plot, you can't really say "THunt's not a very good writer" with a straight face. We aren't here for the free beer.

GOBLINS is not predictable, except in general. Bad people get set on fire and stabbed, eventually. Good people get to go on living unless they die heroically. Based on that, Kore will either be eating a mace soon, or Forgath will either die heroically or do something unpredictable. But I think Kore is a riddle to be solved as much as he is an enemy to be fought, and we've just learned that Forgath may know Kore's backstory. Maybe they are going to parley now?

[Rooks]

Kore makes as much sense in this world as a talking wall (how does it inhale and exhale?) or a monster made out of fingers or an OWLbear. Kin is impossible for that matter, and both MM and Forgath are puppets being run by offstage players. Not to mention what Junior did to those minor players - did they feel real panic and then pain? What the heck kind of game IS this anyway? What kind of D&D system breaks your heart in the real world? MinMax is suffering from Kin's loss and now Forgath is endangered too? There are wheels within wheels within wheels, all turning in different directions, and after you've spent hours commenting on the plot, you can't really say "THunt's not a very good writer" with a straight face. We aren't here for the free beer.

GOBLINS is not predictable, except in general. Bad people get set on fire and stabbed, eventually. Good people get to go on living unless they die heroically. Based on that, Kore will either be eating a mace soon, or Forgath will either die heroically or do something unpredictable. But I think Kore is a riddle to be solved as much as he is an enemy to be fought, and we've just learned that Forgath may know Kore's backstory. Maybe they are going to parley now?

That actually does bring up a great point I've been thinking about lately. How many PCs do we have in this campaign? Has Thunt ever 'let the cat out of the bag' on that? I mean you could argue that you'd have three sets of PCs (GAP; MinMax, Forgath, and Kin; and the party that Junior wiped). That would be insane to have a campaign like that. Sign me up!

[Pirate Mouse]

Hey, I've gotten punched in the junk by a 5 year old... they're nothing to mess with... And baby fingernails are some of the sharpest materials known to man.

In all fairness, you were probably flat-footed, and some of the nastier five-year-olds may have Sneak Attack.

Plus, you're probably a level 1 commoner, which means you could be killed by an aggressive housecat.

[RedwoodElf]

Hey, I've gotten punched in the junk by a 5 year old... they're nothing to mess with... And baby fingernails are some of the sharpest materials known to man.

In all fairness, you were probably flat-footed, and some of the nastier five-year-olds may have Sneak Attack.

Plus, you're probably a level 1 commoner, which means you could be killed by an aggressive housecat.

Hey, we live at their whim. I, for one, welcome our tyrannical feline overlords!

[Tofu]

Thought - Tarol is Herbert's God.

[Corpsificus]

I just reread the comic, and I agree with Thunt's move to add another panel above Kore's ridiculous turtle flip. It really clarifies what he's doing and still doesn't require half the page to explain it!

[Sinik17]

Hey, I've gotten punched in the junk by a 5 year old... they're nothing to mess with... And baby fingernails are some of the sharpest materials known to man.

In all fairness, you were probably flat-footed, and some of the nastier five-year-olds may have Sneak Attack.

Plus, you're probably a level 1 commoner, which means you could be killed by an aggressive housecat.

That is freakin' brilliant.

[BuildsLegos]

Thought - Tarol is Herbert's God.

You need to watch Players: Life Through Their Eyes on Youtube, episode 3 makes reference to this exact idea.

[Unlucky-for-Some]

I didn't expect Forgath to win, I expected him to die.

What I would have liked is if Forgath had scratched Kore or had done something to show that Kore isn't invulnerable. Sure, he still would lose and nobody would have a chance, but it would show that Kore can be damaged. That although he couldn't win this fight, he could still make Kore shed blood, if only a little. That he could have an effect, even if he could not win (and also, why should levels be the end-all of who wins fights? Why not clever usage of the terrain and materials at hand, or using things other than a direct fight? Where's the drama if it's mathematically certain who wins?)

That would make Kore more mortal, and the effect would be greater if Forgath broke one of Kore's crossbows. It doesn't save him, but it shows he accomplished something.
.

I think I have to disagree with you here Aliroz when you say that Forgath accomplished nothing. In fact he accomplished exactly what he set out to do - he slowed Kore down long enough for the door to be opened and for MinMax (and to a lesser degree the goblins) to get safely in. I don't believe that he went out there with any expectation of survival. He might have hoped for a miracle, but it was clearly a fairly faint hope given the circumstances.

[RedwoodElf]

Maybe Herbert has a house rule for something like what we used to call a 'Godcall" - A cleric could appeal for divine intervention if he was facing certain death, in exchange for (if he got the intervention, which was a roll based on their level and wisdom) for accepting a Geas from their deity or its representatives.

[Unlucky-for-Some]

Maybe Herbert has a house rule for something like what we used to call a 'Godcall" - A cleric could appeal for divine intervention if he was facing certain death, in exchange for (if he got the intervention, which was a roll based on their level and wisdom) for accepting a Geas from their deity or its representatives.

That would be very cool - I like the idea of that, although I gotta admit some members of my group would dip into Cleric just to pick up such a power. Maybe you'd want to house rule it to be available only after level x has been achieved - in the case of this particular situation let us hope that x=3

[raaabr]

I'm getting a very "Magician" Major Arcana Tarot card feel from Kore. A character who at first seems to wield great power, but is later revealed to be a charlatan. Or a fake. On the other hand, the "fool", or Minmax/Complains, is always constantly getting into dangerous situations but is also able to do great things and make great self-discoveries.

[Pirate Mouse]

Maybe Herbert has a house rule for something like what we used to call a 'Godcall" - A cleric could appeal for divine intervention if he was facing certain death, in exchange for (if he got the intervention, which was a roll based on their level and wisdom) for accepting a Geas from their deity or its representatives.

That would be very cool - I like the idea of that, although I gotta admit some members of my group would dip into Cleric just to pick up such a power. Maybe you'd want to house rule it to be available only after level x has been achieved - in the case of this particular situation let us hope that x=3

Or just keep it purely in the realm of "GM fiat" so that the GM can avoid giving it to "dabblers" who aren't that seriously devoted (in other words, they're dipping just for the ability). The bigger problems I can see with giving clerics an "ability" like that are twofold: first, clerics are already one of the big four brokenly overpowered core classes (the other three being wizard, druid, and to a slightly lesser extent, sorcerer), being as they are full casters and furthermore full casters who can wear plate armor and are fully capable of outfighting fighters (by exploiting Persistent DMM) while also having full casting ability to level 9 and losing nothing.

That is ... not the kind of class I think of when I think, "Gee, these guys really need something to help them out."

And secondly, there's actually a spell for just that sort of "God, could you hook me up with a miracle?" kind of request. It's called, appropriately enough ... Miracle! And needless to say, Forgath doesn't have it.

Of course, a GM can always have a character's deity save him/her as a one-off, cleric or no, but then you're dealing with literal Deus ex Machina. Fudging rolls and giving the player some sort of unexpected escape route without making it look like divine intervention is usually better for that sort of thing, but Herbert's campaign seems pretty straightforward and brutal, with PC death left as a very real possibility. See: Chief.

[LordsBreed]

I am not sure why people keep referring to the rails as if they are on the shield. They are bolted onto his back and are a part of his armor, not his shield.

[spiderwrangler]

I am not sure why people keep referring to the rails as if they are on the shield. They are bolted onto his back and are a part of his armor, not his shield.

I think someone had posted that the shield *MUST* have rails on it where the attachment could slide, since it is attached to the the parts bolted to his back at different spots. When it is back, they are near the 'bottom' of the shield (which is at his shoulders), and when it is in front, they are at the top of the shield.

Since we've never seeeeeeen these rails (that I'm aware of), I'm just assuming that the shield is attached to those curved back pieces with magic magnets.

[hightechartist]

I didn't expect Forgath to win, I expected him to die.

What I would have liked is if Forgath had scratched Kore or had done something to show that Kore isn't invulnerable. Sure, he still would lose and nobody would have a chance, but it would show that Kore can be damaged. That although he couldn't win this fight, he could still make Kore shed blood, if only a little. That he could have an effect, even if he could not win (and also, why should levels be the end-all of who wins fights? Why not clever usage of the terrain and materials at hand, or using things other than a direct fight? Where's the drama if it's mathematically certain who wins?)

That would make Kore more mortal, and the effect would be greater if Forgath broke one of Kore's crossbows. It doesn't save him, but it shows he accomplished something.

What ticks me off is how it looked like we were going to see Forgath cleverly use his resources (like with the hammermace Axe giving him a longer reach than Kore's hatchets and also making Kore have to either fire into melee or use a shorter ranged weapon and thus be unable to shoot the goblins and min max) (and with the using Kore's great strength and bulk against him by getting him on his back).

I just Don't like the reveal that all of that resourcefulness did nothing and the REAL way to have an effect on Kore is to attain a higher power level and meet strength with strength.

But I've said my piece, and I'm done. The majority are okay with Kore the Hurricane and his flipping over stunt.

I'm on the same page as Aliroz. I don't really care how realistic or not Kore is, I just think this is bad storytelling.

[willpell]

That is ... not the kind of class I think of when I think, "Gee, these guys really need something to help them out."

I find it hilarious that people keep saying things like "clerics are overpowered", rather than "DMM/Persist is overpowered" or "multiple Nightsticks are overpowered". It's true that Clerics and Wizards get way more shiny toys than fighters and thieves, but the brokenness of the classes is usually tied to specific spells or class features (albeit often a LOT of them). If you're not intentionally being cheesy and using things that you know are unreasonably strong, it should be perfectly possible to build all four classes to the same balance point, in spite of the supposed "tier" difference. It's not the classes themselves that are overpowered; if you gave a fighter DMM and Persist and the ability to activate them somehow, he'd be even more broken than a cleric, because he'd have the good HD and full BAB and martial weapon proficiencies, on top of the ability to buff his party all day without spending anything he cares about.

but Herbert's campaign seems pretty straightforward and brutal, with PC death left as a very real possibility. See: Chief.

I guess the question ultimately becomes "how much does Herbert like being worshipped".

[Gryphonic]

I'm on the same page as Aliroz. I don't really care how realistic or not Kore is, I just think this is bad storytelling.

That Kore can get up from being thrown into reverse turtle mode I don't doubt, but I would have liked it better if it had taken Kore another few seconds to get up.
Forgath's clever move would have more effective and satisfying, with the same end result for the story. And we would have seen Forgath ALMOST make it to safety before the Maw closed, making THunt's signature kick-in-the-feels all the worse.

Maybe Herbert has a house rule for something like what we used to call a 'Godcall" - A cleric could appeal for divine intervention if he was facing certain death, in exchange for (if he got the intervention, which was a roll based on their level and wisdom) for accepting a Geas from their deity or its representatives.

That would be very cool - I like the idea of that, although I gotta admit some members of my group would dip into Cleric just to pick up such a power. Maybe you'd want to house rule it to be available only after level x has been achieved - in the case of this particular situation let us hope that x=3

Or just keep it purely in the realm of "GM fiat" so that the GM can avoid giving it to "dabblers" who aren't that seriously devoted (in other words, they're dipping just for the ability).

The homebrew game system I've been playing in for years has something like this called a Second Chance roll. As best I can render it in DnD terms, if you have completely failed to save yourself and hit -10, you can blow your accumulated exp to make just one more Saving Throw beseeching fate, luck, or some sympathetic deity to restore your soul to the mortal plane (either back to your body where it fell or appearing back "home", depending on the GM.)
I really like the idea of having a Geas laid on you for being saved, especially for someone who decides to roll off their Faith stat, which has a slightly lower DC. And adapting Unluckys' and Pirate's suggestions to enforce roleplaying the option and the result, instead of just being a mechanic to use at need. Thanks, I'll pitch it next campaign!

[Pirate Mouse]

I find it hilarious that people keep saying things like "clerics are overpowered", rather than "DMM/Persist is overpowered" or "multiple Nightsticks are overpowered". It's true that Clerics and Wizards get way more shiny toys than fighters and thieves, but the brokenness of the classes is usually tied to specific spells or class features (albeit often a LOT of them). If you're not intentionally being cheesy and using things that you know are unreasonably strong

... you're still a full caster with access to up to 9th level spells (and epic spells if playing into epic) who gets to wear plate armor and can still be on par with a typical fighter in melee combat with just a single spell: Divine Power. Plus you can still cast spells whenever you need throughout any fight and lose absolutely nothing. You just need to buff up with additional spells to completely surpass anything a fighter can ever hope to achieve, and doing that in advance and making it last all day is where Persistent DMM cheese comes in.

Meanwhile, the fighter is only useful in combat and otherwise twiddles his thumbs wishing he weren't totally worthless with his tiny skill list and lack of utility spells ... while the cleric, wizard, druid and even sorcerer (and of course rogue and bard) all have useful things to do all of the time, in and out of combat.

In combat ... essentially, if neither party is optimizing, then the cleric really only needs to cast Divine Power to be virtually equal to the fighter in physical combat, with the added benefit of having full spellcasting at the same time and genuine out-of-combat utility as well. If both parties are optimizing, the fighter is now probably something like an Ubercharger or Lockdown build, but the cleric is rocking Persistent DMM cheese and is on a whole other level.

To bring them to something like an even level, you pretty much need to have a fairly optimized fighter alongside a cleric who's just being played casually by someone who doesn't know anything about optimization (or is deliberately avoiding using that knowledge).

it should be perfectly possible to build all four classes to the same balance point, in spite of the supposed "tier" difference. It's not the classes themselves that are overpowered; if you gave a fighter DMM and Persist and the ability to activate them somehow, he'd be even more broken than a cleric, because he'd have the good HD and full BAB and martial weapon proficiencies, on top of the ability to buff his party all day without spending anything he cares about.

Theoretically, it's possible ... sort of. Some issues, like fighters being useless outside of combat, are pretty ingrained in the system and difficult to work around, to the point that a single cantrip (Prestidigitation) available to a level 1 wizard or sorcerer does more for out-of-combat utility than a typical level 20 fighter can do with all of his resources (not counting magical gear) combined, but sure, a highly optimized fighter can stay relevant in battle if nowhere else in a party filled with casual, non-optimized casters.

However, as for your hypothetical fighter with access to Persistent DMM, his having full BAB is irrelevant because of Divine Power; clerics effectively have full BAB as well in all but name. Weapon proficiencies, to the extent they really matter (honestly not much), can be obtained for free from certain domain choices. Your fighter would need full divine spellcasting to be really comparable, and then at that point it turns out there's already a class that looks just like what you're describing!

It's called "cleric."

[PrometheusLKR]

I am not sure why people keep referring to the rails as if they are on the shield. They are bolted onto his back and are a part of his armor, not his shield.

I think someone had posted that the shield *MUST* have rails on it where the attachment could slide, since it is attached to the the parts bolted to his back at different spots. When it is back, they are near the 'bottom' of the shield (which is at his shoulders), and when it is in front, they are at the top of the shield.

Since we've never seeeeeeen these rails (that I'm aware of), I'm just assuming that the shield is attached to those curved back pieces with magic magnets.

I assume the rails do exist, but they are simply not drawn, like Minmax's nipples.

[Gryphonic]

I assume the rails do exist, but they are simply not drawn, like Minmax's nipples.

Thank you for that. My mind is going to start subbing them in, like Schumacher's Batman.

[RocketScientist]

I'm on the same page as Aliroz. I don't really care how realistic or not Kore is, I just think this is bad storytelling.

That Kore can get up from being thrown into reverse turtle mode I don't doubt, but I would have liked it better if it had taken Kore another few seconds to get up.
Forgath's clever move would have more effective and satisfying, with the same end result for the story. And we would have seen Forgath ALMOST make it to safety before the Maw closed, making THunt's signature kick-in-the-feels all the worse.

That seems like a significantly more useful critique than anyone else has given.