Dungeon design and discussion

[LAYF]

okay... a bit on designing dungeons:

I made this dungeon:

► Show Spoiler

and I got a lot of interesting feedback, here among:
-Make rooms look like they have purpose. to come alive
-Decorate areas, to reinforce the above.

so I made this:

► Show Spoiler

And here are the feedback:

Ups, sorry, their tail are looking like legs lifted in the ear, making guards look like they are all pointlessly running.

Haha, thanks! I got it too now!
LAYF, those guards really look like they are running. Also I didn't perceive it as pointless.

Hmm.. :S Don't know what to say about this.. I can see what you all mean... just don't know how to fix it...

I see now! Yeah, those doors go a long way in helping us understand your layout! Of course, where there are doors, there had better be rooms to explore! Cos that's pretty much where your players are going to want to go.

Thanks, I thougth they would. I do like to have a net to hallways connect my dungeon, as, for a fortification of any kind, that is more effective than connecting rooms directly.
And off cause there are rooms to explore, I would not be so evil as to swing a piece of candy in front of the children of the internet and then steal it back right as they reach for it...

Anyway personally, I'd try and avoid having empty rooms if you can. If it takes a full action to enter a new area, your players are essentially wasting a day's turn to go to a place where there's nothing to do. Not a big thing, but worth thinking about I think. I might also try to include more puzzle-type elements just to mix things up a bit (though they're hard to make up, so if you make a good one don't waste it on a demo!)

About empty rooms, Yea... I know.. but on the other hand, full rooms over all will look weird in this case.. BUT: the setting i have in mind for this game will require some empty rooms and possible resting places.. I know that slows down a game, especially a forum game... I'm trying to think a way around this.... we will see....

Puzzles... yea.. I have a few... but only a few... so I'll safe those as you suggest

Also, your dungeon is massive, but there's not an enormous amount of variety to it. In hte Last Ditch Dungeon, LSN drew 10-12 areas and split the dungeon into territories belonging to different monster types to add variety, and also threw in a few unexpected things too. I understand why you've designed your dungeon the way you have, but it will take a LOOOONG time to explore playing on a forum and your players might get fed up with kobolds and snakes quite quickly. What you have now looks really cool, but would probably work better as a live game rather than one running at a forum pace.

Massive? serious? damn... Ehm... eh... yea....
I understand the idea with variation.. my standard style is to go 4-8 rooms of one type before shifting theme if its a Huge dungeon, or keep the whole dungeon in one theme if its small as this one, now... my kobolds vary, both in tactics and stats, that's what I'll use to add flavor. but I do see your point... and I'll try to make smaller dungeons in the future (even if it hurts my hearth )

I love the tapestries though! They also help to give a sense of who these guys are and what they're up to

Thanks I'm trying

Nice work LAYF! I really like it.

Thanks a lot Bob

So... next up.. I'll begin to work on my small side rooms...
The bonus of making such a "Demo" dungeon here is:
I get a lot of interior designs done.. and even some extra monsters from time to time.. (The kobolds was made 100% for this demo)

[Borys]

I really like it. Will every door lead just to a separate rooms, or they are all connected like the ones visible?

[LAYF]

I really like it. Will every door lead just to a separate rooms, or they are all connected like the ones visible?

Some are connected, some are not...
The cluster of 4 doors ((those highest up) are connected 2 and 2)
The one at the "hidden" entrance is a single room (and small to add)
The 3 at the bottom are connected too

[Borys]

Won't it be a bit too easy, when you see what's behind a door? I see it's just a prototype, in the actual game players won't see entire structure at once, right?

[LAYF]

Won't it be a bit too easy, when you see what's behind a door? I see it's just a prototype, in the actual game players won't see entire structure at once, right?

He he.. this is only a Demo yes.. In an actual game, players would only see what they could actually see from their respective positions... discovering thing a little by little..

The main purpose of this is to show the "back end" of developing a dungeon...
When I'm all done, I'll make a sheet with all the items I used and post it.. then all people have to do to make a dungeon like it is either copy the items and set them up as they like.OR If they feel really creative, replace the items one by one by their own design and then make a dungeon....

[thinkslogically]

Yeah, players move surprisingly slowly! But it deoends how you in the game. im assuming lsn type rules but if u had something else in mind it might go faster!

[LAYF]

Yeah, players move surprisingly slowly! But it deoends how you in the game. im assuming lsn type rules but if u had something else in mind it might go faster!

Nah.. I don't think any rules would really help speed things up... people still only post ever so often...

The reason I wont make a game with this style before all my other games are done is:
I was thinking more about setting it up as live update games.. I'd be running 2 in this style, with the hope of having the team able to come together once a week for a short run.. making 3+ updates at once... I hope that would be possible

[thinkslogically]

That's a cool idea, but dont underestimate the amount of drawing youll have when everyone charges off to different places or you need a new sprite. I'm not looking to be negative, but the workload is hugely skewed against you and it may well be difficult to get your players to wait for you or players who dont show up on time. Worth a try but you'll need to really think it through.

[LAYF]

That's a cool idea, but dont underestimate the amount of drawing youll have when everyone charges off to different places or you need a new sprite. I'm not looking to be negative, but the workload is hugely skewed against you and it may well be difficult to get your players to wait for you or players who dont show up on time. Worth a try but you'll need to really think it through.

Yea.. I know... I'll try and be as prepared as I can... I've proven to myself in the "getting back game" that I can make an update every 5'th┬┤10th minute if I got everything ready... thats also why I try to make as waste a sprite sheet as possible in advance...
My dungeons would all be 100% ready...
Its in layers,
1 for monsters and players (Would be manipulated each round
1 for doors and BG items (would be manipulated often),
1 for the near BG ites.. such as painting on the wall (not carpets, but paint or blood or such) this would nearly newer be manipulated---
and last a picture that is pure GB.. this would not be manipulated except in extreme cases...

here are the 4 pictures for this dungeon... in correct order:

► Show Spoiler

put together.. thy give the image above....

[BeanDip]

Yeah, players move surprisingly slowly!

Bah. It's not like players would ever spend several dozens turns inside of one tiny cave...

[ThroughTheWell]

Looks good. I think only a couple of the rooms feel too similar to the others or not distinctive enough (you have 3 1 snake rooms, and 4 ladder only rooms). Maybe add a differet colored door, different colored torch, or different colored floor. A smaller tapestry or painting before the boss room would also be good. Trap on the floor or on a ladder could be fun too.

I agree with someone above that this is a lot of rooms. You need stuff to make the game faster. Either: no more than 5 players, thieves auto check doors and chest for traps, if no trap players move into a room simultanious with opening the door or as far forward as they can, etc. Looks like a couple of the empty rooms are set up as rest areas for the players. But they may not need that if they just defeated the monsters in a room. If a class is mage, they should be able to cast a simple lock door spell. If a class is cleric, they may need to be able to dump a lot of healing rapidly (but only if they are not fighting). So, players should have staff, wand, spell, potion, etc, for rapid out of combat healing. Not a lot with any one method, but a lot of methods at once (+1 to each party meneber in 1 round kind of thing). Start the game with a rule: if you miss posting by X #days, the other players or GM will vote on your non-suicidal actions.

The dungeon does look like a bit of a grind: lots of rooms and only 3 main monster types in varying quantities. If I were you, while monsters to fit a theme is useful, I'd consider ways to pare down a few rooms, and ways to throw in a few more monster varieties. (Snakes falling from cieling holes from an otherwise unreachable room. More armor and weapon varieties on the guards. I see at least 3 pairs of rooms that can be combined by eliminating a mostly useless door. Etc.)

Again, it looks cool. But speed and more variety and I think you will be golden.

If you PM me an email, I might could send you your pic back defaced with specific room suggestions. Or you could post a pic that had numbers for all of the rooms.

[thinkslogically]

Yeah, players move surprisingly slowly!

Bah. It's not like players would ever spend several dozens turns inside of one tiny cave...

Pah! Of course not, that would be ridiculous!

[LAYF]

Okay...

Thanks everyone, I love feedback.. gives me somethings to work with...

About what you all way:

Yeah, players move surprisingly slowly!

Bah. It's not like players would ever spend several dozens turns inside of one tiny cave...

Yeah, players move surprisingly slowly!

Bah. It's not like players would ever spend several dozens turns inside of one tiny cave...

Pah! Of course not, that would be ridiculous!

Yes.. I can see this.. I mean... look at those small games like Lair of the mountain king... no room or space at all, and players just move through it all in no time at all... Really bad planing on the GM's side
(*sorry, I just had to.. I know you know, and for those who don't, I was kidding LOtMK is as cool game)

I agree with someone above that this is a lot of rooms. You need stuff to make the game faster. Either: no more than 5 players, thieves auto check doors and chest for traps, if no trap players move into a room simultanious with opening the door or as far forward as they can, etc. Looks like a couple of the empty rooms are set up as rest areas for the players. But they may not need that if they just defeated the monsters in a room. If a class is mage, they should be able to cast a simple lock door spell. If a class is cleric, they may need to be able to dump a lot of healing rapidly (but only if they are not fighting). So, players should have staff, wand, spell, potion, etc, for rapid out of combat healing. Not a lot with any one method, but a lot of methods at once (+1 to each party meneber in 1 round kind of thing). Start the game with a rule: if you miss posting by X #days, the other players or GM will vote on your non-suicidal actions.

The game was thought to be 3-5 players, no more, to keep speed and also game balance more easy. so, you nailed that one

Thieve Classes (there are 3 to choose among) do "auto check" in that they have a skill called "Spot" witch is essentially a auto version of "Search" but in difference from Search, Spot have a "awareness area" that is:
-With search, you have to beat the DC to find stuff or get no result
-With spot, If you beat the DC you find stuff, but even if you don't, getting close to the DC will alarm you to the presence of dangers
-Spot work as soon as a player enters a room, alerting him to any in room dangers.
-after battle (if any) Spot will work again, on any secrets such as hidden doors or traps on the other doors of the room (I do this, so I don't have to stop the Thief when he tries to open the door, to safe actions here and that way speed things up) of cause, if spot does not reveal anything, you can still try to search.

when opening a door, Trap or not, both the room you are in and the next will be reviled, using line of sight rules (But I might set each room in its own image, to make it more visible on the smaller screens, i'm not sure)

About rest, spells and healing; all magicians can heal to some degree, but some are better than others. out of combat, healing is more easy than in combat, and therefore cost less "fuel" for the fuel casters (there are 2 major types of casters, fuel casters and prep casters, fuel casters have less different spells and can cast less spells per resting time but can choose freely between those they know, prep casters knows more spells and can cast more of them, but must prepare a set of spells to use after each rest, and then stick with that until next rest.
Players can rest in any "cleared and secured" area BUT;
-They must camp together (or at least at the same time)
-Time passes when resting (1 hour or 1 day, depending on the rest type), and some missions are with a time limit (yes, this game will be run as a series of mini adventures, not just dungeon runs)
-When players rest, random monsters might walk into the open access areas, or if the adventures are really unlucky, break in and disturb their sleep (rare)

I Think I'll enforce the X'days max time.. and a max X of misses without notes and the spot is for fit (of-cause exceptions in the case of emergency)

Oh, and as I put a lot of effort into preparing this one (more than any one before) I will require role play, so if player X wants player Y to do something, his character must Ask/Demand/Say for him to do so in game (unless character Y could fairly know about it, then OOC talk is okay)


And, about Classes.. there will be 9 to choose among.... I've already got their standard images here:

► Show Spoiler

The dungeon does look like a bit of a grind: lots of rooms and only 3 main monster types in varying quantities. If I were you, while monsters to fit a theme is useful, I'd consider ways to pare down a few rooms, and ways to throw in a few more monster varieties. (Snakes falling from cieling holes from an otherwise unreachable room. More armor and weapon varieties on the guards. I see at least 3 pairs of rooms that can be combined by eliminating a mostly useless door. Etc.).

Well... snakes falling I'd consider a trap with a "summon monster" ability, so who knows, might be there already (okay, I'd not thought about that, but that's how I'll play it any how)
Yea, I'll vary the guards more by equipment and such in the actual game, I just don't want to show all the weapons and equipment off just yet...
while rooms can be combined by removing the door, that also removes suspension, doors and other thresholds are always an easy way to "spook" players. and also, in the need of resting rooms and refilling of monsters....
and yes, more monster varieties will be uses (And I'll make mini dungeons as well for the "one theme only" dungeons

Again, it looks cool. But speed and more variety and I think you will be golden.

If you PM me an email, I might could send you your pic back defaced with specific room suggestions. Or you could post a pic that had numbers for all of the rooms..

Thanks
While I might take you up on the offer later, not with this one, as it is only a demo

Looks good. I think only a couple of the rooms feel too similar to the others or not distinctive enough (you have 3 1 snake rooms, and 4 ladder only rooms). Maybe add a differet colored door, different colored torch, or different colored floor. A smaller tapestry or painting before the boss room would also be good. Trap on the floor or on a ladder could be fun too.

Took this one last... Yes, a lot more must be added to make it more "alive" and therefore I'm working on making interior objects... in the spoiler below are some of my work so far (with the standard BG)

What do you all think?


IMAGES INSIDE:

► Show Spoiler

[RidcullyJack]

Off-topic a bit, but on dungeon design, so I thought I'd mention it here.
It's pretty cool that Thunt put the slot in the floor for the key to go down into in today's comic way back in February. That's good dungeon-crafting.

[LAYF]

True.. that attention to detail is (among other things) what makes THunt into an impressive storyteller.. and that level of detail is also what I hope this thread can, with time, inspire to.

[thinkslogically]

Looks cool LAYF Why not look at changing the brickwork a little bit too? Can be as simple as a colour-swap, so I'm not talking about anything too onerous! As well as spiders and traps, you could chuck in stuff like mouseholes or small (apparently) non-monsterous beasties (like rabbits or squirrels). You might also want to make your boulders a different colour / layer than the floor and walls (because your players WILL want to pick them up) if they're not already.

Anyway, looks really cool! Looking forward to seeing this run!

[LAYF]

Looks cool LAYF Why not look at changing the brickwork a little bit too? Can be as simple as a colour-swap, so I'm not talking about anything too onerous! As well as spiders and traps, you could chuck in stuff like mouseholes or small (apparently) non-monsterous beasties (like rabbits or squirrels). You might also want to make your boulders a different colour / layer than the floor and walls (because your players WILL want to pick them up) if they're not already.

Anyway, looks really cool! Looking forward to seeing this run!

Thanks
Yea, some color changing might be a good idea... I've already have some wall decorations in the form of wall patterns and mold and such, (hmm, i got a rat hole is that okay? ).. but different brick color (and style) would be a nice subtitle addition to that

I'm also making small animals, both monstrous and natural....

Hmm.. the boulders are the standard wall color since they are from the wall... they can still be moved... I'm not sure I'd like them in a different shade... but I'll try...

and yea.. I look forward to run it too... but its in the far future

[thinkslogically]

That's cool - it wasn't obvious they were separate entities but you've obviously thought of that

[ThroughTheWell]

I like the plants. They can freak players out or get them to try to figure out what benefit they can get from the plant. However, that WILL slow them down.

You need to add a skeleton hanging from the meat hooks, in line with the other hanging meat. Human naturaly. That will really freak them out.

If I were you, I'd avoid 3 position switches and stick to only 2 position swithches. But, if you throw a puzzle at them involving switches, it will slow them down lots. Oh please, please avoid that.

You could stand to have a fireplace.

I'm not sure what is to the left of the web. Which tends to make me think it is too much small detail. You'll be forced to tell them in text what it is which makes the art just a symbolic stand in, and not as obvious as art ought to be IMHO. Reconsider.

[LAYF]

I like the plants. They can freak players out or get them to try to figure out what benefit they can get from the plant. However, that WILL slow them down.

Yea, I know.. that's the hard thing, either I have to let the plants be all insignificant so they quickly learn don't to bother, or deal with them stopping for every single plant...

You need to add a skeleton hanging from the meat hooks, in line with the other hanging meat. Human naturaly. That will really freak them out.

hehe, good idea, might add that.. or or or....A corpse that suddenly turns out to be a zombie that cannot get down to get after them

If I were you, I'd avoid 3 position switches and stick to only 2 position swithches. But, if you throw a puzzle at them involving switches, it will slow them down lots. Oh please, please avoid that.

Yea... I know... puzzles in general slows down, but they also add flavor.. IF I use complex/slow puzzles I'll add clues, so that there is a chance to speed things up.... good roleplay and use of skills can also help revealing information...

You could stand to have a fireplace.

true

I'm not sure what is to the left of the web. Which tends to make me think it is too much small detail. You'll be forced to tell them in text what it is which makes the art just a symbolic stand in, and not as obvious as art ought to be IMHO. Reconsider.

Hmm.. I'm not to happy with it myself, its supposed to be a bookshelf.. but i hope that environment will make it more obvious...

Thanks for the feed back...

[ThroughTheWell]

Stick to a single color per book, varry the heights, but fill the shelf nearly full so that I get the sense of shelves. This may mean making a thinner (less wide) book case. One or 2 books lying down at the end of a shelf is okay, but what you had looked really random and contextless. Establishe the context from what we normaly expect.

[thinkslogically]

I don't think it's a bad thing to have puzzles that slow the players down as long as it doesn't stop them dead in their tracks. An unsolvable puzzle on the only door which will let them move forward is a bad thing, but there's no reason you couldn't also offer a second (but much more hazardous) way around each puzzle if that's likely to be a risk? Personally I think flavour and variety are good things and I prefer to let the players set the pace they want to play at (very obvious in LotMK; pretty obvious in The Island). Hell, if you're going to go to all the effort of drawing an entire populated dungeon, you might as well let your players enjoy it. Then again, I also don't really use hard-and-fast rulesets because I'm pretty bad at predicting how the balance will end up. I prefer to stick with an internally-consistent framework and a few basics instead.

[LAYF]

Hmm.. good ideas...

how do you like this ones instead:

I don't think it's a bad thing to have puzzles that slow the players down as long as it doesn't stop them dead in their tracks. An unsolvable puzzle on the only door which will let them move forward is a bad thing, but there's no reason you couldn't also offer a second (but much more hazardous) way around each puzzle if that's likely to be a risk? Personally I think flavour and variety are good things and I prefer to let the players set the pace they want to play at (very obvious in LotMK; pretty obvious in The Island). Hell, if you're going to go to all the effort of drawing an entire populated dungeon, you might as well let your players enjoy it. Then again, I also don't really use hard-and-fast rulesets because I'm pretty bad at predicting how the balance will end up. I prefer to stick with an internally-consistent framework and a few basics instead.

true, and really good points...
about rule sets.. I like rules in the LSN style.. but.. on the other hand... I also like a good choice of classes..

Hmm.. don't know... might reconsider before I start the game... who knows.... Still lot's of time before the game happens...

[ThroughTheWell]

Those books are better, and at the edge of instant recognition. Avoid some of the obvious cut and pasted duplicate shelves, use green and black, and all your other colors (or at least more than the 3 used). And why do you have that same blue book on it's side in the middle of the shelf!!! Stick it at least at the end as a book end, instead of in the middle. Who does it like that? Arg, my OCD is making me want to straighten up the shelves the right way, and kill the wizard that did it the wrong way.

For a library room I'd want a chair and table. Which if placed right would let you center the lamp too.

[thinkslogically]

Arg, my OCD is making me want to straighten up the shelves the right way, and kill the wizard that did it the wrong way. .

Hahahahaha! You know thanks to this comment I'll never be able to look at a messy pixel-art bookshelf ever again! But I like those bookshelves a lot better too - nice one LAYF.

You can take or leave this, but for classes you could always just have each player start with a single Feat according to their class and then upgrade those skills in a limited way as the game progresses. Something like that can be both secret (so you can adjust the balance behind the scenes or mix things up a little if you have a better idea later) and pretty simple to implement while still giving the players individuality suited to their chosen class.

For example, an assassin might start off with a stealth ability which gives a bonus to back-attacks, could later learn how to make those attacks critical (for which I'd use an additive modifier, not a multiplicative one), and eventually learn to instakill individual enemies that were suitably beneath the PC in skill (e.g. kobolds would die, but not the end boss).

With magic, you could have a system where magic attacks ignores the DEF score but doesn't hit particularly hard (e.g. 1-2 damage only). As the magician progresses the damage could increase or you could give them area effects instead (e.g. hits everyone within half a room -> hits only enemies within half a room). Artefacts and items are then available to you as DM to protect some enemies from modest amounts of magic damage in some way if you need to up the challenge of a particular bad guy.

I think there's loads of scope to implement individuality and classes into a game, but I don't think they have to be hugely complex. Chances are your players will give you plenty of ideas for where they want to take their characters, so leaving a bit of room to adjust your plans will give them more control over how they play and will hopefully make for a better game.

EDIT: Oh! And one other thing I forgot to mention is healing. If you read the LSN / ECR games there's not a lot of love for the healers (tellers) and in The Island, none of the players who ended up being picked wanted the job at all because they didn't want to be the healbot. Spreading limited healing abilities amongst everyone can get round this problem I think and eases the load on one person having to babysit while everyone else runs around adventuring. It's not 'classic' RPG but I think it works better on a forum.