[18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Generic » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:04 am

Velgar wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:29 pm [...]
I'm not even sure all of us are in agreement that Minmax and Goblinslayer are amazingly different characters about this...
I can't recall anyone else but you bringing up Goblinslayer at all. Yes, they are totally different. So?

Imagine this though: The story ends up putting MinMax in a Brassmoon tavern. He is the saviour of the city, has a girl on each arm, and a broken Kin, still in that horrible leash, at his feet.

I. Would. Love. That.

Hope_Caswell wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:24 pm [...]
Generic wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:04 amUnless "fate" has something positive in store for Kin, she really should not be with anyone who does shit like that.
"Fate", as in our author, almost certainly does. And even if she doesn't GET a happy ending, it's absolutely in character for her to SEEK one here, by forgiving the person who thoughtlessly wronged her once, after having freed her from the absolute psychopath who kept her as a sex slave for years.

I am not saying it's out of character for her.However: I would really, really dislike a sweet ending to a story about an abuse victim returning to an abuser.

She doing that, and slowly and horribly being destroyed by it, would be GREAT.
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Hope_Caswell » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:26 am

I object strongly to Minmax being called "an abuser" because he did ONE thing which debatably qualifies as abuse.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Generic » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:23 pm

Hope_Caswell wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:26 am I object strongly to Minmax being called "an abuser" because he did ONE thing which debatably qualifies as abuse.
He did the one thing set up as horrible abuse.
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Velgar » Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:14 pm

Generic wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:04 am Imagine this though: The story ends up putting MinMax in a Brassmoon tavern. He is the saviour of the city, has a girl on each arm, and a broken Kin, still in that horrible leash, at his feet.

I. Would. Love. That.

----

I am not saying it's out of character for her.However: I would really, really dislike a sweet ending to a story about an abuse victim returning to an abuser.

She doing that, and slowly and horribly being destroyed by it, would be GREAT.
This... Actually clears things a whole bunch. And not even in any "bad way". I actually get that. If done well, that could turn into an actually interesting story. HIGHLY controversial, but part of me wouldn't mind it happening in today's climate just for it being a thing then.

But I fear it would be more in line with miseryporn. Just wrecking stuff for wrecking's sake. It takes a great artist to make it into an actual story.

Also Minmax really isn't the character for it. He's just so lawful stupid good with all his faults. He is the hero of the story. Names would probably work well though. He's definitely good too, but he's shown fault lines. Major ones. He was ready to kill an unarmed person who was not even fighting back for pure kill-giggles and had to be stopped by the rest of the cast. He could go down the slippery slope.

Minmax just wouldn't cut it and to me the leash-moment really nailed it. I've tried to find the right way to explain how I see it and not been very good at it, but here goes another:

Like said, he both knew what he was doing and at the same time he had no idea what he was doing. He expressly knew that the leash would make her stop, it would make her listen. And he knew it was the only option he had left in that moment. Any other thing and Kin would still walk away.

So he took that last option and made her stop and listen. He took that power trip that the leash offered him. And when he did it, it scared the living bejeeHerbert out of him. He was almost as shocked of that moment as Kin. Heck, he was barely able to cope and even that was mostly Forgath. When he "lost" even him, the only thing that broke him out of his stupor was when he witnessed his own actions repeated by the goblins.

That kind of guy would just need to take such a road to actually become abusive. Let alone to level that would end up destroying Kin.

Which is really why it's so hard to see how Minmax could be an abuser any more than I'm a thief for once forgetting a box of candy in my pocket (I really thought hard about going back to pay it, but I was something like 10, so it kinda slipped) or a molester for once hugging a person who REALLY didn't want it (they even later said I had managed to touch their breast when reaching for a sneak hug from behind them [I had zero idea they were very conscious about their body and I should have known better to try such in any case, but there we go] which triggered some lovely flashbacks... [yeah, they had very good reasons for not wanting people to touch them...]).

Granted, if you kill someone it's not just "that one time", you are a killer (still might have good reasons or just plain horrible accident), but to me it's just kinda insulting towards people who are actual abuse victims (like Kin) that Minmax would be an abuser. Heck, even Kin thinks otherwise.

But yeah. Got to agree with Generic on that if the situation was different and this had room to develop into the "New Hero of Brassmoon"... It could be interesting.

If not for anything else then for the very reason that we could see an actual abuser instead of getting all worked out over simple idiots.
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Hjerne » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:36 pm

Hope_Caswell wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:24 pm
Just for the record, the term "cripple" (whether it's offensive or not) is generally used to describe the *physically* disabled, not the intellectually "inferior" such as Forrest. I haven't seen the movie
You didn't have to state it because it's very obvious you haven't seen Forest Gump. At the start of the movie he is not only mentally disabled but physically. He has to wear heavy metal cage like braces strapped to the full length of his legs in order to walk. And his walk is very clumsy, like lifting one foot up, laboriously moving moving it forward, and dropping it heavily to the ground. Then some bullies come to beat him up and Jenny yells "Run Forest run!" And he breaks into a clumsy run which becomes less clumsy with each step and then the sheer strength of his leg muscles bursts the straps and the cages fall off his legs as he easily outruns the bullies even though they are on bicycles.

That is what was meant by just telling a cripple to run doesn't mean he can suddenly overcome his disability. Just look up run forest run on youtube to see how stupid and offensive that scene is.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Glemp » Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:34 am

Generic wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:04 am
Velgar wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:29 pm [...]
I'm not even sure all of us are in agreement that Minmax and Goblinslayer are amazingly different characters about this...
I can't recall anyone else but you bringing up Goblinslayer at all. Yes, they are totally different. So?

Imagine this though: The story ends up putting MinMax in a Brassmoon tavern. He is the saviour of the city, has a girl on each arm, and a broken Kin, still in that horrible leash, at his feet.

I. Would. Love. That.
As a tragic, dark ending? Yes, that would be a very...memorable twist, that could work given proper build up. But I think it's very unlikely, especially since the author, despite denying it, seems to have put a lot of themselves into MM - see beating the crap out of Dellyn just as they've said they fantasised doing to RL kidnappers and rapists.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by cbertrand » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:24 am

Generic wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:41 am You seem to think it's a mistake (please correct me if I'm wrong, I hate making assumptions on other people's opinion), I think it's on purpose. I agree to disagree, but you'll not sway me from my opinion that MinMax did that, knowing what he did. What speaks for your intepretation is what is happening right now. This would be easier to digest if MinMax just reached out for ANYTHING to grab and it happened to be the leash.
I’m _hoping_ it is a mistake. ie. An example of poor, inconsistent story telling (Even great artists can have an off day)

By mistake, I mean that she wrote something that doesn’t make sense within the world she created. That she wanted some action that would, rightly, trigger Kin, but that she did not realize the real-world implications the action would have

(or that Elipsis couldn’t think of a way that would not have such real world implications so she said: “My world, my rules. This arch is too important in the story. I’ll have him do something abusive, but it really won’t indicate that he is an abuser. Sure, Minmax is like a naive, immature juvenile who date rapes their companion, but, in the world I have created, I can just assert that he truly would never, ever do something like that again.”)

That is why I keep asking if anybody knows of a blog or some such where Elipsis talks about this.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Hope_Caswell » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:37 pm

The comic does have a blog, but it's updated rarely.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by kirsham » Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:24 am

I've been lurking this forum for years, and I only just now made an account because this thread is making me think I'm taking crazy pills. I'm genuinely confused how anyone could read what MinMax did as abuse.

Intent matters.

From MinMax' perspective, what just happened was a complete, out of the blue reversal in Kin's attitude towards him. Over the past however long, MinMax and Kin had become close. Very close. On this (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/08302013) page they very nearly kissed. On the page just before MinMax grabs her leash (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/10172013), she's just about to ask them to come with her, and in an instant she suddenly questions her trust towards him.

MinMax is obviously confused and upset by this. Now, anyone would be, but MinMax is not very bright, and he knows this. And so, he just want to talk, because he doesn't understand. When she refuses to, he grows desperate. He's confused, and all he wants is to talk to try and convince her not to go. He's in love and just wants her to listen to him. In that desperation, he grabs her leash. Obviously that was wrong and MinMax knows it was wrong the very next instant.

But it's not abuse. Abuse implies cruelty or bad intentions. MinMax did not intend to hurt her. One moment of moral failing in a state of desperation does not make one an abuser. Kin explicitly makes the same point to MinMax: "I don't believe that one moment represents who you are".

To be clear, that doesn't mean Kin is not justified in feeling hurt and betrayed. It also doesn't mean that she's not justified in asking MinMax to leave. I just wanted to make that clear in case anyone would accuse me of victim blaming. But equally, it's entirely her prerogative to forgive MinMax, and her explanation of why she forgives him is completely understandable and completely in her character. She clearly doesn't see MinMax as an abuser, and neither should you.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Velgar » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:45 am

cbertrand wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:24 am Sure, Minmax is like a naive, immature juvenile who date rapes their companion
And a mother who spanks their kid actually sexually molested them, 'cose in completely different context people spank other's bums for pleasure...

He took momenteraly away her free will. An action that in of itself left no harm on her, but triggered her memories of another that used the same action to actually harm her.

For which he was reprimanded, even physically assaulted over (which in context again was quite justified, even if her attack left more lasting damage than his action).

Later she regocnized that the action itself had not caused her harm and the person doing the action ment her no harm in doing the action and decided to pursue more familiar relationship towards him based on that conclusion.

And here you are comparing two different actions of gravely different harm together even when the victim does not do so...

I actually know a person who suffered from sexual abuse from the not-so-parental figure who I could ask if these actions were same.

But I won't.

'Cose not only would it remind them of their suffering and thus cause them stress, but from the talks I've already have had with them, I know they would be simply appaled by the comparison. They would agree that Minmax definitely deserved the hit (they would also offer kick to the groin, but Kin was ill-equipped for that) and they wouldn't have given him second chance (not liking them idiots...)

But they would be insulted that something similar to their suffering was compared to maybe 10s of loss of freedom. They would trade it in an instance.
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Hope_Caswell » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:58 pm

Given how much tail Kin has and what she's been observed to do with it (Scorpion-Kin, Psimax, etc.), to say nothing of its recreation out of uber-material, I'm pretty sure a good solid kick to the Royal Orbs of the Kingdom of Everything That Exists would be a far kinder fate than Kin could manage to inflict with her own lower extremity, if she were in the mood.

Welcome by the way, Kirsham. You're not the only long-time-lurker, recent-commenter who is absolutely baffled by the straws people will grasp at, because for some reason they feel compelled to villify a character who is very firmly portrayed as a flawed hero.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Krulle » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:16 am

cbertrand wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:20 pm
Krulle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:39 am Good, a short story about how both did wrong, and it took distance to see the own errors.
Um . . . What did Kin ever do wrong?
Misinterpreting his actions as malign.
Actionwise, she never made a wrong action, but she overinterpreted his.
Which is well understandable, seeing the history of Kin and Dellyn and the meaning of this leash in that relation.
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by cbertrand » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:26 am

kirsham wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:24 am From MinMax' perspective, what just happened was a complete, out of the blue reversal in Kin's attitude towards him. Over the past however long, MinMax and Kin had become close. Very close. On this (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/08302013) page they very nearly kissed. On the page just before MinMax grabs her leash (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/10172013), she's just about to ask them to come with her, and in an instant she suddenly questions her trust towards him.

. . .

But it's not abuse. Abuse implies cruelty or bad intentions. MinMax did not intend to hurt her.
This story takes place in a physically unrealistic fantasy world where magic leashes can take control of a person, so some leeway in the metaphor is needed. Rape and/or physical abuse is largely about power and control. What Minmax did _was_ cruel.

I hate that this might need stating: “No” actually does mean “No”. People are allowed to change their minds. An adolescent who is confused and dumb shouldn’t be allowed to defend assault by saying: “But they were kissing me and letting me touch them before suddenly getting cold feet and saying ‘No’; I didn’t _mean_ to hurt them.” (Ditto if one person hits the other because “they said they would go steady with me but then wanted to break up.”)

Still, like I said, this is a fantasy world with magical ‘seeing’. Kin could certainly say: “What you did was absolutely inexcusable, but because I can ‘see’ you, I know that what you did was entirely unlike you and you would never do such a thing again and that your love really has become pure, so I can forgive you.” . . . I just wish what she was forgiving was not so egregious and that Elipsis would commment on this directly.
Last edited by cbertrand on Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by cbertrand » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:39 am

Krulle wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:16 am
cbertrand wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:20 pm Um . . . What did Kin ever do wrong?
Misinterpreting his actions as malign.
Actionwise, she never made a wrong action, but she overinterpreted his.
Which is well understandable, seeing the history of Kin and Dellyn and the meaning of this leash in that relation.
Oof, I can only speak for myself, but I totally disagree with you. His actions _were_ malign. IMHO, Kin was totally correct in not just interpreting his action as malign, but in intepretting Minmax as somebody who, under certain circumstances, is capable of such a malign action.

Heck, if Minmax really has grown beyond being somebody who would do that, I would propose that Kin’s accurate interpretation and subsequent reaction are what caused Minmax to grow.

Regardless of the wiggle room we are willing to give Minmax, in terms of how much consideration and thought he gave to his action, I feel rather confident that most people would agree that what Minmax did was a form of assault or, att least, abuse.
Last edited by cbertrand on Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Generic » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:33 am

kirsham wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:24 am I've been lurking this forum for years, and I only just now made an account because this thread is making me think I'm taking crazy pills. I'm genuinely confused how anyone could read what MinMax did as abuse.

Intent matters.

From MinMax' perspective, what just happened was a complete, out of the blue reversal in Kin's attitude towards him. Over the past however long, MinMax and Kin had become close. Very close. On this (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/08302013) page they very nearly kissed. On the page just before MinMax grabs her leash (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/10172013), she's just about to ask them to come with her, and in an instant she suddenly questions her trust towards him.

MinMax is obviously confused and upset by this. Now, anyone would be, but MinMax is not very bright, and he knows this. And so, he just want to talk, because he doesn't understand. When she refuses to, he grows desperate. He's confused, and all he wants is to talk to try and convince her not to go. He's in love and just wants her to listen to him. In that desperation, he grabs her leash. Obviously that was wrong and MinMax knows it was wrong the very next instant.

But it's not abuse. Abuse implies cruelty or bad intentions. MinMax did not intend to hurt her. One moment of moral failing in a state of desperation does not make one an abuser. Kin explicitly makes the same point to MinMax: "I don't believe that one moment represents who you are".

To be clear, that doesn't mean Kin is not justified in feeling hurt and betrayed. It also doesn't mean that she's not justified in asking MinMax to leave. I just wanted to make that clear in case anyone would accuse me of victim blaming. But equally, it's entirely her prerogative to forgive MinMax, and her explanation of why she forgives him is completely understandable and completely in her character. She clearly doesn't see MinMax as an abuser, and neither should you.
The leash is there as a dramatic device. MinMax grabbed it. Abuse happened. We saw the effect it had on Kin.

Once Arthur pulls the sword from the stone, he is the rightful king of England. Because the story is set up that way. You can't start to argue that "well, all that happened is that the sword was removed" (unless you do some reverse trope thing).
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by kirsham » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:35 am

cbertrand wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:26 am
This story takes place in a physically unrealistic fantasy world where magic leashes can take control of a person, so some leeway in the metaphor is needed. Rape and/or physical abuse is largely about power and control. What Minmax did _was_ cruel.

I hate that this might need stating: “No” actually does mean “No”. People are allowed to change their minds. An adolescent who is confused and dumb shouldn’t be allowed to defend assault by saying: “But they were kissing me and letting me touch them before suddenly getting cold feet and saying ‘No’; I didn’t _mean_ to hurt them.” (Ditto if one person hits the other because “they said they would go steady with me but then wanted to break up.”)

Still, like I said, this is a fantasy world with magical ‘seeing’. Kin could certainly say: “What you did was absolutely inexcusable, but because I can ‘see’ you, I know that what you did was entirely unlike you and you would never do such a thing again and that your love really has become pure, so I can forgive you.” . . . I just wish what she was forgiving was not so egregious and that Elipsis would commment on this directly.
First of all, I want to make it very clear that nothing I said implied that Kin and MinMax nearly kissing affected her rights to give or withdraw consent in any way. It's very clear within my post that example was included to give background to MinMax' emotional state in the scene of contention. I'm frankly baffled that you thought my post implied anything of the sort, and I think the fact that you did says a lot about your bias in this discussion.

I don't agree at all that MinMax grabbing the leash is a metaphor for rape. No one has ever raped another person with the motivation MinMax had to grab the leash. You seem to be so fixated on the magical property of the leash that you completely ignored the main point of my post, namely that intent matters. I dedicated a whole paragraph to those two words alone, so it should have been clear that I thought it to be an important point. MinMax' intent is wholly incompatible with a rape/abuse metaphor.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by kirsham » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:42 am

Generic wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:33 am
The leash is there as a dramatic device. MinMax grabbed it. Abuse happened. We saw the effect it had on Kin.

Once Arthur pulls the sword from the stone, he is the rightful king of England. Because the story is set up that way. You can't start to argue that "well, all that happened is that the sword was removed" (unless you do some reverse trope thing).
That's a highly flawed analogy because you frame it as either all MinMax did was grab the leash or it was abuse, which is a false dichotomy. He did grab the leash, that point isn't in contention. He was wrong to do so, that's also not in contention. What is in contention is whether that constitutes abuse, which to me it clearly doesn't for the reasons I explained in my original post. If you have counter-arguments to those points I'd love to hear them, but just stating "abuse happened" isn't very productive.

Side-note, you can't just invoke Kin's immediate reaction in support of your point and discount Kin's later position of forgiving MinMax because, unlike you, she doesn't see him as an abuser.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Krulle » Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:53 pm

I wonder if Minmax's command at Kin in the discussed scene mattered later on in Kin's life. (or will matter later on)
Because he told her to take the leash. ( https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/10272013 )
He may have inadvertently changed the power the leash has on her....
Can't fully explain it, but maybe the powers of the leash see her as the "holder" of the leash (as it was a command she had to obey), and now anyone else cannot "hold" the leash anymore, thus the leash cannot make her do other's commands anymore.
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Generic » Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:50 pm

kirsham wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:42 am
Generic wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:33 am
The leash is there as a dramatic device. MinMax grabbed it. Abuse happened. We saw the effect it had on Kin.

Once Arthur pulls the sword from the stone, he is the rightful king of England. Because the story is set up that way. You can't start to argue that "well, all that happened is that the sword was removed" (unless you do some reverse trope thing).
That's a highly flawed analogy because you frame it as either all MinMax did was grab the leash or it was abuse, which is a false dichotomy. He did grab the leash, that point isn't in contention. He was wrong to do so, that's also not in contention. What is in contention is whether that constitutes abuse, which to me it clearly doesn't for the reasons I explained in my original post. If you have counter-arguments to those points I'd love to hear them, but just stating "abuse happened" isn't very productive.

Side-note, you can't just invoke Kin's immediate reaction in support of your point and discount Kin's later position of forgiving MinMax because, unlike you, she doesn't see him as an abuser.
Of course I can. It's a setup that falls flat since nothing happened to resolve the setup. She just forgave him. Plot resolved.
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by kirsham » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:06 am

Generic wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:50 pm Of course I can. It's a setup that falls flat since nothing happened to resolve the setup. She just forgave him. Plot resolved.
You're just ignoring the points I'm making. You're free to criticise how the plot was resolved, but that's a separate discussion entirely. What you can't do is invoke Kin's point of view in one scene and ignore it in a different scene depending on what's convenient for your position.

For the record, something did happen to resolve the setup: MinMax left when Kin asked him to. Kin explains quite clearly that's why she forgives MinMax.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Generic » Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:29 pm

kirsham wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:06 am
Generic wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:50 pm Of course I can. It's a setup that falls flat since nothing happened to resolve the setup. She just forgave him. Plot resolved.
You're just ignoring the points I'm making. You're free to criticise how the plot was resolved, but that's a separate discussion entirely. What you can't do is invoke Kin's point of view in one scene and ignore it in a different scene depending on what's convenient for your position.

For the record, something did happen to resolve the setup: MinMax left when Kin asked him to. Kin explains quite clearly that's why she forgives MinMax.

Then I'll be glad to read a rundown of your points as I seem to have misread you. I can't even recall putting any weight on Kins point of view at all.

Yes, he left. As then she teleported after him. Nothing happened to resolve anything. Apart from her understanding that they are indeed linked.
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Krulle » Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:07 am

Well, time happened.
She had time to think about the actions and what happened.

Sometimes distance and time are great counselors.

I found it a pity she dit not say "I see you."
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by cbertrand » Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:16 am

kirsham wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:35 am
cbertrand wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:26 am
kirsham wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:24 am From MinMax' perspective, what just happened was a complete, out of the blue reversal in Kin's attitude towards him . . . she's just about to ask them to come with her, and in an instant she suddenly questions her trust towards him.

. . .

But it's not abuse. Abuse implies cruelty or bad intentions. MinMax did not intend to hurt her.
. . .
I hate that this might need stating: “No” actually does mean “No”. People are allowed to change their minds. An adolescent who is confused and dumb shouldn’t be allowed to defend assault by saying: “But they were kissing me and letting me touch them before suddenly getting cold feet and saying ‘No’; I didn’t _mean_ to hurt them.” (Ditto if one person hits the other because “they said they would go steady with me but then wanted to break up.”)
. . .
First of all, I want to make it very clear that nothing I said implied that Kin and MinMax nearly kissing affected her rights to give or withdraw consent in any way. It's very clear within my post that example was included to give background to MinMax' emotional state in the scene of contention. I'm frankly baffled that you thought my post implied anything of the sort, and I think the fact that you did says a lot about your bias in this discussion.

I don't agree at all that MinMax grabbing the leash is a metaphor for rape. No one has ever raped another person with the motivation MinMax had to grab the leash. You seem to be so fixated on the magical property of the leash that you completely ignored the main point of my post, namely that intent matters. I dedicated a whole paragraph to those two words alone, so it should have been clear that I thought it to be an important point. MinMax' intent is wholly incompatible with a rape/abuse metaphor.
I can see an argument for viewing what Minmax did as physical abuse, rather than rape. That is why I have also tried to include "abuse" or "hitting" in my posts.

That being said, I stand by my inference, even if we only keep this at the level of physical abuse. You were giving background on Minmax' emotional state, but one's emotional state does _not_ excuse abuse in a relationship. An adolescent who is confused and dumb shouldn’t be allowed to defend hitting the other because “they said they would go steady with me but then suddenly wanted to break up.”

Separately, I would like to underscore that millions of people have raped others with the motivation Minmax seems to have had for his action, given the order of the panels (looking down, seemingly consciously coming up with the idea to use the leash's magic): Control. On the whole, rape is not primarily a sexual act; it is largely an act of control and domination _through_ sex. The same goes for acts of physical and emotional abuse.

cbertrand
Mutters to Themself
Posts: 32

Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by cbertrand » Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:10 pm

*sigh* I would voice doubt that he kept apologizing just to ease her pain, rather than to gain her forgiveness.

Still, being able to "see" a person does allow for some hand-waving.

Also, "you broke yourself to leave and give me peace" _is_ pretty powerful.

Velgar
Speaks Quietly
Posts: 126

Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Velgar » Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:24 pm

cbertrand wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:10 pm *sigh* I would voice doubt that he kept apologizing just to ease her pain, rather than to gain her forgiveness.
Heck, on this one I do agree with you. I don't think he was, is or ever will be smart enough to think that far ahead. But he definitely knew that he done did goof and he was apologizing for that 'cose when you do something stupid, you apologize and the more stupid you do, the more you apologize and he did done goof something fierce.
~The smallest of pebbles can start an avalanche, but even the greatest of boulders can hit nothing.~

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