Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

[SeeAMoose]

Hello Fellow Goblinites,

Now that the worrying is drawing to a close and Thunt has been found, I think it's about time that we had another conversation about the direction of this forum. In the past we have had open discussions of the rules amongst the members of the community and I think it's time to do so once more. We would also like to get some feedback from all of you on how we're doing, and what we can do better. This thread is meant to allow us to improve our community in a collaborative fashion by soliciting constructive criticism of the rules and our performance. What it is not is an invitation to "bash all mods". If you want to say something and don't think it will come across well you can always pm it to me directly. Unless you say something to the effect of "Go screw yourself", I promise not to hold anything you say against you.

Much of this post will be about our concerns about problems we have run into moderating. This is because we feel it is only fair to tell you what we are worried about and why we had to be more strict over the past few weeks. Please don't be intimidated by that taking up so much of the post, this thread is just as much about your concerns as it is ours. This thread is not meant to put down anyone or discourage people from posting, and if you disagree with anything one of us says, I encourage you to speak up or pm me.

There are specific reasons we want to do this now, and much of it stems from the craziness that has transpired over the last month or so. I want to preface this by saying that most of you were awesome and supportive through everything, and for that we really do thank you because that may have made the difference in keeping us from going completely insane. However, we do have some concerns about the way some users have been acting and the general lack of respect towards moderators at times. We first started planning this post about two weeks ago in the Update Freeze thread after we reached a point where both myself and Wolfie had to step in because a number of users were completely disregarding all of the other mods involved. Some of the mods feel that they are ignored when they tell people to stop doing something and that there are users who only respect the admins. Having reviewed the thread, they seem to be right, and that needs to change.

I hate that I have to say all of this because I want everyone on the mod team to feel like they're a part of the community and I want the community as a whole to regard us as such. That said, Wolfie and I should not need to step in because people won't listen to the other moderators. Those moderators are volunteering and were picked for the job for a reason. When a moderator over a particular forum tells you to stop doing something in that forum, you need to listen to them. Pay attention to what they tell you and don't talk back to them. If you feel that what they are asking is unreasonable you can contact Wolfie or myself and we will review the matter, but you still need to listen to them.

Some of the mods have also suggested that certain users walk all over them because we tend to be lenient. We take time and give users chances because Thunt has always favored leniency. However, if being lenient causes certain users to stop taking us seriously then we may have to revisit our policy and start giving official warnings, putting people on probation where their posts have to be approved and giving out temporary bans more readily. It's definitely something I would rather avoid, but we may need to consider this as an option and we want to know what you all think. Aside from the obvious problem of Thunt's absence can any of you think of anything at the route of these problems? Is there anything we can do to ensure that when we need people to listen they will? (at least most of the time).

I'm sorry I had to lead with something so negative, because again most of you were nothing short of spectacular... but these are very real concerns we have that we want to address in a manner almost everyone can agree to. Everything after this point is about you though, your concerns and suggestions. We need you to tell us what we can do to make this a better community, one that is welcoming and where people are treated respectfully. A place people want to come to just to hang out and chat.

Now
On to where you can help us, we want your input. We'll start with the rules. Is there anything we should add to the rules? Something we should remove? Please tell us your ideas and we will take them into consideration as we revise the forum rules. While this is not a democracy, we do believe community involvement in developing the standards we adhere to. To be clear, the moderation team has final say over what ends up going into the forum rules, but we will take any suggestions you make seriously.

Last but certainly not least, we would like critical feedback on our management of the forum in general. What are we doing well? What can we do better? What do you think we've royally screwed up? Do we need to be more strict? Less strict? Should we feed unruly forumites to the dragons? More often than we do already... We really do want to know what you think.

We do ask that you keep in mind that all of the moderators are volunteers and we're only human, but if we are doing something wrong we want to know about it. We are here volunteering because we love the community that has grown up around the comic, but at the end of the day we're still just fans. Also, if you don't feel comfortable posting a criticism here, you can always pm it to myself or Wolfie and we will keep your message between the two of us.

Sincerely,
Moose and the Moderation Team

P.S. If people don't participate, I might have the ability to lock the entire forum except for this thead. Not that I'd ever consider doing anything like that

[SculptsAir]

After reading the rules, i must say, they are well written and fair.
About what happened, i believe there is no preparing for the usual or less usual abnormality.
Respect is something you moderators deserve, but can not enforce, or it becomes fear.
The only thing handled badly about this situation that i can spot, is a lack of information. After Thunt did his tweeting, it seemed the storm died down somewhat. But i can not blame the forum moderators or anyone else for this, it is just that situations like this are best avoided.

[Krulle]

I love how this forum runs, and even in this crisis the Mod-team was far better that 'Net average!

There have been some wrong steps here and there, on all sides, but that is also due to the nature of written posts.
You write something, also thinking of implied things, while others read your post and read other implied things into it....

In such a crisis it's not that wrong to react a bit stronger, and especially earlier. You (as a team) did very well.

In total I would not change much, if anything at all.
The normal update threads get lost after a week or so, so running slightly off-topic on page 6/7 of the thread is no problem.

In this specific case, many threads had to survive for 5 weeks!
A lot of the users have read and commented on all sides, and therefore found it difficult to remain on topic... That's the time you need to step in.
Maybe next time create specific threads for certain things earlier, e.g. "unsollicited advice", "get a grip, this is unprofessional", etc...
And explain in the "Thunt MIA" thread, first post, what thread subscriptions are and how they can be used to avoid coming here every few days...

All in all: Well done and thanks!

[Guus]

Like I said in the random chatter forum (plus some extra points):

First off, I think you guys and gals of the mod team are doing a great job. Active participation in the community is one of the most important things to do for a mod if you ask me, and that seems to be exactly what you are doing.

I of course came in during the crisis, which meant I was part of heated discussions from the start, and not always on the defensive side of the discussion. I was able to state my opinions, had them rejected by some and supported by others, without feeling like my point of view was being disrespected. I do however feel that at some points a number of people made critical points about THunt that were reasonable, which got shot down because the posts seemingly came off like disrespect, when in my opinion they were not being disrespectful but simply stating their opinion. So some mods seemed to react a bit too defensive and that seemed to result in conflict that could've been handled better. I feel like this is part of being human, it was a topic that was close to everyone's heart and it caused some folks to react with more emotional response, which is why I chose at some point to let most of the discussion go past me.

I did feel like I were able to say more than others at some point, which seemed a bit unfair. At a certain point I called the behaviour of people continuously bashing the mods childish, because that was how I felt they were reacting. I half expected a comment from one of the mods that it was a disrespectful comment, which it kind of was, although I did really feel that way. It was a tired, snarky comment, which I wouldn't have made if I had been awake for less than twenty minutes. I feel that if that comment was made by one of the people criticizing the mods, they would've been called out. Maybe I'm wrong at that point, but I did feel a bit unfair.

I could probably think of a few more situations were I felt that the critical part of the posters were handled more rough than the defensive part of the fans, but that would mean I have to search the threads and that would cost me quote some time, and I think my one example paints the picture fairly well.

I think the rules are fair and promote respect very well, one of the most important things for a forum to be succesful.

To conclude: at some times it felt like not everyone got the same kind of judgment on their posts. However, those were incidents and in general I think the mods are doing a great job. Mistakes (or my perception of when a mod makes a mistake) are going to be made and I feel like that the amount of mistakes were minimal in respect to the heated subjects. Thus: keep up the good work!

[xoticus]

It seems unfair to me to lock threads and otherwise shut people down for stating their opinion. There are a lot of people that seem very upset/frustrated about the situation surrounding Thunt and the comic, but are not being heard. Threads are being locked simply for complaining or giving advice. I think this is uncalled for and that the mods should back off. Just because the mods support Thunt and want to be seen as supportive does not mean they are the only ones with a valid viewpoint.

[BadgeAddict]

I don't mean to speak out of line...but perhaps any Thunt discussions should be had in the Controversy area. I can understand the issue if such posts complaints or not are done in a ....very public location (common discussion forums).

As for the Power-Hungry Mods who have no oversight (aka - who watches the watchers), do be so kind to remember the example of the Standford Prison Experiment.

I'm going away now, please don't punish me Mod overlords.

[Ulalume]

I think the mods did a great job in the past few weeks, especially with the "Thunt Tweets" thread, considering how volatile that situation became. I had actually taken a couple days off from checking the forums, and when I got back, I was very glad I did. Certain sections were overwhelming just to skim through, much less to read on a daily basis.

However, I do have two suggestions. It's up to you to decide how applicable and/or possible they are.

1) Is there any way to set up the forum so that when a user registers, they are AUTOMATICALLY taken to the rules page? It's been a while since I registered, so I'm not sure if this is already in effect. A lot of the more controversial posts, however, seemed to be due to an ignorance of the rules. If I recall correctly, one particular person even mocked the rules when he/she was reminded of them. If a person is automatically directed there, however, he/she cannot claim ignorance as an excuse. They have been given the opportunity to view the rules, and have either ignored the opportunity or ignored the rules themselves. Neither should be tolerated, IMO.

2) I do believe that if two or three people are monopolizing the thread with a back and forth argument, the mods should warn all participants of said argument to take it to a PM. Particularly if the argument starts to get off-topic and/or insulting. I saw one example of this in the Tweets thread, and I was glad to see it.

Perhaps a rule could be made for those specific types of situations. Something like "If the mods believe that two forumites are hogging a thread, we will respectfully ask them to take the conversation to a PM after (x number) of posts on the same argument from each party. If the request is ignored by either party, then that party will be temporarily locked from the thread."

Come to think of it, this could probably be added as an addendum to the "No trolling" rule. I don't know how you guys will feel about doing this, but I do think that it will make the forum a little more enjoyable for those who don't want to participate in said arguments.

[Xavier78]

I don't mean to speak out of line...but perhaps any Thunt discussions should be had in the Controversy area. I can understand the issue if such posts complaints or not are done in a ....very public location (common discussion forums).

As for the Power-Hungry Mods who have no oversight (aka - who watches the watchers), do be so kind to remember the example of the Standford Prison Experiment.

I'm going away now, please don't punish me Mod overlords.

I agree with you. Let people vent, but keep it where it should have been the entire time. Everyone reacts to things differently, not everyone will handle it smoothly. I admit I may have been out of line a few times and for that I apologize. I never intended to tick anyone off and will be much more sympathetic in the future.

Also, I want to point out that I seen a Mod encourage bashing of a person. Said Mod edited the post very quickly to be about something entirely different. I have no idea how many people seen it, I'm sure I'm not the only one. That is something I found to be the most offensive out of the whole situation. If the "bosses" can't regulate what they say, how can you expect everyone else?

[stevedj]

Those moderators are volunteering and were picked for the job for a reason. When a moderator over a particular forum tells you to stop doing something in that forum, you need to listen to them. Pay attention to what they tell you and don't talk back to them. If you feel that what they are asking is unreasonable you can contact Wolfie or myself and we will review the matter, but you still need to listen to them.

This little piece had something that I wasn't aware of - and perhaps others too? (It shouldn't have ever applied/happened to me - but it is still something I should have known, or if I did read it once in some rules entries, I have long forgotten)

That is ... Who are the Mods?

It was news to me to read in that paragraph above that "Wolfie" and "SeeAMoose" are apparently the Top Mods, with other supporting Mods below them (in the grand hierarchy of Mods).

Is there some way that information could be more clear? You know, like a traditional Org Chart?

[Guus]

There is a legend at the bottom of the index page that explains the mod colors, I think that's clear enough. You might disagree, but I'd rather not start a discussion here so let's call it an agreement to disagree if you think I'm wrong?

[LAYF]

Is there some way that information could be more clear? You know, like a traditional Org Chart?

well, I don't know If it can be made more clear... but:

http://goblinsforum.com/memberlist.php? ... &sk=m&sd=d is the full list... and here is a current screen dumb:


hope that helps a little.

[SculptsAir]

That is ... Who are the Mods?

Is there some way that information could be more clear? You know, like a traditional Org Chart?

Yes. One way to create more respect for the mods would be to humanize them.
A sticky in each forum where the local mods tell a bit about themselves?
A single page with a bio for each moderator?

[Guus]

Well, there is the "meet the mods" thread, which could be stickied if you ask me but seems like a good enough way to make themselves known.

http://www.goblinsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1007

[SeeAMoose]

It's funny you should mention that because we are actually working on a "Meet the mods" thread

[thinkslogically]

I disagree with the comments about moving 'Thunt discussions' to the Controversy! section, because it's not that controversial a topic and it IS directly related to the comic. The discussion section seems like the first place a new member would go for information and to vent their spleen if required.

That said, first off I'd like to say thanks to the mods for dealing with all this over the last few weeks. It's obviously been tough!

I think in future it may be useful to add a note to the sticky 'what's going on' posts explaining that temporary rules are being enforced as appropriate. So as well as explaining what was known about THunt's situation, you could also have posted a note up-front explaining that until further information was forthcoming, the mods would be cracking down on posts speculating on what was going on because of potential legal issues (this was pre-update obviously), and that they'd be taking a harder line with obviously inflammatory posts (straight to an official warning for trolls) or posts that broke those specific rules (e.g. by deleting anything speculative). Once we found out the problem, I think it's right to allow an unsolicited advice thread.

Beyond speculation however, I feel like dissenting opinions should very much be allowed. Posting just to complain about the lack of information may be viewed as obnoxious on one hand, but is also I think what a lot of people needed to do. "Thunt-bashing" may not sit well with the mods, but at the same time, I don't know if we really need to police the opinions of people who are upset with him for whatever reason, providing those reasons don't slip into ad hominem attacks and remain comic-related.

There were a couple of decisions made that I thought were possibly over-harsh (for example people who IMO were posting from a lack of knowledge rather than malicious intent) but that's just a personal opinion and YMMV

By and large I think things were handled pretty well. I like our easy-going forum!

[BadgeAddict]

I very much agree Thinks, I only meant the move to thing, though i honestly have no clue to the goings on...since i dwell solely within the games section.

That being said: The less rules the better in my opinion as rules give "Trolls" ideas on what is inappropriate behavior.

Example: Placing "Do not Fish" signs at lakeside restaurants on their outside patios tend to encourage people to fish, where the lack of said sign doesn't even give the people the idea in the first place.

I know that the internet does not contain only mature adults and neither does life, however, typically, the more rules you make will only give us longer-term residents a large feeling of mistrust by the overseers.

[thinkslogically]

Definitely Badge, and that's one other reason why I think keeping potential trolls clear of Controversy would be a good idea. There are a lot of sensitive topics in there where someone trollishly minded could cause a fair bit of upset. Not that they coudln't do that now of course, but they wouldn't have much of an audience!

[Chelsa121]

A few ideas, (precisely two) as I am probably only passing through, and will forget about this renewed interest in the forums soon enough...

On "Thunt-bashing"...

Is he not a real live person and member of this community as well, or does he somehow deserve less respect and fair treatment than every other forum member when people directly insult him?

I'm not talking being critical of his work, or even his update schedule, I'm talking about how people will straight up call him (his person, his very being) things like unprofessional, (which I feel is untrue, inaccurate due to definitions and the nature of his job -the comic is free, please stop acting like you're owed something, if my kid were acting like that over anything I'd given her that wasn't necessary to survival, I'd take it away forever) and it is just plain rudeness, pure and simple.

What I'm saying is, if people were straight up treating me the way some of the self-proclaimed "critics" are treating Thunt, I would fully expect them to be banned. Why isn't this happening?

So, I'd put in some sort of "be constructive, not destructive" rule when it comes to Thunt. And if they're not adding anything, if all they are doing is complaining, why, WHY do they deserve to be heard?

On the mods in general...

All of you who are not Wolfie and See_A_Moose could maybe stand to speak (well, write) with a little more authority. I know it isn't easy, (I mod on Reddit) but the fact is, you are in a leadership role, voluntary or not. You need to start telling people what to do, because if you ask people to do something they're supposed to do, they'll think it's optional. A lot of you seem to be asking when telling is entirely more appropriate. I get that asking feels friendlier, I get you are just volunteers, but unless you command respect, you'll probably just continue not to get any, no matter what changes are made.

Also, I can't tell that any of you are special based on the current board styles. Global mods and admin are sorta visible if you're really looking for distinction, (I usually don't really look, maybe if you all had something in your sig to ID you like Moose does) but the rest of you get ignored as more detritus under your avatar.

I'm sorry, I love you all, I know you're all working very hard and trying to please everyone, but I think that's part of the problem.

[Guus]

Just putting this out there, there is a difference between calling someone unprofessional and calling a specific act of someone unprofessional.
I felt I needed to attract attention to this fact because it seemed to cause a lot of misunderstanding the last few weeks.
Judging a person's behaviour does not automatically mean that that person's entire character is being judged and a lot of people called THunt out on his behaviour, not on his character. Which resulted in people responding in defending THunt as a person, not his current behaviour. Calling someone unrespectful is often offensive, calling someone's behaviour unprofessional in a certain circumstance is often not disrespectful. This is one of the aspects I feel the mods (and many forumites) fell short, the fact that people criticized THunt on his current behaviour, not on him as a human being. Although his reason in my opinion is a very good one, that doesn't take away the fact that his behaviour was something that could be reasonably questioned. Excused, but still questioned. It's how interaction works, and it is an important part of learning. Criticism on your behaviour is good, even if the reason for your behaviour is a good one. I feel like some people took it too far, but I feel like you shouldn't ignore criticism as well and respect criticism when it's justified. Since we didn't know the complete situation, "THunt must have his reasons and should be excused" was as much a valid conclusion as "I feel THunt's behaviour is unprofessional".
This distinction is very important to me, and I think the mods could improve on that. That doesn't take away the fact that the mods here are some of the best I've seen so far, mainly because they are reasonable and try their best to be friendly.

[SeeAMoose]

Well Chelsa part of that is my fault. When Thunt first made me a moderator he emphasized that he wanted me to be as lenient as possible and I have carried that over to how I instruct the mods. You are right though that we tend to ask first, but you may have a point and perhaps we should get to the point more directly. If my wonderful team of mods would care to weigh in it would be much appreciated.

Again thank you all for participating.

[Chelsa121]

Guus:

I'm talking about the ones who are judging his character. There is actually a pretty big difference between "Not posting an update is unprofessional." (not as bad, behavior, not person) and "Thunt is unprofessional because he didn't post an update." (Pretty damn bad, person bashing, for one, and faulty logic, which I abhor, even as an example) And a lot of people were crossing that line. It's easy to call it semantics, but the thing is, semantics are a pretty large part of communication, and people should absolutely be accountable for what they say and how they say it. I'm not suggesting people get banned the minute they slip up, but that the difference is explained, the post is edited to more accurately explain the spirit of the message, and warnings are given, with clear and consistent consequences for repeatedly and consistently making the "mistake".

Moose:

I feel like maybe I wasn't clear... It's not that I think the mods are too lenient. It's that I think the approach they're taking is inconsistent and ineffective (I am so sorry you guys, I know you are trying, I hate to be so critical)... If anything, the "feel" of it is that you get a bunch of mod jr's coming in and asking us more, ahem, forceful, characters to please please please settle down and follow the rule, right up until you or Wolfie steps in and are all like, "Rawr, shut up this convo right now." ... I wonder if I'm expressing myself correctly, but it's like going from being spattered with lukewarm water (you don't even notice) to having a pot of boiling water dumped over your head.

What I mean is that... I do mod elsewhere. In a year of modding a forum populated by 7000 people (of temperamental persuasions, I might add, with only myself and one other mod being completely active) I have had to ban exactly one person. I've instructed about five of them to edit their posts. I've removed maybe ten posts. This I consider lenient. I wouldn't have the luxury of being that lenient on that forum if I did not occasionally lay down the law and say "If you continue breaking this rule, it will have this consequence." ...

And, again, I hate to be this harsh, but... If I were running to the forum "admin" (really just higher ranking mods by length of time spent modding) every time I needed to make a decision to make sure that decision was okay (and half the time you get a different opinion from each different mod) nobody would take me seriously. Again, I hope I'm not being too frank or insulting, but the thing is, when you and Wolfie step in, not only does it give the unconscious impression that you two are the only ones with the authority to make those judgement calls (so why bother having other mods)... It also gives the impression that you lack confidence in the ability of those mods yourselves. And, if I may suggest something to fix that one, sure, have them consult with you guys privately* if they're not sure, but ultimately make them lay down the law in the thread and carry out any consequences, so that the admin babysitting isn't so visible. It really makes you guys look like micromanagers, and I know you're not like that.

*Edit: I accidentally a word.

[Guus]

I know you were and I should've clarified that, I'm sorry. I do feel like there were some slip-ups in that respect over the past few weeks though. On the rest of your points I completely agree with you. I love the leniant atmosphere between mods and the rest, but some tough love or even flat out following through on certain rules and warnings are often necessary.

[Arch Lich Burns]

I admit I don't really look around discussion much anymore because of all the shenanigans, and I would much rather hang around Games or Controversy. Games is pretty chill most of the time, I only had to step in a few times because somebody was putting spoilers in the random thread or split/merge threads. I have deleted a few posts, mostly because of accidental double/triple posting of the same text or spam. I think I only brought out my mod voice only once in games, I think because of someone posting spoilers.

I do try to help out in controversy from time to time if it seems like it needs it, and nobody else got to the issue before me (and if I am not busy).


I think part of the problem is that people don't respect the other mods in goblin discussions, and we had to fall back on the admins to set things strait because nobody would listen to them...

[thinkslogically]

Completely agree with guus & chelsea (they said what I meant by "no ad hominem attacks" if that wasn't clear before), though from a rules standpoint you might have a hard time enforcing such a fine line (I know there are a lot of non-native english speakers here for example).

I think maybe just ensuring all warnings made as in a mod capacity (even if they're just minor ones) are made in the 'mod voice' would go a long way to making people realise that it's definitely a warning and not just another forumite telling them to behave.

[SeeAMoose]

. It really makes you guys look like micromanagers, and I know you're not like that.

That's actually something we need to work on because users will run to me claiming abuse and then I get to figure out what to do with it. I am micromanaging, partially because I still view myself at least partly as a moderator and partly because I'm trying too hard to live up to a standard of leniency and it's definitely making life harder on the other mods. The question is how to let people contact the admins with concerns without undercutting the authority of the moderators. If anyone has any ideas about this I'm all ears.