December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

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thesilence
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by thesilence » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:56 am

Talos wrote:Why not "her"? Because that's how the English language works. Any attempt to say otherwise is liberal language-policing and attempting to control how one speaks in the name of a radical left-wing agenda worthy of Big Brother.
stares slack-jawed, realizing he need say nothing this time

Well almost nothing.
Talos wrote:Like trying to sneak poison inside candy. Yes, I know I'm exaggerating, but you get the point.
More properly "drugs" than "poisons". Nobody is going to die from being constantly pronoun-policed, but they might have their personality altered against their will by an external influence imposed upon them by outside forces. We do not think it's entirely inappropriate to get uptight about that sort of thing, even in such a trivial case. "As above, so below" and all that.
ÔÇ£I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.ÔÇØ --Sam Houston

nikohl
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by nikohl » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:44 am

Restomak wrote:Amazing. First, we can't stop talking about the "sex curse" and now we're seriously arguing about a pronoun?

I'm done with the forums for a while.
Nobody's arguing. One guy got particularly annoyed about the in-comic throwaway comment "why not her?", several people made jokes about his reaction as their way of showing they disagreed with him. I asked that if it ended up as an actual debate about pronouns and language evolution it went to Controversy rather than clogging up the comic discussion thread. I don't see an argument?

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Krulle
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Krulle » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:02 am

Restomak wrote:I'm done with the forums for a while.
Then help changing the subject:

Can the Axe/Sword of Racism also convert into a Crossbow of Racism, or an other ranged weapon?
Will it still grant the same bonuses, or do the bonuses change with form?

Why (and how) did Ward find out, although Forgath likely already looked at the stats for this equipment?



Is this the gayest thing that has ever happened to Forgath?
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BlueAmaranth
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by BlueAmaranth » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:14 am

I always get a kick out of how stylistic conventions suddenly become deeply important to the integrity of the language as soon as someone points out there miiiiiight be something a little bit sexist about them. I never see people getting up in arms about "Big Brother made us stop capitalizing all the common nouns!" or "I can't believe these radical ideologues got rid of 'thou!'" But now people are shifting away from "default he," and unlike all the other aspects of language, which are of course mutable, this one is just "how it works." I'm still free to use it as much as my heart desires, but now people might think I'm a jerk when I do. This is probably oppression, and it's definitely a sinister left-wing conspiracy to hijack control of Grammar HQ or whatever.

Anyway. The comic. Maybe Ward could sense the weapon's shapeshifting magic since Kliks themselves are "basically made of shapeshifting magic"? But if Kliks can sense shapeshifting magic, why would the other one eat the sword? I still think Ward is lying, but if this really did happen, it raises the possibility that the other Klik did this on purpose to gain power.

Also, real-world political stuff aside, I actually do think assigning gender pronouns to the genderless Kliks is unnecessary. "Why not her" is a step in the right direction of not automatically treating genderless beings as male, but an even better step would be treating genderless beings as...you know, genderless. The Kliks can't state their preferences, if they have any--so any pronouns the party applies to them are purely for the party's convenience. I really wish we had a third-person-singular gender-neutral pronoun for people, because "it" is dehumanizing and although I personally tend to use the singular "they," it can get confusing if you're rapidly switching back and forth between referring to a genderless/ambiguously-gendered individual and a group.

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thinkslogically
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by thinkslogically » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:36 am

It's especially weird since it's Ward that uses the gendered pronoun in the first place. What's wrong with "it"? Anyway, whatever.

It does seem weird that the klik that ate the racist sword hilt wasn't aware that it was holding a shapeshifting item given that the consequences are so horrible for its species (and the world). Since the klik ate the shapeshifting weapon without a second thought, this seems like the sort of accident that must happen relatively frequently (based on the fact that this seems to be a world with a high number of magical items, and the kliks live within a few days walk of Brassmoon city). This in turn begs the question of why there aren't more demi-god kliks running around taking over the world, and why no-one seems to know anything about them (except Biscuit).

...That's assuming Ward is telling the truth and isn't just dicking everyone around of course :)

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by 0z79 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:00 am

Talos wrote:
RocketScientist wrote:Goddamnit, I hate it when I'm sailing along through life on Easy Mode, and somebody comes along with a Radical Pronoun!! Image :fume:
I don't like it when people try to slip in propaganda into comedy. Like trying to sneak poison inside candy. Yes, I know I'm exaggerating, but you get the point. Keep gender pronoun ideological politics out of it.

Or you could say that it is people like me who insist on keeping it "him" when the subject in question has no gender or has an unknown one. This is why BB-8 is called by male pronouns. Even looks a bit like the Kliks, come to think of it. "It" might work too, in some cases.
A few months ago, there was a big voting tournament for the best webcomic; during that, I heard much about how certain members of the Goblins community were less than civil about the whole thing. The community I frequent is very nice, very accepting and friendly, so they were shocked at such a thing happening over a silly contest.

Did you, by any chance, participate in all that? I'm just asking because you seem awfully *concerned* about this stuff.....

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by nikohl » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:09 am

If you read the threads back around that time, every regular forumite here was pretty freaked out by how that contest ended up going. I don't speak for everyone of course, but a popular opinion was that a bunch of trolls took the opportunity to cause trouble under the banner of both comics. So please don't tar our whole community with a single brush like that... and in the same vein don't cast aspersions about Talos either, even if you do disagree with his views on pronouns or his level of 'concern' about them. It's kinda rude and pretty unfair.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by 0z79 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:20 am

nikohl wrote:If you read the threads back around that time, every regular forumite here was pretty freaked out by how that contest ended up going. I don't speak for everyone of course, but a popular opinion was that a bunch of trolls took the opportunity to cause trouble under the banner of both comics. So please don't tar our whole community with a single brush like that... and in the same vein don't cast aspersions about Talos either, even if you do disagree with his views on pronouns or his level of 'concern' about them. It's kinda rude and pretty unfair.
Ahh... Allrighty then. The only place I go, besides super-Niceville-aka-SSSS is a debate forum where everyone has strongly held opinions and a lot of time on their hands.. ironically, in that setting I'm usually the one going "Hey peeps.. maybe let's just live and let live, huh?" Which is usually met with "Settle down friend, j/k! (genuine agreement followed by piss-taking argument).

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by YardMeat » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:58 am

Talos wrote:
spiderwrangler wrote:
Talos wrote:Why not "her"? Because that's how the English language works. Any attempt to say otherwise is liberal language-policing and attempting to control how one speaks in the name of a radical left-wing agenda worthy of Big Brother.
They don't speak English, they speak Common, which has been translated to English for your reading pleasure. Nor do they exist in 'Murica or any other Earthly equivalent, so cultural and language norms very well could be different.
You know as well as I do that that is just an attempt to handwave away the truth of the matter. No matter what " translation " it is, the fact remains that a language, or a translation, still has to obey rules. Trying to warp the public's speech patterns in the name of anything is still wrong. "Equality" is no excuse, any more than "safety" is.
I make my living as a copy editor, and I'm sorry, but you are wrong. There is no universal rule mandating that a gender neutral singular personal pronoun must take the form of "he." It is purely a matter of style, and nearly every style guide I've worked with advises against it. Strunk and White is the only exception that comes to mind. Chicago and APA both advise against it for sure, but I'm not sure about MLA.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Sessine » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:40 pm

thinkslogically wrote:It's especially weird since it's Ward that uses the gendered pronoun in the first place. What's wrong with "it"? Anyway, whatever.

It does seem weird that the klik that ate the racist sword hilt wasn't aware that it was holding a shapeshifting item given that the consequences are so horrible for its species (and the world). Since the klik ate the shapeshifting weapon without a second thought, this seems like the sort of accident that must happen relatively frequently (based on the fact that this seems to be a world with a high number of magical items, and the kliks live within a few days walk of Brassmoon city). This in turn begs the question of why there aren't more demi-god kliks running around taking over the world, and why no-one seems to know anything about them (except Biscuit).

...That's assuming Ward is telling the truth and isn't just dicking everyone around of course :)
Good point!

"Dicking everyone around" seems like the sort of thing Ward does automatically every moment of every day whenever the opportunity arises. If he is by any chance telling the truth, it is probably not the whole truth. So this opens up the field for speculating what might have actually happened.

We're going to have a good while to play with this -- unless Thunt happens to settle the matter with a comment outside the comic. He's said that after this page the focus is going to shift to the GAP. So... what could have actually happened?

We do know that Kliks vary widely in maturity. There are many Klik babies and youngsters floating around in this valley, and then there are those wiser, more powerful merged multi-Klik beings. It may be that normally the younger ones are not allowed out of this supposedly safe magic-item-free region until they've learned to detect magic that would be dangerous.

* The first Klik we met, the one who bonded with Dies, had been captured and carried away. It had not received its full education; we don't know how old it was, but it was not very experienced. It might have spent a lot of time in captivity. (No need to expand here on how badly those good intentions went wrong.)

* Ward, before it ate and merged with the cursed sword (thereby acquiring speech and a negative charisma stat), could not have been very old, either. Bowst brought the sword into the valley; Ward gobbled it up. NOW it is able to tell things about a magic item's properties, but that may be a direct result of its own unfortunate experience.

* The acquisition of characteristics from items eaten may not be confined to magic alone. Forgath's armour and shield weren't magic, but they were still finely crafted dwarven workmanship and had great sentimental value to Forgath. Now Salt, who ate the most, seems to be curiously inclined to hang about near Forgath. This isn't proof of anything, but it's interesting.

* If Ward is telling the truth, in whole or in part (a very big if), dropping major magic items into the Valley of the Kliks is a really, really bad idea. It's a good thing there are hardly ever battles to the death on that bridge up there! Suppose Forgath had won his fight with Kore and had managed to get the Dragon's Maw gate open again to join Minmax and the GAP? The Axe of Racism would still have fallen, would still have been gobbled up, There'd still be a terrible, warped Klik baby who'd have to be tracked down and killed for the safety of the world -- we just wouldn't know about it.

...or worse. Suppose it was cursed Kore who had fallen from the bridge and been healed. Suppose his curse is built into something he's carrying, and a Klik ate it.

Yeah, this could have gone a lot worse.
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thinkslogically
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by thinkslogically » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:18 pm

...suppose the axe of prissan was dropped...
Last edited by thinkslogically on Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by RocketScientist » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:29 pm

YardMeat wrote: Strunk and White is the only exception that comes to mind.
You know, I rethought my opinion of Strunk and White when I read Stuart Little as an adult. That book is a hot mess. How on earth did E. B. White become known as an expert at anything if his most famous work is so painful to read?

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Lurks Silently » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:48 pm

RocketScientist wrote:
YardMeat wrote: Strunk and White is the only exception that comes to mind.
You know, I rethought my opinion of Strunk and White when I read Stuart Little as an adult. That book is a hot mess. How on earth did E. B. White become known as an expert at anything if his most famous work is so painful to read?
I would contend that "Charlotte's Web" is more famous than "Stuart Little."

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Hjerne » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:52 pm

I would just like to point out that Forgath's gauntlet is also shape shifting magic.

Oh, and according to the studio BB-8 is female so there goes that argument.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by RocketScientist » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:08 pm

Lurks Silently wrote:I would contend that "Charlotte's Web" is more famous than "Stuart Little."
OK, fair. The spider got a movie first, too. I haven't read that as an adult, though, so I can't comment on its technical merits.

BB-8 tells me her real name is Sheila, and she would like everyone to respect her life choices.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Talos » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:03 pm

Hjerne wrote:I would just like to point out that Forgath's gauntlet is also shape shifting magic.

Oh, and according to the studio BB-8 is female so there goes that argument.
Actually, no. BB-8 is male. And someone else posted that quote here, so I will reply to it here, not in controversy.

From the article: "We always imagined BB-8 as being quite manipulative. I think he knows heÔÇÖs cute. He knows that he can win people over. And he uses that the way children do, to get his own way. In this film, he has a very important mission to accomplish, and so he uses his personality [to his advantage]." (Emphasis mine.)

http://www.slashfilm.com/bb-8-gender/ "Confirmed: BB-8 Is a Boy"

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by BlueAmaranth » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:11 pm

Yes, of course that was the critical point to address here, while ignoring all of the other ones. Oh no, this one robot from a movie identifies as a guy, clearly nothing else needs to be said. Sure, an actual copy-editor straight up explained that the trend of using default male pronouns is neither a hard rule of English grammar nor even recommended by most style guides, but, you know, this robot's a guy, so...

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Talos » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:28 pm

BlueAmaranth wrote:Yes, of course that was the critical point to address here, while ignoring all of the other ones. Oh no, this one robot from a movie identifies as a guy, clearly nothing else needs to be said. Sure, an actual copy-editor straight up explained that the trend of using default male pronouns is neither a hard rule of English grammar nor even recommended by most style guides, but, you know, this robot's a guy, so...
If I address the other points, I will do so in the controversy section, as is proper. Or has become proper, now that the conversation has taken that turn. I will say that he is an incredibly popular fictional soccer ball robot, despite the movie not even being released yet. For what it is worth, I've been teaching English for seven years, and nobody at my workplace has ever given me a hard time about the generic he, although I admit it isn't a subject which comes up all that often.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by BlueAmaranth » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:41 pm

You're pretty invested in this topic considering that nobody has ever actually given you a hard time for using the style you prefer. Is this a terrifying oppressive conspiracy to control your speech or not?

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Talos » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:08 pm

Conspiracy? No. It is more like a virus. A bad idea which left-wing academics float in order to get people to write and speak the way they want them to. The idea that certain language changes are needed to "make things better", and then some people pick this idea up and run with it, putting it in places such as magazines, newspapers, blogs, and (among many other things) this comic.

And I hope that isn't too much for this section.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Sessine » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:54 pm

Talos wrote:And I hope that isn't too much for this section.
I went looking in the Controversy section and was not able to find your thread to continue the discussion. Could you link to it, please?
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Talos
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Talos » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:10 am

I can take a hint. Please don't bring up the issue in this thread, and I won't reply to it here. I will get around to making a new thread in the controversy section, if I have time to continue this topic at all.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by thinkslogically » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:40 am

As much as I was complaining about forgath's lack of concern for minmax, I've just reread this story arc and forgath's actions do make more sense when you read them all at once. He barely had time to land before 3 random adventurers descended on him and started talking. I can understand forgath's not being willing to dismiss them outright, but also not wanting to trust them with his immediate history right now. I'm hoping he won't accept this particular quest from ward without at least a little soul searching over kore and minmax and his clan, but we'll see...

I still hate the dick jokes though.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by wkwkwkwk1 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:19 am

Hey there guys! :)

While everyone is discussing gender pronouns, I just had to register to say this: in the third panel, there is a comma that shouldn't be there, between "axe" and "warped".

Have a nice day! :)

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:54 am

Apart from pronowns.....this update seems....clunky. Something just feels offf, i think it is because of the suddun introduction that shapeshifting magic can warp a klik, it came out of left field along woth the axe able to change shape, seeems like a dues ex to bring plot so that they would move.

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