January 24th: Not Fast Enough

[brnforce]

This update definitely didn't work for me. I'm glad that the situation was resolved without any casualties, but Complains's breakdown doesn't seem as in-character as him being angry in the first place, and I found the whole thing eye-rollingly maudlin, rather than genuine. Still, I'm not annoyed by it, so much as just glad that it's out of the way; I can't wait to get back to the action.

We've had years, you and I, to get over Chief's death. For Complains it happened much less than an hour ago and he's been fighting or running just about the whole time -- with these desperate moments yammering inside him. Maudlin? Perhaps it'll seem less so if you refresh your memory of Complains' raw, raging, grief-stricken burden of guilt that he was specifically charged with binding Chief's wounds, and failed to save him.

Edit: "Back to the action?" Wait, how is this not action?

Very good points. If we go back to chief's death and go forward with only the Goblins sections we see that this all happened very quickly. Chief died, then a few rounds of combat, then the rope trick, then they sprinted across the bridge. I don't think this even took an hour, more like 10 minutes. This is the first moment that he hasn't been in iminent danger of being slaughtered too. Complains' reaction is reasonable given the timeline.

[knows-little]

the feels, there coming

now i understand why he was acting like how he was he blames himself for chief's death for being to slow man thunt sometimes you make me forget that this is a comic and want to hug complains after seeing how this has eaten at him for so long{ or few minutes to them}

[gangler]

I wonder if Complains might wanna re-evaluate his character class?

If I recall, he originally took up barbarianism just because he considers himself a pretty angry dude and he'd hoped he could turn that into something productive. I guess he's gotten a bit of mileage out of that, but ultimately throwing himself into battle with self-destructive zeal, using his rages to ignore his own pain and injuries, it's all left him less equipped to save his fellow Goblin than ever. His busted up arm can't even handle bandages properly anymore. The entire concept behind the character classes was that he was supposed to get strong so he could become a hero capable of protecting his clan, and he's not really any closer to that. Mixed results at best. Could be time to start putting levels into something else.

I don't think he'd ever share Chief's religious ferver though. Praying to Maglubiyet every morning for boons doesn't really seem his style.

Maybe rogue? They get a lot of skill points that can go into stuff like bandaging, right?

[Kamos]

Auras of Good and Evil operate on a power level basis, it's generally proportionate to your level specifically as a class feature. And the only thing that's really radiated evil at this point was the Axe or Prissan in Saral Caine's hands which was because of the demon.
Anyone else he's just been Yay(like the elite guards) or Nay.

[gangler]

Then again I have to question how that would even be relevant. "He's not evil but that doesn't imply he's 100% on board with us being people" doesn't really do much to convince Complains to postpone the death oath.

[YardMeat]

Nothing in the paladin code says "only attack people of the evil alignment". BE doesn't want Complains to attack MM because he's helpless; he had no problem fighting Forgath and MM on the bridge, though. Sure, he'd be compelled to try to negotiate when no longer in immediate danger (like right now), but perfectly good adventurers kill non-evil monsters all of the time, either because they present a threat or because they are in the midst of committing evil actions.

[Guus]

I'd like them to see get on to doing something productive. I don't mind a good bit of drama, but I did get into this comic for the humor, and I am anxiously waiting for some laughs to return to the comic.

[SUGauthor]

Minmax is on a very slow road to self-improvement, but I'd be shocked to discover he's free of evil in his present state.

I'd be extremely surprised If Minmax had any evil in him. There's a difference between evil and ignorance.

[BuildsLegos]

I'd like them to see get on to doing something productive. I don't mind a good bit of drama, but I did get into this comic for the humor, and I am anxiously waiting for some laughs to return to the comic.

I got into the comic for comedy, drama, action, AND world-building. To only focus on one of his many strengths just because a few fans are picky would be stupid of Thunt.

[Sessine]

Big Ears has been shown to be able to detect various degrees of evil, so that's not a binary value within the story. You can be a little evil or a lot evil, but if a Man like Minmax shows up as not at all evil then that just means that measure isn't worth very much.

Shrug. Then... hey, it's not worth very much. It's your privilege to think so. And indeed on one level I agree; the D&D alignment system does not match well at all to any of the multitudinous meanings people have attached to the words "good" and "evil" in the real world. But we are not talking about the real world. We are talking about a world where the rules of D&D created the starting definitions of good and evil. We can legitimately say 'that's not like the real world' -- but we can't challenge their validity for the goblins, because the rules of D&D are the initial postulates on which the entire story rests.

So the question is, has MinMax crossed the line that defines in-world 'Evil', and if so, in which direction did he cross it?

Since the story began, yes, Minmax has made plenty of false steps. He's not smart, and it's not easy for even smart people to question their own base assumptions about how the world works, but eventually he has always moved in the direction of greater empathy. He can't stand cruelty. When push came to shove, he threw Goblinslayer out the window. He gave Kin a birthday party even though by everything he'd ever been taught, he was supposed to try to kill her. If you take as a given that by game rules he didn't start out as someone who would register as evil (otherwise all player characters would be evil and there could be no paladins in adventuring parties), then his actions since then seem to me to have been moving him closer to good, not evil.

[Guus]

I got into the comic for comedy, drama, action, AND world-building. To only focus on one of his many strengths just because a few fans are picky would be stupid of Thunt.

Did I say anywhere that he should?
I just miss the humor, we haven't had lighter parts in the comic for a looooong time. Drama seems to be all there is, and I'd like to see something more light hearted every now and again, one of those strengths you're talking about, but are completely absent lately.

I agree there are more aspects to this comic than humor, and I haven't said anything that goes against that remark. Saying that's "picky" comes off as rather alien, if you'd ask me.

[Darkpool]

Because years passed in real time between Chief's death and now, and because there have been so many pages of story in that time, I'd forgotten that Chief died maybe ten minutes ago in story time. If that. His body isn't even cold yet. And the GAP have been in non-stop crisis mode since then -- fighting Kore, fleeing Kore, fighting Minmax and Forgath, fleeing Kore again, the mad race to enter the dungeon before Kore gets past Forgath ...

This is the first chance they've had to even pause and take a breath. So yeah, of course grief and guilt are going to hit now. And that's a completely plausible way for Complains to at least briefly get his mind off Minmax.

[Glemp]

Minmax is on a very slow road to self-improvement, but I'd be shocked to discover he's free of evil in his present state.

I'd be extremely surprised If Minmax had any evil in him. There's a difference between evil and ignorance.

During the attack on the warcamp, Forgath was dragging injured, pleading goblins to MM for him to slaughter.

[Guus]

Well, since it's mainly 3.5 this comic seems to depend upon, evil creatures are evil anyway, and it matters not what you do with them, because they were created to be evil. THunt took the liberty to nuance that (like I imagine many DM's would, and D&D novels like the Drizz't series too), but in the basis a creature is of an evil alignment and therefore it does not really matter what you do to them. Torture for the sake of torture is evil, but dragging away an evil creature for sharing XP in the party or because they stick together can be totally justified following that logic. It would be terrible in the real world, but most D&D lore accepts Forgath's and MinMax's behaviour as not impeding on their alignment. Goblins are evil, they can be murdered without a problem or question.

[YardMeat]

Well, since it's mainly 3.5 this comic seems to depend upon, evil creatures are evil anyway, and it matters not what you do with them, because they were created to be evil. THunt took the liberty to nuance that (like I imagine many DM's would, and D&D novels like the Drizz't series too), but in the basis a creature is of an evil alignment and therefore it does not really matter what you do to them. Torture for the sake of torture is evil, but dragging away an evil creature for sharing XP in the party or because they stick together can be totally justified following that logic. It would be terrible in the real world, but most D&D lore accepts Forgath's and MinMax's behaviour as not impeding on their alignment. Goblins are evil, they can be murdered without a problem or question.

Not true. Goblins are usually neutral evil in 3.5, not always evil. 3rd ed typically made this distinction for creatures intelligent enough to make moral distinctions.

[Guus]

Ah, sorry, seems like I misunderstood then

[RocketScientist]

http://goblinscomic.wikia.com/wiki/Goblins_FAQ

The Goblins world is based off the d20 system Dungeons and Dragons version 3.0 with added home-brew elements and the 3.5 system.

[BuildsLegos]

I got into the comic for comedy, drama, action, AND world-building. To only focus on one of his many strengths just because a few fans are picky would be stupid of Thunt.

Did I say anywhere that he should?
I just miss the humor, we haven't had lighter parts in the comic for a looooong time. Drama seems to be all there is, and I'd like to see something more light hearted every now and again, one of those strengths you're talking about, but are completely absent lately.

I agree there are more aspects to this comic than humor, and I haven't said anything that goes against that remark. Saying that's "picky" comes off as rather alien, if you'd ask me.

I was under the impression that you were implying as much; I'm happy to see that it's just a preference for balance, sorry.

[Guus]

No probs, text based interpretation is always difficult, reading back I can see how that's what you'd take from my post, so sorry from my part, and thanks

[Lady Dawn]

I like this page. It's dynamic and expressive. I like how Thunt improved so much which expressive stances since the beginning of the comic. It's just fun looking back and wondering how far I could come if I would start to draw a comic and kept that up for....ehm, how many years is it now? It almost seemed like a breeze but apparently those years added up quite a lot.
Too bad I'm bad at drawing and worse at stories. And this story got me sucked in in just a few pages.
I hope this page doesn't get too much details in the shadowing because I like the spirit of this drawing style that made the former wobbly style already quite appealing and luckily remained while it improved. I think it fits the fantasy-RPG style very well.

Also interesting how suddenly Complains shows something from beneath his surface. And even more interesting how unsettling that feels.
I bet 3 cookies that we'll hear a drumroll in 3...2...1.... ehm...any time now....any time...

[gangler]

Big Ears has been shown to be able to detect various degrees of evil, so that's not a binary value within the story. You can be a little evil or a lot evil, but if a Man like Minmax shows up as not at all evil then that just means that measure isn't worth very much.

Shrug. Then... hey, it's not worth very much. It's your privilege to think so. And indeed on one level I agree; the D&D alignment system does not match well at all to any of the multitudinous meanings people have attached to the words "good" and "evil" in the real world. But we are not talking about the real world. We are talking about a world where the rules of D&D created the starting definitions of good and evil. We can legitimately say 'that's not like the real world' -- but we can't challenge their validity for the goblins, because the rules of D&D are the initial postulates on which the entire story rests.

So the question is, has MinMax crossed the line that defines in-world 'Evil', and if so, in which direction did he cross it?

Since the story began, yes, Minmax has made plenty of false steps. He's not smart, and it's not easy for even smart people to question their own base assumptions about how the world works, but eventually he has always moved in the direction of greater empathy. He can't stand cruelty. When push came to shove, he threw Goblinslayer out the window. He gave Kin a birthday party even though by everything he'd ever been taught, he was supposed to try to kill her. If you take as a given that by game rules he didn't start out as someone who would register as evil (otherwise all player characters would be evil and there could be no paladins in adventuring parties), then his actions since then seem to me to have been moving him closer to good, not evil.

The story started with Minmax slaying almost everybody Complains ever knew and loved simply because he didn't think their lives held value and he thought it would be a lark. He's made only the barest adjustments to his attitudes regarding the monstrous races since then, and if the concept of good and evil doesn't encompass this then it's simply not a relevant concept to Complains and his death oath. Not because Complains wouldn't hold to his own universe's concept of good and evil, but simply because being non-evil doesn't imply anything about Minmax that would mean he should be left to live.

[Knucklekraken]

Actually, the just thing to do here would be to kill everyone Minmax loves. Which, mission accomplished as far as the party is concerned.

[Guus]

Now that's an evil idea in any system as far as I understand them
Let's make others suffer for the deeds of an individual!

[Knucklekraken]

The dead don't suffer. The living suffer their loss. The dead are just dead.

[Guus]

That's... very "the Ripper" of you