26 Jun-05 Jul 2015: "Not-Walter" screams like a little girl

[thesilence]

We are neither of those things. We are a deeply committed believer in an ethical system far more sophisticated than those which are currently in vogue among the shallow, vapid, self-absorbed, smugly superior inheritors of this flash-in-the-pan modern society.

When an elecromagnetic pulse destroys all the information networks which you have allowed to replace most of your brain functions...when your leaders quietly and without argument confiscate your right of ownership over your very bodies, memories, and so forth....when, as inevitably happens, things go horribly, horribly wrong, and your world turns into your worst nightmares, you will wish you had listened to us, telling you to appreciate what little you had, and not to feel so full of yourselves.

[mustache_man]

We are neither of those things. We are a deeply committed believer in an ethical system far more sophisticated than those which are currently in vogue among the shallow, vapid, self-absorbed, smugly superior inheritors of this flash-in-the-pan modern society.

When an elecromagnetic pulse destroys all the information networks which you have allowed to replace most of your brain functions...when your leaders quietly and without argument confiscate your right of ownership over your very bodies, memories, and so forth....when, as inevitably happens, things go horribly, horribly wrong, and your world turns into your worst nightmares, you will wish you had listened to us, telling you to appreciate what little you had, and not to feel so full of yourselves.

Childish troll it is then. Thank you.

[Krulle]

While I do not agree with much of the discussions here in any direction, I wish to ask you, mustache_man, to stop insulting someone as childish.

I can understand if someone wishes to allow problematic art just to allow some real art to evolve from that.
But I do agree with mustache_man that even art should NOT violate laws, nor the free will of animals and Humans. And especially not harm them.

Digital dementia is a problem. A fast-growing one. And with the current teenager population growing up, I also question myself how they'd cope with loosing their memory (they can still think, but they cannot remember anything, they have the knowledge outsourced).
If terrorists found out how dependent we are on our electronic helpers for our jobs and to keep our infrastructure running, and how easy it is to build small EMP charges, they'd be making a few and detonate them at the same time in many places.
Imagine the major stock exchanges in Manhattan being attacked at the same time by EMP charges.
We know they've been doing their best to harden themselves, as everyone knows they're a possible target.
But how effective is their hardening?
But then, I think they'd rely more on their back-up systems which are installed in EMP-proof positions and work from there.
But the electricity companies?
Public transport?
Air-plane marshallers?

We'd be in deep .... problems.

[mustache_man]

While I do not agree with much of the discussions here in any direction, I wish to ask you, mustache_man, to stop insulting someone as childish.

I can understand if someone wishes to allow problematic art just to allow some real art to evolve from that.
But I do agree with mustache_man that even art should NOT violate laws, nor the free will of animals and Humans. And especially not harm them.

Digital dementia is a problem. A fast-growing one. And with the current teenager population growing up, I also question myself how they'd cope with loosing their memory (they can still think, but they cannot remember anything, they have the knowledge outsourced).
If terrorists found out how dependent we are on our electronic helpers for our jobs and to keep our infrastructure running, and how easy it is to build small EMP charges, they'd be making a few and detonate them at the same time in many places.
Imagine the major stock exchanges in Manhattan being attacked at the same time by EMP charges.
We know they've been doing their best to harden themselves, as everyone knows they're a possible target.
But how effective is their hardening?
But then, I think they'd rely more on their back-up systems which are installed in EMP-proof positions and work from there.
But the electricity companies?
Public transport?
Air-plane marshallers?

We'd be in deep .... problems.

Nobody in this thread advocated the prohibition of bad art. The only "arguments against art" that were made were that nobody should be given a free pass in the name of art and that art is not exempt from criticism. Stop chasing that strawman or tell me how in the world you expect "quality art" to evolve from child porn, animal torture, because those were the ONLY things that were explicitly told should not exist or count as art.

How a discussion that started by criticizing a comic page leads to an argument about the art value of animal torture is completely beyond me and a prime example of why people outside this community get the whole cult vibe.

This thread is quickly making me root for the EMP totting terrorists. I'm done.

[nikohl]

Mustache_man, you appear to be quoting Krulle in your reply but arguing against thesilence. Krulle didn't bring up any of the things you're annoyed about, he's carrying on the discussion and from what I can see, agreeing with you. What strawman is he arguing against? Or have I missed something?

Also, here I go again wearing my mod hat:

"Notice:"

---

This is the second time I've had to specifically remind people not to resort to personal attacks in this discussion thread. If I have to say it again, to anybody, I'll be saying it with warnings.

Seriously, guys. This is basic debate team stuff. Disagree without including your subjective and offensive personal opinions of other posters, no matter how strongly you hold those opinions. If you have a problem with another user's words and you think they're breaking the rules or otherwise acting inappropriately, then report their post, PM me or PM another mod if you don't want to talk to me for whatever reason. Don't resort to being a dick. Kthx

[thesilence]

If terrorists found out how dependent we are on our electronic helpers for our jobs and to keep our infrastructure running

Make no mistake - they already know. Arab Spring was coordinated on the "deep web"; the so-called "second world" understands the West's technological infrastructure just fine, even if they choose not to become so completely dependent upon it (which In Our Opinion suggests they are wisher than America and Europe and Japan have already chosen to be, and China and India and Russia should strongly consider not following our lead so quickly either).

We realize that we are making this argument on the forums of an internet comic, thereby depriving us of any real authority to speak on the subject...but for about the past 125 years, America and the rest of the western world has been in the process of hypnotizing itself into helplessness with an entertainment industry gone mad, which has since day 1 been powered by advertisement revenue, leading with alarming rapidity to a world in which, because of the first world's infantile need for constant amusement and escapism (again, this writer is throwing stones from within a glass house, but even so), we quickly succumb to the siren's song of a completely false lifestyle for which we happily mortgage away our futures, and the entire rest of the world follows our lead, apart from a few diehard radicals who go too far in rejecting it. Perhaps this writer is one of those radicals, even if he does not share the religious affiliation which usually underlies their defiance.

I do not wish for our society to entirely stop being the way it is; I merely wish for us to rein ourselves in a little bit, stop operating entirely and unrepentantly on unchecked egotistical self-assurance. However, as a capitalist society, we have unequivocally rejected all notions of balance, fairness, self-restraint, or anything that I would call sanity. We charge recklessly ahead, damning the torpedoes, like a bull chasing a red flag, and our corporate toreadors gleefully profit from our stupidity. My hatred for those puppetmasters is almost, but not quite, sufficient that I wish to see our entire society burn, and all of its people including myself reduced to abject suffering, as punishment for the role that they have played in supporting the rise to power of their own enslavers.

Imagine the major stock exchanges in Manhattan being attacked at the same time by EMP charges.

That would be a brilliant and beautiful bit of poetic justice; it would harm the common people little if at all, while wiping out the entirely-imaginary fortunes of millions of white-collar speculators who have been gambling with othe people's money in order to profit themselves, and deserve to suffer for it. I only wish that the forces who might consider actually pursuing such an action were ever willing to actually do JUST that, instead of treating that as Step 1 of a plan that further continues into pointless bloodshed and nonsense about women wearing burqas or something B'cuzGodSezSo. Toppling the Ivory Tower that has engineered the oppression of their society ought to be enough, but nooooooo.......

But the electricity companies?

Frankly, I am consistently astonished that these have never attempted to band together and stage a coup. The ease with which they could hold our entire country hostage and force a takeover of our government is astonishing; we cannot do ANYTHING without them anymore, surely they could assume open rulership of every industrial nation without a shot being fired.

[nikohl]

And I am back again with another polite notice: please return to the title topic. The above sort thing belongs over in Controversy - which despite the name isn't always for controversial stuff and is basically non-comic debate-land.

Anyway: the conversation had been drifting steadily off the topic of the mini-comic for a while now, but was still tangentially related... The above, however, is 100% off topic. If you like I can split the thread and move your post (and if necessary those leading up to it) over into a new thread in Controversy where that part of the discussion can continue for you.

[BlueAmaranth]

Anyway: the conversation had been drifting steadily off the topic of the mini-comic for a while now, but was still tangentially related... The above, however, is 100% off topic. If you like I can split the thread and move your post (and if necessary those leading up to it) over into a new thread in Controversy where that part of the discussion can continue for you.

Oh my god, please please do this, I'm loving this thread.

[mustache_man]

Mustache_man, you appear to be quoting Krulle in your reply but arguing against thesilence. Krulle didn't bring up any of the things you're annoyed about, he's carrying on the discussion and from what I can see, agreeing with you. What strawman is he arguing against? Or have I missed something?

I can understand if someone wishes to allow problematic art just to allow some real art to evolve from that.

It was this part I objected to. The strawman argument was raised a few pages back when Thesilence argued that no art should be prohibited in any case and that the page should not be deleted (even if nobody ever suggested it) and then claimed he was saying this to the masses pout there and some such. The same argument was just used to defend the right to torture animals for art. That's the "problematic art" being defended by that line, even if unwittingly.

I probably shouldn't have quoted the whole post, but I was doing it from my ipad and it's clunky. That's the only thing I will apologize for and I only posted this to clarify it to you. I have no desire to even look at this thread again.

[Krulle]

Then I won't comment on this anymore, especially in view of incomplete citations...

Anyway, I still want to know how Greena got the information over Grinnorarcen/Not-Walter....
And why along the way she apparently did not get hold of one of the minor fiends...

[nikohl]

I can understand if someone wishes to allow problematic art just to allow some real art to evolve from that.

It was this part I objected to. The strawman argument was raised a few pages back when Thesilence argued that no art should be prohibited in any case and that the page should not be deleted (even if nobody ever suggested it) and then claimed he was saying this to the masses pout there and some such. The same argument was just used to defend the right to torture animals for art. That's the "problematic art" being defended by that line, even if unwittingly.

I probably shouldn't have quoted the whole post, but I was doing it from my ipad and it's clunky. That's the only thing I will apologize for and I only posted this to clarify it to you. I have no desire to even look at this thread again.

I'm on my ipad and managing fine with the inbuilt select, cut and paste functions - but each to their own. And if you don't want to participate in the thread then maybe just don't, rather than posting to say that you're not going to. That seems a little overdramatic to me.

In response to your post, despite the fact that you claim you're not going to read it - the rest of Krulle's sentence, which you quoted but apparently also didn't read, agreed with you (specifically and by name, I might add.) He said, and I'm paraphrasing, 'I can sort of see what thesilence is saying, but actually I agree with mustache_man, and on a semi-related note, illegal stuff should remain very illegal even if it's meant to be all arty'... to which you responded with 'no killing puppies child porn strawman cult ' etc; if you're going to direct that kind of vitriol anywhere, aim it at the person who actually holds the opinion you're against, not the guy who chimed in several pages after the fact to agree with you.

Anyhow, given that this is one of the "almost off topic topics" and I'm pretty close to ignoring my own mod notice, I'm gonna step out before we depart entirely from the comic and get into some other random discussion again.

[BlueAmaranth]

A Man once tied a dog to a pole and left it there for days without Food and Water. It died inside an "Art" studio a slow, painful death. Another Man would capture, torture and mutilate Cats and Kittens all while filming/taking pictures he would later sell, you know, for "Art". Lets not forgot all the Child porn in the world masquerading as so called "Art". People do INDEED have the right to say that SOME "Art" should NOT exist.

We still disagree. While it is likely that the "artists" here were simply sociopaths justifying their diseased actions, it cannot be ruled out that there was a legitimate point being made, one important enough to justify the extreme nature of the medium. "Porn" is by its nature gratuitous and shallow, and you are right that most of it "masquerades" as art rather than being so legitimately - but no person's individual opinion, nor the collective will of any group, is sufficiently perfect in judgment that it can be trusted to arbitrate where artistic merit ends. When in doubt, assume that people and animals were going to suffer and die anyway, simply by virtue of the world's unforgivingly cruel nature....so they might as well have at least the chance of fulfilling some higher purpose by it, something that transcends the pointlessness of reality, however fleetingly and insubstantially.

Wow. This argument is repulsive. I'm honestly surprised that no mods took issue with it. Maybe the florid prose caused them to gloss over what you actually said, so I'm going to real quick translate it into normal speech:

"You say that child pornography are kinds of 'art' that shouldn't exist. I disagree, because there's a remote chance that the creators of a given film of child porn were trying to make an artistic point. Nobody is perfect enough to decide whether a given piece of child porn has artistic merit, so you can't say that child porn shouldn't exist. If there is artistic merit in child porn, that would of course justify both its existence and the victimization of children necessary for its existence. Hey, the victimized children will eventually die anyway, so it's good that they at least got to first fulfill a 'higher purpose' (specifically, child pornography)."

I don't really get why mustache_man is getting called out for strawmanning when you did in fact make it clear that you think child porn should be permitted to exist on the basis of theoretical artistic merit.

[nikohl]

BA, nobody called mustache_man out for strawmanning, or at least not that I saw? I asked him why he seemed to be attacking Krulle (including accusing Krulle of strawmanning) in direct response to points that thesilence made. I thought perhaps he'd mixed the two people up, since his response to Krulle explicitly agreeing with him was strangely angry, but it seems not. I didn't have a problem with the points he made, I was initially confused by who he was directing said points at.

As far as thesilence's opinion that you quoted above - I read it, I disagreed quite strongly, but I concluded that s/he didn't break any rules in posting it so I didn't intercede in a modly capacity. I didn't need it re-stated in plain English to come to that conclusion.

However, this isn't the place to discuss child pornography in any way shape or form, so since people are now talking about it in great detail rather than just (I assume) doing what I did and reading it, making a ":s" face and carrying on with their lives, I bring out my shiny blue voice again:

"Notice:"

---

For the comfort of all, while it is not explicitly against the forum rules, please try to avoid using child pornography as an example in debates. There are other ways to make your point.

And: still incredibly OT. If I wasn't on my iPad and about to go to a wedding, I'd have split this whole thing out into a debatey thread of its own already so people could continue talking without it being off-topic, but that's a series of clicks I don't trust the iPad to handle properly

[Guus]

I just realized we've lost CooksaCarrot
We need our caped hero!

So, how about not-walter's skin tone? Weirdly red, ain't it?

[nikohl]

Incredibly red! You know what else is red? Strawberries. I like strawberries. They make good jam. Except then it's got pips in, and they're not very tasty and they get stuck in the ol' gnashers.

...nope, I'm nowhere near as good at the sudden distraction nonsequitur as Carrot was.

Back to you, Guus.

[Guus]

he should've been able to shrug off his doll enemy with his redness alone. Everyone knows red creatures have a +5 against a doll's fear attacks. I guess he fumbled a few rolls.

[thesilence]

For the comfort of all, while it is not explicitly against the forum rules, please try to avoid using child pornography as an example in debates. There are other ways to make your point.

A fine example of why people's comfort, or other feelings, have no business whatsoever being used as a guideline for public policy. If the best way to make your point is to hammer it right at the most vulnerable part of your audience, so that they cannot blithely ignore exactly what you are saying in all of its terrifying implications, as they would otherwise have done (since it's human nature to sugar-coat everything and ignore unpleasant truths)....then that is exactly what you should do. If you don't escalate a situation to its ultimate, then nobody takes you seriously; better to be thought a radical, a dangerous maniac, or even an inhuman monster, rather than simply to be a loudmouthed fool that nobody pays attention to.

[Xavier78]

Snip

You just tried (and failed) to justify torture and child porn. Nothing, and I mean nothing, you ever say from this point on will be anything more than a joke to me. I would be terrified to see your search history. The fact that you try and justify this while hiding anonymously behind your monitor is hilarious to me. Post that "justification" on social media with your real name and see what that gets you.

Sorry mods. I will step away from this convo now. I've said my piece.

[lingrem]

[mod="lingrem"]Nikohl has asked, multiple times in this thread for behaviour to change. Your response to her here is rude. One of the forum rules IS to listen to the mod's decision, and you are not doing that. I am giving you an official warning for well... all the other times where nikohl could have gave you one. If you continue with... all of this... you will receive a temp ban.

For the comfort of all, while it is not explicitly against the forum rules, please try to avoid using child pornography as an example in debates. There are other ways to make your point.

A fine example of why people's comfort, or other feelings, have no business whatsoever being used as a guideline for public policy. If the best way to make your point is to hammer it right at the most vulnerable part of your audience, so that they cannot blithely ignore exactly what you are saying in all of its terrifying implications, as they would otherwise have done (since it's human nature to sugar-coat everything and ignore unpleasant truths)....then that is exactly what you should do. If you don't escalate a situation to its ultimate, then nobody takes you seriously; better to be thought a radical, a dangerous maniac, or even an inhuman monster, rather than simply to be a loudmouthed fool that nobody pays attention to.

[/mod]

"Notice:"

---

The rest of you: I see you are trying to follow nikohl's request. Please, start up a new thread in controversy if you want to hash it out a bit more - but the latest stuff in this thread barely even seems like it's related to this comic!

Also - I'm tired, and very well may not even remember that I posted here. I know my explanation above isn't the best, but really, nikohl and many of you have been explaining things away much better within the posts.

[nikohl]

Ah. I went to bed. It's probably good I went to bed and came back to find that already dealt with in my absence. Thanks, Lin. Had I woken up at 6am on my mother's wedding day to find I'd been rudely ignored by the person that I'd spent several minutes explaining to others was allowed to hold horrible opinions because he wasn't breaking any rules... Well, I might have reacted banly badly.

[Krulle]

Incredibly red! You know what else is red? Strawberries. I like strawberries. They make good jam. Except then it's got pips in, and they're not very tasty and they get stuck in the ol' gnashers.

Well, against those pips there is a trick: filter the jam through a clean piece of cloth before thicking it in.
You'll miss out on strawberry bits too, but that might be worth the price...
I wash and rub the strawberries rather strongly, which also gets rid of most pips... :)

[Synch]

I prefer raspberries, to be honest. Maybe its because have a bit more of a tart taste?

[Krulle]

I find their pips even more annoying...

Strawberry pips I can bite open, but rasberry? Either I bite them into the most narrow spaces between teeth (and shifting my teeth slightly), or they taste horribly...

[SpellsBedly]

Crap. I went on vacation missed the bonus stories (aside from the first half of this one). I was hoping they'd stay up, but this thread is the reason they didn't, isn't it?

Ah well, it was incredibly generous of Thunt to hand them out in the first place, and I still get the regular updates.

[nikohl]

I imagine they've gone due to the birthday celebrations ending, rather than the thread, but I suppose it's possible. Nobody's said anything specific, not to my knowledge anyway :/ I'm sorry you missed them.