10th April 2017: Rough-housing with Care

[Arch Lich Burns]

They didn't need mm though, the whole reason for forgoth and mm to slow down kore was because they slowed down the goblins first. Without mm, ears axe would not be destroyed, and they eould not be playing around while thier friends are dying. Mm has nothelped inside the dungeon and only provided a hinderance.

[thinkslogically]

Well.... He DID fix fumbles

[Guus]

They didn't need mm though, the whole reason for forgoth and mm to slow down kore was because they slowed down the goblins first.

I think they did, he held open the portcullis here: http://www.goblinscomic.org/12222013/
Maybe they would've been able to do that by themselves, but I think they couldn't have without MM's insane strength.

Without mm, ears axe would not be destroyed, and they eould not be playing around while thier friends are dying. Mm has nothelped inside the dungeon and only provided a hinderance.

Yeah, I really disliked those scenes. Still, I think you're doing MM a disservice, the goblins were mindblowingly weird in their behaviour as well.

[Arch Lich Burns]

Well.... He DID fix fumbles

Fumbles was getting better by himself though. I fon't think they needed MM at all.

Oh yea everybody was acting out of character/odd in this dungeon espessially ears.

[brnforce]

Well.... He DID fix fumbles

Fumbles was getting better by himself though. I fon't think they needed MM at all.

Oh yea everybody was acting out of character/odd in this dungeon espessially ears.

I disagree completely. Without MM, Fumbles would still be mute.

[Liquidmark]

They didn't need mm though, the whole reason for forgoth and mm to slow down kore was because they slowed down the goblins first. Without mm, ears axe would not be destroyed, and they eould not be playing around while thier friends are dying. Mm has nothelped inside the dungeon and only provided a hinderance.

Without mm and Forgath, kore would have caught up to them, brutally murdered them and drank their souls. Just like that. There's no way that they would have solved the puzzle and entered the dungeon crawl before he reached them. As for doing something in the dungeon so far, he hasn't really had much opportunity to do much at this time. He's more of an idiot savant when it comes to fixing complex problems with the simplest solution. They haven't really be hit with anything major besides the rope trap. One things for sure, he'll prove essential in the dungeon on some level. He's never failed to step up in the past.

Anyhow, Ears' axe being destroyed was probably an inevitability and their friends are stabilized.

[Bapuvitttssf]

Hi, I'm new here, but a long-time reader (I think from before Brassmoon).

I have forgotten about that: how does Complains know about Kin & MM? The goblins were separated from her before she met MM, and next time they and MM met was on the bridge with Kore nearby.

Also, will we get information about Complains' "magic" demonic status from the Wall of Knowledge (because that's where he's been stuck by MM, right?)?

[RocketScientist]

[quote="Bapuvitttssf"]Hi, I'm new here, but a long-time reader (I think from before Brassmoon).

I have forgotten about that: how does Complains know about Kin & MM? The goblins were separated from her before she met MM, and next time they and MM met was on the bridge with Kore nearby.

Minmax told us when she appeared on the pillar.

Welcome to the forums.

[Arch Lich Burns]

I firmly believe the govlins could have gotten into the dungeon without MM's help. They are very capable little guys. As for fumbles being 'mute' I recall he did a battle cry at Kore, so he was getting better. Not as quickly but I think with time and pressure of everything going on he would have gotten back to his regular self without MM.

MM said to names that names does not care if fumbles lives or dies, names' rage is justified. The strawman (names) has a point, MM only seem to briefly cared the forgoth/kin are gone. Names might not know about MM trying to force Kin to listen to him by holding her leash (which I admit I loathe MM for), but if he did that justifies him even more.

The axe being destroyed could have been prevented because without MM the 'demons' would not attack and the axe would not break. And I don't trust the demon's ploy to get ears to hell with the axe, nor that it was bound to break soon.

[Bapuvitttssf]

Minmax told us when she appeared on the pillar.

Welcome to the forums.

Thanks! I totally forgot that moment...

[Segev]

Ah! Figured out the comic-topic-posting-scheme. Well, in that case, since I've noticed somebody else saying so, I'll second the thought: Fumbles could wear the cloak of pain to absorb as many images as he wants...and his pain tolerance will let him wait through. Whether he has high pain tolerance or low after the torture is an interesting question.

Frankly, both MinMax and Names are being believable people, here. Neither likes each other; both see each other as representatives of categories. MinMax isn't over his friends. But he's an adventurer, and adventurers focus on the adventure or they die horribly. And since he's not that goblin in question, MinMax is going to work to avoid a fate for which he's not inevitably destined. Both have touched raw nerves on the other, somewhat unintentionally.

And MinMax isn't "forcing Names to listen." He's being a highly physical person who uses fallacy of the club to win arguments. "You take that back!" with threatened violence if it's not taken back is so time-honored that, even intellectually recognizing how stupid it is, we tend to accept it as "a thing." (I mean, seriously, him taking it back because he's afraid of you hitting him isn't changing that he believes it. Nor whether others think it. And yet, we act like him taking it back undermines his credibility, rather than merely showing him to value lack-of-pain and to not believe he's physically able to overcome the one making the demand.)

[miados]

Well.... He DID fix fumbles

Fumbles was getting better by himself though. I fon't think they needed MM at all.

Oh yea everybody was acting out of character/odd in this dungeon espessially ears.

I disagree completely. Without MM, Fumbles would still be mute.

at this point in time yeah basically he would still be mute. plus I doubt they could have gotten into the dungeon without mm holding the gate open. kore probably just used his shield to hold the gate open I imagine.

[Liquidmark]

I firmly believe the govlins could have gotten into the dungeon without MM's help. They are very capable little guys. As for fumbles being 'mute' I recall he did a battle cry at Kore, so he was getting better. Not as quickly but I think with time and pressure of everything going on he would have gotten back to his regular self without MM.

MM said to names that names does not care if fumbles lives or dies, names' rage is justified. The strawman (names) has a point, MM only seem to briefly cared the forgoth/kin are gone. Names might not know about MM trying to force Kin to listen to him by holding her leash (which I admit I loathe MM for), but if he did that justifies him even more.

The axe being destroyed could have been prevented because without MM the 'demons' would not attack and the axe would not break. And I don't trust the demon's ploy to get ears to hell with the axe, nor that it was bound to break soon.

I think they would have figured it out if kore wasn't there trying to reach them. With kore right there? Not a chance, they would die.

Minmax grabbed Kin's leash by accident. He didn't mean to force her to do anything. I grant him a royal pardon for that.

Minmax is really emotionally grounded as a character. He seems to only dwell on things that he can actually change and (reluctantly) accept things that he can't. He can't be with Kin, so he moved on to the only thing he had left, destroying the goblins, his original mission. As far as he knows, Forgath is long dead and there is no way to change that. He offered to stay behind and battle Kore alone and his motivation right now is to fight Kore when the stage is to his advantage in some way, iirc. What is Minmax supposed to do to show that he cared for them so that Complains doesn't think that he only uses people? Minmax tried to save Forgath at the bridge by throwing him Oblivious, which is impossible. Once the door was open, he tried to rush to Forgath's aid and tried to figure out a way to go back for him after they were pulled into the dungeon crawl.

What he said about the goblins isn't accurate to how they feel about fumbles. But from Minmax's perspective, they are putting his new friend at risk. *Maybe* Minmax *is* using people around him on some level. He seems to have a need for someone to be close to, laugh with and protect. He doesn't seem the type to be able or adapt well to being on his lonesome.

As for the "demon" room. The mere fact that they were standing there ment that a conflict or fight of some sort was inevitable. Maybe it would have played differently had Minmax not been there, but we will never know that.

[BiggestBlackest]

These wounds are still fresh.

There's a lot of fresh, inconsistently-felt wounds in this room.

I hope no one reminds anyone about the unstoppable killing machine right behind them, or they might remember they should be feeling fear!

[Morgaln]

Minmax grabbed Kin's leash by accident. He didn't mean to force her to do anything. I grant him a royal pardon for that.

I interpret that scene differently. When we look at the page in question, we see Minmax talking to Kin as she slithers away from him. Then he falls silent and looks down (panel 9), presumably noticing the trailing leash. In the next panel we see him not just holding the leash but pulling on it with both hands, while giving her a clear order. So he's not grabbing it mid-sentence like you would grab someone's arm or shoulder (which he could have easily done), he's very deliberately taking up the leash. Now he might not have thought about the magical properties of the leash at that point, but his whole reaction afterwards suggests that he did. If he had not thought about what the leash does, I would have expected him to drop the leash and back away; basically body language for "I invaded your personal space and touched you without consent, I didn't mean to." Instead he hands the leash to her; which comes off as somewhat arrogant, because the leash never was his and so isn't his to give. After that, all he ever says is that he's sorry; even when he gets a last opportunity to explain himself, he never says that he didn't think about the magic power of the leash, even though that would be his best defense for what he did and very important to mention that he didn't actually mean to force her to do anything.
Of course this is my subjective interpretation of what happened. You might see it differently. The comic doesn't state it clearly either way.

[Segev]

Looking at the page, yes, I can see what you mean, but...I think you're reading that all wrong. To paraphrase <I>12 Angry Men</I> you have to have MinMax's intelligence and ability to plan and process consequences vacillate rapidly in that scene to have him both a) see the leash and comprehend that it would give him power to command her, and b) not realize this would horrify her and ruin every chance he might have had to talk to her.

What I think we see there is him looking down in despair, and, in his desperation to stop her from leaving, noticing a trailing thing - like a coat sleave or her shoulder - and grabbing it. As you note, he's holding it in both hands. He's hauling back on it, exerting physical force to stop her from leaving. As we see in the most recent page (as of this post), he is a physical man who resorts to physical force to get people to pay attention when he's emotional and feels ignored or unable to control the situation. Now, that's not a "justified" action. But it's understandable. And something I think he would have done with or without the leash's magical compulsion. If the compulsion hadn't been there, it wouldn't have been so devastating to Kin, either, most likely. Though, of course, she'd still be offended. I mean, grabbing somebody trying to leave and physically forcing them to stay is not going to win friends.

He was acting out of unthinking desperation to keep her there. "Unthinking" is key, because for MinMax, remembering the Leash's magical power would have required thought.

He deserves the pardon for the mind-control effect. He can be held accountable for trying to physically restrain her, but he never did nor would have engaged in physically harmful behavior towards her. At least, not as I interpret it. Heck, he's not even really hurt Names just yet, only threatened. Now, you're free to find him to be in the wrong there anyway. I know I would if he did it to me. But then, I'm not the sort who engages in threats of violence to win arguments or force people to take back insults. Both MinMax and Names are from cultures that support that kind of behavior as "manly." Or "gobliny," I guess, in Names's case. You know what I mean. Even today, there is a strong sentiment that you deserve it if you insult somebody with sufficiently horrid an insult and he punches you for it. (There is also strong sentiment that such is never justified; I don't mean to start arguing the merits of either. Only that you can have a generally non-Evil person engaged in such behavior.)

[Liquidmark]

Minmax grabbed Kin's leash by accident. He didn't mean to force her to do anything. I grant him a royal pardon for that.

I interpret that scene differently. When we look at the page in question, we see Minmax talking to Kin as she slithers away from him. Then he falls silent and looks down (panel 9), presumably noticing the trailing leash. In the next panel we see him not just holding the leash but pulling on it with both hands, while giving her a clear order. So he's not grabbing it mid-sentence like you would grab someone's arm or shoulder (which he could have easily done), he's very deliberately taking up the leash. Now he might not have thought about the magical properties of the leash at that point, but his whole reaction afterwards suggests that he did. If he had not thought about what the leash does, I would have expected him to drop the leash and back away; basically body language for "I invaded your personal space and touched you without consent, I didn't mean to." Instead he hands the leash to her; which comes off as somewhat arrogant, because the leash never was his and so isn't his to give. After that, all he ever says is that he's sorry; even when he gets a last opportunity to explain himself, he never says that he didn't think about the magic power of the leash, even though that would be his best defense for what he did and very important to mention that he didn't actually mean to force her to do anything.
Of course this is my subjective interpretation of what happened. You might see it differently. The comic doesn't state it clearly either way.

The way I saw it, it was like him grabbing some part of her to keep her from getting away and it dawned on him that he did a boo boo. It's very possible that he doesn't know how strong the hold/effect that leash has on her. In the very next page, he gives her the leash back and begins to apologize before she punches him and slithers off. After that there's no point in trying to explain or make excuses he has already done a good enough job burning bridges so far and it was time for him to let her go because whatever was going to happen before wasn't going to happen now or ever as far as he could tell.

Looking at the page, yes, I can see what you mean, but...I think you're reading that all wrong. To paraphrase <I>12 Angry Men</I> you have to have MinMax's intelligence and ability to plan and process consequences vacillate rapidly in that scene to have him both a) see the leash and comprehend that it would give him power to command her, and b) not realize this would horrify her and ruin every chance he might have had to talk to her.

What I think we see there is him looking down in despair, and, in his desperation to stop her from leaving, noticing a trailing thing - like a coat sleave or her shoulder - and grabbing it. As you note, he's holding it in both hands. He's hauling back on it, exerting physical force to stop her from leaving. As we see in the most recent page (as of this post), he is a physical man who resorts to physical force to get people to pay attention when he's emotional and feels ignored or unable to control the situation. Now, that's not a "justified" action. But it's understandable. And something I think he would have done with or without the leash's magical compulsion. If the compulsion hadn't been there, it wouldn't have been so devastating to Kin, either, most likely. Though, of course, she'd still be offended. I mean, grabbing somebody trying to leave and physically forcing them to stay is not going to win friends.

He was acting out of unthinking desperation to keep her there. "Unthinking" is key, because for MinMax, remembering the Leash's magical power would have required thought.

He deserves the pardon for the mind-control effect. He can be held accountable for trying to physically restrain her, but he never did nor would have engaged in physically harmful behavior towards her. At least, not as I interpret it. Heck, he's not even really hurt Names just yet, only threatened. Now, you're free to find him to be in the wrong there anyway. I know I would if he did it to me. But then, I'm not the sort who engages in threats of violence to win arguments or force people to take back insults. Both MinMax and Names are from cultures that support that kind of behavior as "manly." Or "gobliny," I guess, in Names's case. You know what I mean. Even today, there is a strong sentiment that you deserve it if you insult somebody with sufficiently horrid an insult and he punches you for it. (There is also strong sentiment that such is never justified; I don't mean to start arguing the merits of either. Only that you can have a generally non-Evil person engaged in such behavior.)

Yup, my assessment pretty much though you explained it better. I think he just grabbed it because it was convenient but I don't think he had the forethought of "I'm gonna control her and MAKE her obey".

My only concern is what would happen if he runs into another female yuan-ti, what will happen there? Will he project Kin (positively or negatively) onto that individual?

[Guus]

I would argue that even if MinMax did realize what he was doing with the leash at that time, which I don't think he did, is very much an emotional reaction and not a vindictive one. That one action ruined everything he wanted so badly to be true. This isn't a case of "I'm telling you how much I love you while I hurt you" in an emotionally abusive context, it's in a context of genuine emotional distress. I'd guess if there are two things MM would genuinly regret in his life, even though it hasn't been all that clear, it's the moment that he couldn't help Forgath and the moment he made this horrible mistake with the leash. That doesn't make it right, but that doesn't make his emotions towards Kin any less real. Which is what we're seeing in this scene. MM isn't an emotionally abusive sociopath, he's a bumbling fool. Sometimes bumbling fools hurt others and do evil things because they are exactly that, fools. He alienated the one that he loved with his action, and the consequence he endured was very much real too. His angry response in this page is, I think, a combination of pain and regret more than it is a response of insult. It's the main reason I like this page so much: it makes MM real in all his flaws, and his emotions are given meaning outside of a situation where he just responds directly to a drama insert. It makes all his previous actions believable again.

I also think that he didn't grab the leash to control her, but because it was an easy thing to hold on to. Could someone with a Twitter account ask Hunt? I'm genuinly curious, and if it was actually vindictive I would love to know, because I'd have to re-assess the entire character of MM that I have in my head.

[Arch Lich Burns]

Not thinking does not excuse his actions. Forcing someone to do what you want is not indictive of a good person. Even if it was heat of the moment.

[Guus]

Literally no one said it does.

[Liquidmark]

Not thinking does not excuse his actions. Forcing someone to do what you want is not indictive of a good person. Even if it was heat of the moment.

He clearly didn't want to force Kin to do anything. If that were the case, he would have held onto the leash and made more demands/orders instead of giving it back when he realized what happened. Her leash thing is something very easy to forget about in the heat of the moment.

[thinkslogically]

Minmax grabbed Kin's leash by accident. He didn't mean to force her to do anything. I grant him a royal pardon for that.

I interpret that scene differently. When we look at the page in question, we see Minmax talking to Kin as she slithers away from him. Then he falls silent and looks down (panel 9), presumably noticing the trailing leash. In the next panel we see him not just holding the leash but pulling on it with both hands, while giving her a clear order. So he's not grabbing it mid-sentence like you would grab someone's arm or shoulder (which he could have easily done), he's very deliberately taking up the leash. Now he might not have thought about the magical properties of the leash at that point, but his whole reaction afterwards suggests that he did. If he had not thought about what the leash does, I would have expected him to drop the leash and back away; basically body language for "I invaded your personal space and touched you without consent, I didn't mean to." Instead he hands the leash to her; which comes off as somewhat arrogant, because the leash never was his and so isn't his to give. After that, all he ever says is that he's sorry; even when he gets a last opportunity to explain himself, he never says that he didn't think about the magic power of the leash, even though that would be his best defense for what he did and very important to mention that he didn't actually mean to force her to do anything.
Of course this is my subjective interpretation of what happened. You might see it differently. The comic doesn't state it clearly either way.

^ This. I read it as a desperate, stupid, selfish act, and he knew what he was about to do and did it anyway out of fear and frustration and maybe some stupid hope that if he could just make her listen then he'd be able to persuade her to stay and she'd forgive him for everything. I think it was only when he saw Kin's reaction to his grabbing the leash that he realised how much of an enormous, irreversible fuck-up he'd just made and how badly he'd betrayed her trust.

I do think it's dumb that destroying the necklace was enough to make her not care about him any more though. She still got mice and a badly-spelled banner...

[Davis8488]

I firmly believe the govlins could have gotten into the dungeon without MM's help. They are very capable little guys. As for fumbles being 'mute' I recall he did a battle cry at Kore, so he was getting better. Not as quickly but I think with time and pressure of everything going on he would have gotten back to his regular self without MM.

(Emphasis mine)

Pressure doesn't help a PTSD victim recover, but more oftern drives them into their shell.

[Krulle]

Not thinking does not excuse his actions. Forcing someone to do what you want is not indictive of a good person. Even if it was heat of the moment.

He clearly didn't want to force Kin to do anything. If that were the case, he would have held onto the leash and made more demands/orders instead of giving it back when he realized what happened. Her leash thing is something very easy to forget about in the heat of the moment.

That always was my thinking.
The mere thought of forcing her to listen to him by using the means Goblinslayer used to hurt her is revolting him, and he lets go as soon as he understands what he actually did.
This is a powerful gesture, which in the heat of the moment also gets ignored.

What he did was wrong, yes. But done out of affection and non-thinking (he also did not have the time to think it through. Or he may have decided to pee on the leash.)
This does not negate his error, but the moment he saw which error he made he passed the leash over.
Which also symbolizes, that MM is intending to give her her free will, and will do his best to protect it.

Love's hard for low brainers like MM.

[Morgaln]

Not thinking does not excuse his actions. Forcing someone to do what you want is not indictive of a good person. Even if it was heat of the moment.

He clearly didn't want to force Kin to do anything. If that were the case, he would have held onto the leash and made more demands/orders instead of giving it back when he realized what happened. Her leash thing is something very easy to forget about in the heat of the moment.

That always was my thinking.
The mere thought of forcing her to listen to him by using the means Goblinslayer used to hurt her is revolting him, and he lets go as soon as he understands what he actually did.
This is a powerful gesture, which in the heat of the moment also gets ignored.

What he did was wrong, yes. But done out of affection and non-thinking (he also did not have the time to think it through. Or he may have decided to pee on the leash.)
This does not negate his error, but the moment he saw which error he made he passed the leash over.
Which also symbolizes, that MM is intending to give her her free will, and will do his best to protect it.

Love's hard for low brainers like MM.

I definitely disagree on that part. He doesn't let go; letting go would mean dropping the leash immediately. Instead he deliberately sets her free, by handing her the leash. That even requires him to give her another order, or she couldn't take it out of his hand. That is a powerful gesture, but it is the gesture of a master to their servant, not of an equal to another. "I am letting you go," as opposed to "I have no power over you."
I do agree that he was in an extreme emotional situation and wasn't thinking rationally, but I also believe that he knew full well what the leash does and that he did try to force Kin to listen. We also know from several other situations in the Maze of Many that he can think very quickly and come up with clever solutions to problems if necessary, so saying he's too dumb to realize what he was doing doesn't hold with me.