april -23 2013 Tight Leash

[LAYF]

-SNIP- At what level does a character stop gaining experience from CR 3 encounters? I believe it's 8 levels out, -SNIP-

The answer is level 10.


But we cannot be sure that CR 3 is the toughes thing in the maze... many traps and alts seems to me to be far above CR 3.

[catchesafish]

-SNIP- At what level does a character stop gaining experience from CR 3 encounters? I believe it's 8 levels out, -SNIP-

The answer is level 10.


But we cannot be sure that CR 3 is the toughes thing in the maze... many traps and alts seems to me to be far above CR 3.

I beg to differ. Some of the alts may have seemingly overpowered items and/or abilities; but those are all factors of their universe or "minmax" specific things. Where minmax is concerned, I'm thinking he's able to break some rules, but the boundary of experience would still prevent him from getting too out of control. In this case, I would say that level 10 is sufficient. But, of course, it's all just conjecture until Thunt decides to spill the beans.

[SirButcher]

Guys, you (who says they [or MM] simply should go back for the key next to the chest) forget one simple thing - the upside-down forest, which, most likely still burning - so now it must be a huge block of super-fast growing tree. And MM not only have to break throught (and he used all of his rages) but he has to climb up that high wall as well. I dont think that is possible...

Edit:

That wall: http://www.goblinscomic.com/04202012/

[Motorcycle]

to cast spells a cleric must be in possession of his god's holy symbol. So it means that it has to be a 3D object. Not merely a drawing.

[LooksAndSmiles]

I gotta say, I like the storytelling that goes on here. Well, not the apparent situation, but... yeah. Intensity to stir things up!

[sunphoenix]

At what level does a character stop gaining experience from CR 3 encounters? I believe it's 8 levels out, which would make Psymax at most 11th level. The Dungeon itself (I believe) was stated to be low level overall. So, assuming Psymax has finally reached 11th level after 817 "free" runs of the maze, he's had plenty of time to research his "Oblivion" talent and at least 8 chances to roll successfully in learning it. By giving up different things (minmaxing his chances to succeed), he's managed to get the insane DC his DM required him to get. Maybe it took him 817 times to roll the Natural 20 his version of Herbert required to learn how to destroy reality? The possibilities are not endless, but definitely many.

This also means that he's Just barely outside of the XP gap for FMK, so they won't gain more than 1 level by defeating him. Instead, they'll gain "something equally cool" to reflect their defeat of a CR 8 levels outside their own.

NERD HAT on Again...

Hmmm.. that Is possible.. but not consistent with the level of power that Psimax has shown. Though a simple extrapolation that you have not considered is the Modifying Encounter Levels. If the situations presented as Psimax grinds his way through the MoM... the EL of some of those encounters could be as high as +2EL for up to CR 5 encounters even against a party of CR3's - depending upon how capable the various alternate reality FMK Groups turn out to be. This could allow Psimax to grind his way up to as high as 12th level where it tops out and no situational difficulty can produce any experience from fighting only CR 3 foes.

[Sockmonkey]

PsionMax wouldn't be able to defend himself, as "MinMax is the only thing in existence that can make the sword move".

You're not the first person to think something like that but that's not how the sword works. The sword can only be moved by MinMax, making it the perfect tool to block with. Nobody striking against the sword can push it out of the way.

However, when MinMax strikes with the sword, it behaves just like a normal sword and it's totally dependent on his own individual strength whether or not he can penetrate someone's defense. If Oblivious completely ignored all forces other then the one that was applied by MinMax, it would be the most overpowered, unstoppable force, out there. Like a Juggernaut, it would break through anything, allowing MinMax to bulldoze walls in a single strike.

For this to be the case, the rule would have to be that it's only unmovable relative to MM. Otherwise there is no differenc between MM blocking and striking since motion is relative.
Yes, I know your first thought is going to be "Einstien's rule don't apply in a fantasy world!" but consider the following. Imagine that MM is on a moving wagon and is blocking when the wagon crashes through some branches which are blocked/cut by oblivious.
The sword is moving relative to the environment and it's powers would still come into play yes? Now if those branches would still be blocked but MM can't chop through moutains by waving the sword he could still do the super chop as long as the blade is held motionless relative to his body.

[SongCoyote]

I know many people have already expressed this but sometimes one must add one's voice to the throng.

I was trying to figure out how to say it effectively and not quite getting there until I saw the third comment on this thread (by Tarnagh) and realized that I agree with it.

I hate PsyMax even more than I hated that utter waste of "flesh", Goblin Slayer. PsyMax knows what the leash is and what it means to Kin, and he's not stopping or even really pausing to see if she'll give him the information without using it. He's also not crazy-bonkers the way Goblin Slayer is/was - he's consciously making the choice to violate Kin while cognizant of the consequences.

That makes him vile, despicable, and deserving of death.

All that said: for me, one of the hallmarks of a great story is when I find myself pissed off at the author for doing certain things to the characters. This is one of those times, and as horrible as I find what PsyMax is doing I applaud Thunt for writing a character that I want to protect as well as one I want dead. DEAD, I tell you!

Light and laughter,
SongCoyote

[gamecreator]

There were four keys for that chest.

We don't know how other three looked.

Actually, went and rechecked all the panels with the tower keys. The one in the chest (intelligence) has EXACTLY matching head with the "one that winks"

See? That's what I said back in March.

[Master TMO]

Without the keys, victory or escape will be really difficult. I would say that even if FMK kept that earlier key, it was in the backpack MinMax never carried. They could remember this chain of events by destroying their own counter, but that's never been mentioned in their presence. We only know about it because PsiMax felt the need to explain it to his Kin when he killed her again. Even Oblivioning PsiMax won't bring the keys back. I don't know if he has the power to recreate them, but he probably doesn't have the desire to. It does look like he could create a portal through the glass though, which would negate the need for a key and the knowledge of the riddle in the Tower Room that they don't have. All that has to happen is that he decides not to kill the two he has helpless in front of him, and they have to kill or otherwise bypass him.

[Alarikun]

According to the 3.5 SRD, a Cleric does not need a Holy Symbol, except for using Turn/Rebuke Undead. I believe that a few specific spells require the "Divine Focus", which is often, but not always his Holy Symbol.

So.... he can still cast spells, most likely. Though I recall Thunt saying that this is based on D&D 3.0... which could be different.

[YggazTheFool]

PsiMax really does like exploding things.

Then again so would I, given the chance.

Just to be on the other side of the argument, I'm going to guess that PsiMax is going to try carrot instead of stick on the leash this time.

*sploooosh goes the leash*
PsiMax: "See, doing as I tell you to do is the preferable choice for all."
*Kin staring dumbly"
PsiMax: "I will still *sploosh* your head if you fail to co-operate. Answer everything I ask and I will have you compensated."

[ForgetsOldName]

We've had much discussion about the "everybody loses" scenario and it's not clear what happens if it does occur. I'm sure Psimax knows also. Looking back on the other eyeball key, I think it has to come into play. This cannot be a coincidence. Not sure how the maze was supposed to play out though. Maybe all three keys are the wrong key and they close the mouth up and the winners have to go back down the tower and backtrack until they get the "real" key.

[ForgetsOldName]

I just reread the comic and I have a question about cursed clothing. What happens if you just take it off? Does it refuse to come off, or is the bad effect invoked? If you cut it will it break knives, etc?

I think you can guess what I expect to happen in the next strip.

[Krulle]

There were four keys for that chest.

Actually, went and rechecked all the panels with the tower keys. The one in the chest (intelligence) has EXACTLY matching head with the "one that winks"
http://www.goblinscomic.com/03092013/

That is in no way a coincidence - what are the odds that

a) Thunt simply took the old picture as reference without intending to make it the same key and without thinking about that it might be mistaken by readers as the same one,

or b) Thunt drawing the key exactly the same way on purpose because that's precisely what they are, the same keys?

Okay, I'll throw in c): Thunt drawing the keys with the same head to mislead some readers in a very subtle way, now I wouldn't put that beyond him.

Still, I always wondered what that unopened bottom compartment of the chest was about. Okay, it's a theory, but one that is supported by Thunt's drawing, and he does not make any mistakes like an unexplainedly shut lock on a treasure chest. In fact, he rarely ever makes any mistakes at all, safe for some colouring stuff maybe, but NEVER on the story side.

From my point of view, the keys are not the same.
The keybit seems to be different. Granted, the chest version is not high resolution visible, but the keybit seems to have only 2 dips, and seems to be symmetrical keyhandle side to lowest part, while the Key that Winks does not have a symmetrical keybit and three dips.
Also, the yellow ribbon seems to be placed lower in the intelligence attribute shield key than on the Key that Winks.

[SamWiser]

I know many people have already expressed this but sometimes one must add one's voice to the throng.

I was trying to figure out how to say it effectively and not quite getting there until I saw the third comment on this thread (by Tarnagh) and realized that I agree with it.

I hate PsyMax even more than I hated that utter waste of "flesh", Goblin Slayer. PsyMax knows what the leash is and what it means to Kin, and he's not stopping or even really pausing to see if she'll give him the information without using it. He's also not crazy-bonkers the way Goblin Slayer is/was - he's consciously making the choice to violate Kin while cognizant of the consequences.

That makes him vile, despicable, and deserving of death.

All that said: for me, one of the hallmarks of a great story is when I find myself pissed off at the author for doing certain things to the characters. This is one of those times, and as horrible as I find what PsyMax is doing I applaud Thunt for writing a character that I want to protect as well as one I want dead. DEAD, I tell you!

Light and laughter,
SongCoyote

I think that Goblinslayer is just as bad if not worse than Psimax. It is true that Psimax knows what the collar means to Kin, but so did the Goblinslayer. He had some sick perversion with controlling Kin, and others. The main reason that I still think that Goblinslayer is worse than Psimax, is permanence. Nothing Psimax has done will last. The alts (well, most of them) will come back to life, and weapons can be replaced. Psimax is using the leash, but Goblinslayer is the one that put it on her. Psimax isn't doing it for pleasure, but because he has no other choice. Not that I am standing up for Psimax, I think that he deserves any and all swear words that you can throw at him, but once this adventure is over, it will be over, and we can forget about Psimax. Goblinslayer dealt torture that can never be forgotten, and can never be reversed. Remember, MONSTER? That will never go away.

[Krulle]

It also adds to the quality of the story telling that PsiMax does use the collar to his ends.
He uses all other means availavle to him, without moral regrets.
The storytelling would be bad if he knew about the effects of the collar (how does he got to know about it, since "our" Kin is one of very few where I could see one?) and would not use it.
Let's see if the magic of love is stronger than the magic of the collar...
I thin Kin already "sees" Minmax and would therefore try to resist the power of the collar more than usual. And the trueseeing might be what she needs for this.

[predator]

Psimax is the ultimate villain. He is cold, calculating and to the point. Which defines the best type of villain.
The creepy psion thing, and the "I am too intelligent to relate to human emotion" or "I know your true desires" type of psychopaths, are the most bad-ass and horrifying opponents.
I simply loooove psymax, he should have been the main antagonist of the entire story!
If he were to play a anti-hero, i could really enjoy that (think of the possibilites).
Yet, he is going to die.
He gets a Ironic death. His greatest strenght: Intelligence,... is also his greatest weakness, and it will most definitly kill him.
He achieves his goals by getting to know, yet knowing to much will buy the heroes precious time in saving themselves.
Even now he tries to understand the variables of the why's and how's of how they acquired the keys, when he should just kill Forgath and kin both and finish his oblivion scheme.

Storywise, this point is probably the darkest moment for the heroes, or maybe after some torture time with kin, but after that hey shall triumph.
Which suddenly makes me think. Kin is now obliged to tell the truth, wat if she spills something (a dark secret, perhaps?) that she dont want to say but forgath hears about...
Making Forgath her enemy, while Minmax remains oblivious to the whole plot. It could be a nice twist, that might continue and drive their change once they exit the dungeon.

[Linkcharge]

What I wanted to say is that PsionMax can't just simply "splishk" (explode in thin air) the oblivious sword, as he did to Forgath's mace, to the keys, and even to the heads of his' Forgath and Kim comrades. As splishing things and moving them around with his psionic powers may be main way he is able to defend himself, he would be defenseless against oblivious, considering he does not have a sword or a shield to physically block a direct hit, and all his efforts to "psionic block" the attack would be null to oblivious. He can't splishk or "psionically" move around a thing that does not exist

I think this may be correct. PsyMax relies so heavily on his psionic abilities that he doesn't even appear to have any weapons or armor of any kind. If his abilities are useless, this may well give our gang an edge: Surprise Decapitation! Perhaps with a last moment "Impossible" to top it off.

Incidentally, has anyone yet noted that PsyMax basically confirmed the theory that the reason why FMK are the lousiest group in the Maze is because they intentionally reset every time one of them dies? I know that someone floated that theory previously and it seems to me like PsyMax is implying that this is what they've done previously, since he clearly expected them to do it again. Sorry if I missed anyone already pointing this out.

[Orzahn]

Psymaz will dissolve the jaws-hole than Minmax jumped down through, then He'll Levitate Minmax up to his level to talk to him, Minmax, Kin or Forgath will somehow take advantage of something Psymax has overlooked and kill him or knock him down the whole to face all the other alts. Kin will either figure out that all they have to do is "Wink" at the little hole under the door, or Minmax will just wink at Kin when he says something like "It's ok, we'll just try again next time and again till we get it right" or something, then the door will open....
Or maybe something even better will happen and Psymax will decide that they're more trouble than they're worth, destroy Kins collar and the door and force them out of the maze.
Maybe.

minmax traded in his ability to wink.. so no winking on his side.

[Corruptuser]

He is unravelling the leash instead of the faster method of simply grabbing Kin's arm.

I just hope our MM does indeed get to kill Psimax twice...

[kirkspencer]

This talk of resetting the maze brought me to a jarring halt, as I suddenly realized someone has already escaped it.

Walter was banished, sent home. If the maze resets, will he be yanked back into it? From various descriptions I think not, and that introduces another bit of instability.

Or I could be all wet. (grin)

[zennyrpg]

From my point of view, the keys are not the same.
The keybit seems to be different. Granted, the chest version is not high resolution visible, but the keybit seems to have only 2 dips, and seems to be symmetrical keyhandle side to lowest part, while the Key that Winks does not have a symmetrical keybit and three dips.
Also, the yellow ribbon seems to be placed lower in the intelligence attribute shield key than on the Key that Winks.

Its hard to tell. They look pretty close to me. Here are the best pages I could find: new and old.

[DieselJester]

Hello everyone. I've been lurking awhile and finally registered to post here.

I'm beginning to suspect the person who says "Hey Names, remember me?" is Psimax. Dunno why...

Nah... I'm sure that will be Minmax. Though that seems to be at that point a unfair fight considering the Goblin's predicament and injuries at that point. Though... I'm sure if Kin is with Minmax at that point she will not have forgotten the Goblins who tried to help her escape... and then we'll see "When Love turns to rage"... of course Kore will kill Forgath when he arrives during the ensuing argument... No idea how that will turn out.

I don't think so in this instance. I was thinking about that today and I dove back through the archives to find these specific comics:

The Goblins crossing the bridge w/ a sudden green effect in front of them:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/01212011-2/

I'm guessing that it has something to do with the Green Klik as we've seen here as the Green Kilk/Dies Horribly's Klik Arm is the only thing to date that we've seen use the green effect (and the different colored effects seem to be tied to specific characters):
http://www.goblinscomic.com/12142012/

So the one that shows up suddenly on the bridge to say "Hi, Remember Me?" cannot be MinMax as all of his special effects are in purple like here when he grabbed the keys:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/03092013/

[FleesFromTrees]

I think it's assumed to be green, as it would be done using the jade teapot.
That being the only explanation for MinMax and Forgath showing up there.

So the effect won't be coming from a character, but the teapot itself. (Which is green)