30 April 2013: Altsplanation 5 - Reality 98

[Elvors]

On torturing bastards... yes, it can put a smile on your face.
Until you have seen how that works out in reality. It's one of the ideas that work WAAAY better in one's head than in reality.
GS would be a case in point. He's human - he has friends, he likes to socialize. Torturing him will reveal his basically human nature again; the human side of the torturer will scream at him to stop, because... well he's a bastard but it can't stand the sheer suffering.
And that's the point at which the torturer has a choice. He can stop and get away with horrible memories. Or he can continue, but must somehow silence his humanity.

In don't care too much about Nietzsche's work, but this quote is really on spot here:
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

[CelineSSauve]

Well... dark, yet I read it with a smile growing on my face, there is just something about torturing bastards that deserve it that turns a completelly inhuman situation into perfectly acceptable...

I am pretty sure there would be worst ways to kill someone though, I always sort of dreamed on deboning a human's hand while the person is still alive an awake...

*blinks and slowly backs away*

The Kin images were just the appetizer.

I don't know... If that was the case, then I would have to lean towards him having lost his humanity and is going after GoblinSlayer.
If he got "justice" for Kin first, because they Saw each other, or at least he cared deeply for her, and added Forgath because he felt GS needed "interest," then I still think he's gone after Kin.


As for the degree of detail, yes, it's not as bad as I've read and nowhere near some of the scenes on the earlier seasons of Dexter, but still, I am still grateful for the name-searching for bringing a bit of light into it.

[Reads_Forums]

Agree with Elvors point above, the people cheering on torture by "the good guy" seriously makes me question their moral compass. Suppose in a similar reality, Saral Caine was alive, caught this minimax and tortured him for eternity in revenge?

Simply labeling one good and one bad when they commit the same actions for the same motivation doesn't work.

Poetic justice isn't the same as justice, look at the Iranian system where someone who blinded another was sentenced to being blinded, another sentenced to paralysis, labelling yourselves the good guys and thinking that justifies any actions you wish to commit as "justice" is already way down the slope of evil, you just will never see it. Most people considered evil by history never considered themselves evil and that there was justification for their actions.

[Liesmith]

Don't judge a person's moral compass by the fiction they enjoy. Most folks here understand the difference between grimdark heroic vengeance, and actual, real-world torture.

[Elvors]

I'm not questioning their moral compass. I'm questioning their self-image - whether they'd still find it a Good Thing if the situation arose in reality.
The usual outcome of such situtions is that 95% have a problem with actually carrying it through. And you can't predict who's going to be in the 5% group.

The moral compass actually says it is okay to apply a mirror punishment. Legal systems do not apply that principle because it's hard to be 100% sure about the motives or even about the facts (or about the honesty of the judge), because mirror punishment systems invite abuse of the legal system, and because they do very little to actually reduce the crime level.
Here for the comic, all parties know full well that GS has fully deserved what he got, so we have a relief from reality and can relish in horrible reveng rightfully served. It's not applicable to reality, but hey - all fiction is a form of escape from reality ;-)

[LAYF]

I'm not questioning their moral compass. I'm questioning their self-image - whether they'd still find it a Good Thing if the situation arose in reality.
The usual outcome of such situtions is that 95% have a problem with actually carrying it through. And you can't predict who's going to be in the 5% group.

sadly you'r number is wrong...werry wrong indeed.... try that 65% would go as fare as risking killing the other, and thats when even having nothing against him...

Milgram experiment

[Reads_Forums]

I'm not questioning their moral compass. I'm questioning their self-image - whether they'd still find it a Good Thing if the situation arose in reality.
The usual outcome of such situtions is that 95% have a problem with actually carrying it through. And you can't predict who's going to be in the 5% group.

The moral compass actually says it is okay to apply a mirror punishment. Legal systems do not apply that principle because it's hard to be 100% sure about the motives or even about the facts (or about the honesty of the judge), because mirror punishment systems invite abuse of the legal system, and because they do very little to actually reduce the crime level.
Here for the comic, all parties know full well that GS has fully deserved what he got, so we have a relief from reality and can relish in horrible reveng rightfully served. It's not applicable to reality, but hey - all fiction is a form of escape from reality ;-)

And if a mirror character chose to do to this minimax in revenge for HIS actions that would be cool? If someone who objected to this minmax's actions and subjected him to eternal torture, they would be as justified as him and would argue that this minimax deserved what he got. That would make things interesting reading, everyone in his world falling one by one into hatred, revenge and torture one by one... A pretty grim world.

I think the idea that torture by the villain is heinous and torture by the hero is something to applaud is somewhat a false and shallow concept, suitable for pulp fiction for people get off on that sort of thing but raising the issue of the moral ambiguity of a hero torturing for his own personal satisfaction leads to a deeper and darker story.

[Veya]

GS would be a case in point. He's human - he has friends, he likes to socialize.

Did he really? the only person who he seemed to care about was Sarral Caine(in fact, the moment of grief when found Sarral's body is pratically the only humanizing moment he got, I felt genuinelly bad for GS for a moment), who was about to as bad if not worse, other than that, he just acted friendly to the barkeeper guy, and had the two whores hanging on him.

Well... dark, yet I read it with a smile growing on my face, there is just something about torturing bastards that deserve it that turns a completelly inhuman situation into perfectly acceptable...

I am pretty sure there would be worst ways to kill someone though, I always sort of dreamed on deboning a human's hand while the person is still alive an awake...

*blinks and slowly backs away*

Don't look at me like that, I've had times in which I casually discussed torture methods with friends, just out of curiosity, doesn't mean I'd really do it.

I'm not questioning their moral compass. I'm questioning their self-image - whether they'd still find it a Good Thing if the situation arose in reality.

First of, I never said to consider myself a "good" person, I decided quite a while ago the concepts of good and evil are but concepts created by society based on current opnion.

As for, "would I think it is right in real life?", it isn't that I think it is right or wrong, I wouldn't pursue it myself, but if it happened, I sure as hell wouldn't mind it, could even get a laugh out of it or be annoyed about it, depending who it was, but eh.

[SamWiser]

I wouldn't say that Saral Caine was worse that GS. At least once we see him about to go to the aid of somebody that he thought was in trouble. In that case, it was the GAP, so it would have been horrible if GS hadn't have stopped him, but still, he tried to help somebody. He probably did a lot of horrible things to, but it was GS that seemed to take pleasure in torture. Saral Caine seemed to be along for the ride.

[Glemp]

I wouldn't say that Saral Caine was worse that GS. At least once we see him about to go to the aid of somebody that he thought was in trouble. In that case, it was the GAP, so it would have been horrible if GS hadn't have stopped him, but still, he tried to help somebody. He probably did a lot of horrible things to, but it was GS that seemed to take pleasure in torture. Saral Caine seemed to be along for the ride.

He did kill a paladin to steal the Axe.

[SamWiser]

I never said that Saral Caine was good, just not as bad as GS. Saral seemed to have some sort of a good side.

[Reads_Forums]

I wouldn't say that Saral Caine was worse that GS. At least once we see him about to go to the aid of somebody that he thought was in trouble. In that case, it was the GAP, so it would have been horrible if GS hadn't have stopped him, but still, he tried to help somebody. He probably did a lot of horrible things to, but it was GS that seemed to take pleasure in torture. Saral Caine seemed to be along for the ride.

He did kill a paladin to steal the Axe.

We don't know the exact circumstances, a zealot of a paladin might attack a neutral (or even good) character who would be fully justified in defending themselves without auto clicking to evil. I don't recall seeing any overtly evil acts from Saral although hanging around GS and turning a blind eye to his shenanigans probably means he isn't neutral

[Glemp]

We don't know the exact circumstances, a zealot of a paladin might attack a neutral (or even good) character who would be fully justified in defending themselves without auto clicking to evil.

Oh yes we do. The previous wielder was killed (in quite an evil manner, I'll add) because she uncovered a plot by Caine and GS to kill Brassmoon's sheriff. It's in Thunt's Axe of Prissan pages, though I can't find that one just now...

EDIT: Ah-ha! http://www.goblinscomic.com/comics/20101224.jpg

[Orga the Strange]

I wouldn't say that Saral Caine was worse that GS. At least once we see him about to go to the aid of somebody that he thought was in trouble. In that case, it was the GAP, so it would have been horrible if GS hadn't have stopped him, but still, he tried to help somebody. He probably did a lot of horrible things to, but it was GS that seemed to take pleasure in torture. Saral Caine seemed to be along for the ride.

He did kill a paladin to steal the Axe.

We don't know the exact circumstances, a zealot of a paladin might attack a neutral (or even good) character who would be fully justified in defending themselves without auto clicking to evil. I don't recall seeing any overtly evil acts from Saral although hanging around GS and turning a blind eye to his shenanigans probably means he isn't neutral

Well, apparently after getting a hold of the axe he didn't do a single good act for nearly a year. Even neutral people occasionally do good things. This is coming from this page
http://www.goblinscomic.com/08122007/
And the one immediately following it, while Big Ears doesn't actually say a year, I don't think the words "You have no idea how close you came to destroying the world" are appropriate for someone who's only had the axe for like, three weeks.

[BuildsLegos]

He probably did a few good deeds, but they're over-shadowed by the bad he did under Dellyn's influence.

[willpell]

EDIT: Ah-ha! http://www.goblinscomic.com/comics/20101224.jpg

Whoa! Is this like a secret page? Why have I never seen it?

(Also I now hope that Whitewing shows up in the storyline at some point.)

He probably did a few good deeds, but they're over-shadowed by the bad he did under Dellyn's influence.

I don't really think Dellyn gets the credit; Saral Caine in and of himself seems to be just as evil, if in a less ambitious fashion. But then I see people have already been discussing that, and realize that I have no real evidence for my position so nevermind.

Don't judge a person's moral compass by the fiction they enjoy. Most folks here understand the difference between grimdark heroic vengeance, and actual, real-world torture.

Hrrm....

Torturing him will reveal his basically human nature again; the human side of the torturer will scream at him to stop, because... well he's a bastard but it can't stand the sheer suffering.
And that's the point at which the torturer has a choice. He can stop and get away with horrible memories. Or he can continue, but must somehow silence his humanity.

The knowledge that the person you're torturing had no problem torturing someone else (granted a someone that only looked human from the waist up, but still) ought to go a fairly long way towards counterbalancing there....

[LordsBreed]

http://www.goblinscomic.com/04302013/

...That was terrifying. And delicious, and well written. But terrifying.

► Show Spoiler

I do wonder how MM did GS' wooden parts, though. Tenon saws? Spokeshaves? More Dragon Lung? Actually...I don't want to know.

But how'd MM stop GS from using his super wood powers? He says that he was burned, so I'm assuming he still has them - he should be able to reshape his bound hand around and out of the rope.

It wasn't terrifying in the slightest. o.O

[CelineSSauve]

Ah-ha! http://www.goblinscomic.com/comics/20101224.jpg

See!? Whitewind survived!

[Glemp]

Ah-ha! http://www.goblinscomic.com/comics/20101224.jpg

See!? Whitewind survived!

Whitewind...will live.

[Alecat]

Whoa, cool page Glemp! I don't remember seeing it in the archives. Do you know of any other "hidden" pages like that?

[Glemp]

Whoa, cool page Glemp! I don't remember seeing it in the archives. Do you know of any other "hidden" pages like that?

The Axe of Prissan timeline. Hello Marnath.

And here is a coloured version of the Whitewing page. There's just one little problem...

[Elvors]

I'm not questioning their moral compass. I'm questioning their self-image - whether they'd still find it a Good Thing if the situation arose in reality.
The usual outcome of such situtions is that 95% have a problem with actually carrying it through. And you can't predict who's going to be in the 5% group.

sadly you'r number is wrong...werry wrong indeed.... try that 65% would go as fare as risking killing the other, and thats when even having nothing against him...

Milgram experiment

Look closer: Most would have stopped on their own. They needed to be goaded ahead by the perceived authority figure.

[Elvors]

GS would be a case in point. He's human - he has friends, he likes to socialize.

Did he really? the only person who he seemed to care about was Sarral Caine(in fact, the moment of grief when found Sarral's body is pratically the only humanizing moment he got, I felt genuinelly bad for GS for a moment), who was about to as bad if not worse, other than that, he just acted friendly to the barkeeper guy, and had the two whores hanging on him.

Oh, he socialized pretty well with MinMax, basked in his admiration.
And GS was genuinely weary of doing politics and wanted to go back to the careless days of adventuring without having to meddle and scheme and whatnot.
That's quite a bunch of very human reactions.

GS' one big weakness is that he doesn't feel the pain of others like most people do.
From his perspective, one moment he's talking about the last time he had a great time with Kin, just like somebody might talk about the last fishing trip or shooting at empty beer cans. Next moment, MM punches him, and as far as GS can see, it's merely because MM doesn't understand fun. Ah well, GS knows how to deal with that kind of behaviour: "That's the biggest mistake you made in your life!" (And, sadly, no buddy for adventuring.)

GS is fully human. He just has zero empathy, that's all and just enough to make him one of the worst monsters in the comic.

[CelineSSauve]

GS' one big weakness is that he doesn't feel the pain of others like most people do.
<snip>
GS is fully human. He just has zero empathy, that's all and just enough to make him one of the worst monsters in the comic.

Well, that's the thing... GoblinSlayer might have empathy, he might not even be a Sociopath/Psychopath (they are exactly the same thing, but even they sometimes prefer one term over the other). You see... In order to quality, you have to agree that the target of that lack of Empathy is a "Person".

In times of War, the Military makes the Enemy seem as un-Human as possible. To GoblinSlayer, Monsters are not People. Thus, he does have Empathy, for "proper" Races.

► Show Spoiler

I actually played a similar mindset in a Cleric of Pelor. He had been a Slave of Orcs who was freed around when he'd gone into full Neutral Evil survival mode (overjoyed when Orcs were killed by diseases his insane CON let him survive, not thinking twice about stealing from other Slaves and so on), and eventually learnt that true Strength was found in defending the weak from those who would exploit them. He'd found an injured Orc youth and while his past-experiences lead him to want to kill it on sight so that it wouldn't grow up to be a fully-grown Orc, his recent lessons told him that it was still young. So he healed it... And as soon as it was strong enough, it stabbed him in the eye.

Bendek's mentor was able to save his eye, but he left the Scar as a lesson to his student that just because he had changed, it didn't mean tht world had.

So while Bendek didn't go out of his way to kill members of the non-Civilized Races, he did give the Kobold in the Party a few very curt warnings about what would happen if he ever caught it actually eating a Gnome, and gave any Monster one chance to prove him right about them before he enacted the Will of Pelor.

See? All a matter of perspective, really.

[Elvors]

Dehumanizing people isn't just a prelude to war, it's also a prelude to genocide.

I still think it's zero empathy, regardless of race or friendship status.
His obsession with monsters seems isn't that specific; after all, he's attacking MinMax with intent to kill (instead of pursuing a friendly brawl), and the civilians around him have horrible fear of him as their reactions to the duel show.

Fully agreeing otherwise, including semi-related