May 03rd, 2013 Out of Hell

[Pillbug]

The thing with character death is that it absolutely can be used to great dramatic effect, but if too many characters die it starts getting harder and harder to care about the ones who are left. Why bother getting attached to anyone when every character you do care about gets messily killed for some quick drama? Yeah, we get it, Psimax is super ruthless and stuff; it's a point that's been made several times. Chief foreshadowed his own death way back in Brassmoon. Klik was a game-breaker. Kin is character development for other people? She doesn't actually have her own story?

I'm calling Big Ears as the next death.

[SamWiser]

No, Big Ears can't be the next death, and I'm going to tell you why. If Thunt decides to kill Big Ears then I will come to his house. I won't hurt him. I won't yell or scream or anything like that. I will simply decide to live in his house. He won't be able to get rid of me. I won't leave if he threatens me, and if he has me arrested I will break out of jail and sneak back in. When I am in his house I will play annoying songs on my ipod just loud enough so that he can hear it, but not loud enough that he knows what song is playing. I will always eat the last piece of cake, pizza, and whatever other food items he has, and I will walk around sighing loudly and being passive aggressive. I will continue to do these things until he is driven mad, or brings Big Ears back to life. That is why he will not kill Big Ears.

[willpell]

No, Big Ears can't be the next death, and I'm going to tell you why. If Thunt decides to kill Big Ears then I will come to his house. I won't hurt him. I won't yell or scream or anything like that. I will simply decide to live in his house. He won't be able to get rid of me. I won't leave if he threatens me, and if he has me arrested I will break out of jail and sneak back in. When I am in his house I will play annoying songs on my ipod just loud enough so that he can hear it, but not loud enough that he knows what song is playing. I will always eat the last piece of cake, pizza, and whatever other food items he has, and I will walk around sighing loudly and being passive aggressive. I will continue to do these things until he is driven mad, or brings Big Ears back to life. That is why he will not kill Big Ears.

I'm Will Pell, and I approve this message.

[Skulexander]

I like how this thread turned into a discussion about literary history and writing methods.

[Glemp]

The thing with character death is that it absolutely can be used to great dramatic effect, but if too many characters die it starts getting harder and harder to care about the ones who are left. Why bother getting attached to anyone when every character you do care about gets messily killed for some quick drama? Yeah, we get it, Psimax is super ruthless and stuff; it's a point that's been made several times. Chief foreshadowed his own death way back in Brassmoon. Klik was a game-breaker. Kin is character development for other people? She doesn't actually have her own story?

I'm calling Big Ears as the next death.

To date, the only death I've felt sad about was Chief's, because his death couldn't be reduced to a story goal. Klik's was predicted on the old forums as a game breaker, so I expected it. Kin...if she dies, then all she is, all her time with FM, were nothing more than a tool to change MM's personality. She joined them in Brassmoon, MM gave her a birthday, they had character development, and then she died. That'll be it.
Chief died because of his personality as self-sacrificing and insecurity - the only goal I can think of is to make the GAP fight Kore, which would have happened anyway, or to change the other members, particularly Complains. But he didn't feel like a 'role' - he wasn't inserted to perform a task and then leave. He- sigh. I can't really explain this better. Since I discovered TV Trope, I've been able to dismantle most works into storylines and plot devices, and Chief was the only major death so far that I felt wasn't one.

[M0rtimer]

Damn... Personally, I'm really hoping what I originally thought this was all going to end up in- That they're too much of a nuisance for Psimax for him to actually successfully accomplish his goal in time- And hence, going to allow them to win- Simply to remove them from the maze so that in it's next iteration he could finish his project undisturbed.

...Though, at this point it wouldn't make sense for Kin to come back in such a way- If at all- Since if that would be his goal, he would probably just throw Forgath on the circle and ending it there. Well, unless the "winner" has to enter the circle willingly. But all of the theories in that direction have some kind of logical fallacy... So I guess we'll just wait to see what Thunt has came up with.

One thing I could guess which would make this work... Is that they successfully kill psymax, but then choose NOT to win- Simply to resurrect Kin and take their chances with a new run. At which point psymax would allow them to win simply to get rid of them. Of course that's assuming Kin lives... Which I hope so, and think so as well. Not only because of the "I see you" spoiler Thunt has posted in the past...

[DrinksTooMuchCoffee]

Wonder what happens if you use the Teapot inside the Maze without entering the winners circle.

And let this serve as a lesson not to become emotionally attached to your Interactive Dungeon Locator System! *sniff*

[zennyrpg]

The thing with character death is that it absolutely can be used to great dramatic effect, but if too many characters die it starts getting harder and harder to care about the ones who are left. Why bother getting attached to anyone when every character you do care about gets messily killed for some quick drama? Yeah, we get it, Psimax is super ruthless and stuff; it's a point that's been made several times. Chief foreshadowed his own death way back in Brassmoon. Klik was a game-breaker. Kin is character development for other people? She doesn't actually have her own story?

I'm calling Big Ears as the next death.

I have to agree. Too many deaths kills the drama, too few and its hard to build drama. Kin is one of my favorite characters, but I felt numb reading this page. I personally prefer stories where happiness is possible but rare. When it looks like happiness is impossible, why try?

I'm not saying anything against the comic- all literature walks this balance one way or the other. It's personal preference on what kind of stories you prefer.

I do like that good guys don't all have plot armor. Lots (100s?) of "bad" guys have been killed, so I don't mind seeing a few good guys go down too.

[Pillbug]

To date, the only death I've felt sad about was Chief's, because his death couldn't be reduced to a story goal. Klik's was predicted on the old forums as a game breaker, so I expected it. Kin...if she dies, then all she is, all her time with FM, were nothing more than a tool to change MM's personality. She joined them in Brassmoon, MM gave her a birthday, they had character development, and then she died. That'll be it.

That's why her death(still theoretical but most probable) bothers me so much. I did feel for the other deaths, even with TvTropes prepping me, because even though they were plot points I was still invested. "Kin dying" isn't even the issue I have. It's this death, in this way, that makes all of it feel hollow. If the ultimate reason for her presence was to alter MM's outlook, then there was no point in developing her with the depth she's been given except to make it more sad when she dies, which I feel is kind of cheap.

There is realism to it. Sometimes people have horrible lives and then they die in awful ways. That happens. Obviously my opinion is just an opinion, but those aren't the kind of stories I like to read. I don't want to opt out now because there's still the chance that she'll either live or fulfill some greater purpose in dying, but... again. feelings, man.

[willpell]

There is realism to it. Sometimes people have horrible lives and then they die in awful ways. That happens. Obviously my opinion is just an opinion, but those aren't the kind of stories I like to read.

+1.

[YardMeat]

That's why her death(still theoretical but most probable) bothers me so much. I did feel for the other deaths, even with TvTropes prepping me, because even though they were plot points I was still invested. "Kin dying" isn't even the issue I have. It's this death, in this way, that makes all of it feel hollow. If the ultimate reason for her presence was to alter MM's outlook, then there was no point in developing her with the depth she's been given except to make it more sad when she dies, which I feel is kind of cheap.

If she dies and if she never comes back, I would agree. It seems like her only purpose would have been to add drama to MM's character. I don't think that is likely, however, for two main reasons that have already been discussed:

1) Right after Psimax attacked her, the next Goblins entry was a story that involved an alt Minmax considering what would happen if he used the jade teapot to pursue the dead.
2) When Thunt proposed, he quoted a yet-to-be-written comic with the words, "I see you." Baring some major changes, it seems obvious that this line will be shared between Minmax and Kin, and given the context it will be some sort of positive scenario.

Even if Kin dies, I doubt that will be the end of her story given the things above. Story telling involves rising tension and then resolution. If you give up reading at the height of the tension, you may be saving yourself from a little more tension and tragedy, but you are also missing out on the resolution. That resolution is not always happy, but in the case of Goblins, I think it will be.

[Pillbug]

That's why I'm not just stopping now. This is a really well-crafted story and in the past few months I've grown accustomed to the "trust the writers" mantra in other stories I follow. This is just how I feel about this page in particular, and my misgivings about where things look like they're going but may very well not. I hope I'm not coming off as demanding or whiny; that's not my intent.

[Mereneth]

"Edit for secondary point: Writing major characters well so that the reader becomes attached to them to make you feel it when you kill them has been a successful literary technique since fiction was created."
Appreciated, but when is enough enough?
Am I supposed to enjoy the deaths ?
Game of Thrones certainly seems to be that sort of thing, for example.

The literary standard for killing an important/fan likable character is to also make the death worth it. If you disappoint your readers by killing off their favorite characters, typically something the writer can determine by making them likable for one reason or another, your readers will fade away as they simply can't 'live' in your world with the pointless loss of someone so critical. It remains to be seen if Kin will die and, if so, if her death will actually lead to something.

Chief died to save the other GAP members.

Klik died saving Dies/Fox

Their deaths had an overall purpose that made it, while horrible, have a worth to it that made them acceptable losses, albeit sorely accepted ones.

Game of thrones even meets this standard in all of the books i've read from the series so far. No characters of significance/likable-value died without making their deaths have enough meaning to have the reader bite his/her tongue, nod slowly with tears in their eyes and continue reading.

I won't deny that sometimes shitty stuff happens, but when you're writing an involving tale, the readers are a character, of a sort, and need justification to accept the passing of the lost.

[Liesmith]

If she dies, her death allowed them to retain their only advantage against Psimax: his ignorance about Oblivious. If he'd grabbed her leash, then she'd be forced to tell him all about it, and Minmax wouldn't have any chance against him.

[Sushulana]

That's why I'm not just stopping now. This is a really well-crafted story and in the past few months I've grown accustomed to the "trust the writers" mantra in other stories I follow. This is just how I feel about this page in particular, and my misgivings about where things look like they're going but may very well not. I hope I'm not coming off as demanding or whiny; that's not my intent.

You said what I wanted to say in most of your posts, but you said it much better.

The literary standard for killing an important/fan likable character is to also make the death worth it. If you disappoint your readers by killing off their favorite characters, typically something the writer can determine by making them likable for one reason or another, your readers will fade away as they simply can't 'live' in your world with the pointless loss of someone so critical. It remains to be seen if Kin will die and, if so, if her death will actually lead to something.

Chief died to save the other GAP members.

Klik died saving Dies/Fox

Their deaths had an overall purpose that made it, while horrible, have a worth to it that made them acceptable losses, albeit sorely accepted ones.

Game of thrones even....

Okay, G.O.T. is a bad example, I should have stayed with LOST, and King makes me wonder sometimes...

My hopes at this point are;

1- we are not stressing the writer (Thunt?) out too much here.

2- Kin makes it

3- somebody makes it out of there that can tell people about how evil is winning in the multiverse, a person might understand the significance of that and the warning it represents... hm, back to Kin again.

Fair to say that the next page will be the most anxiously anticipated ever?

[warwizard87]

even if kin dies i will tearfully continue the comic, why because i own kin that much.

[Xavier78]

Kin dying will make it a better story,

I disagree with this so hard my head could explode. I don't mind when Characters die, even main Characters if it serves a meaningful purpose (like you said about Chief). That said, nothing about Kin dying will make this a better story. If anything it will ruin the story (for me) and the growth of MM will be totally destroyed. Now, that is just my opinion, which I'm entitled to, as you are to yours.

If you don't like the amount of death in a novel, series,webcomic etc, pick another author there's enough out there to find one with the right balance for you.

This is just a polite way of telling someone to leave just because his/her opinion differs from yours. Shame on you. If he didn't have some form of attachment he wouldn't be here to voice said opinion any how. Everyone should be allowed to voice their feelings without being told to shove off, no matter how polite it is worded.

[Mereneth]

3- somebody makes it out of there that can tell people about how evil is winning in the multiverse, a person might understand the significance of that and the warning it represents... hm, back to Kin again.

Somehow, all things considered, I somehow wonder if Kore = transdimensional version of Forgath following up on this 'message',

[warwizard87]

Kin dying will make it a better story,

I disagree with this so hard my head could explode. I don't mind when Characters die, even main Characters if it serves a meaningful purpose (like you said about Chief). That said, nothing about Kin dying will make this a better story. If anything it will ruin the story (for me) and the growth of MM will be totally destroyed. Now, that is just my opinion, which I'm entitled to, as you are to yours.

i dont think you can make the assumption that if kin dies right now it will serve no purpose. perhaps it does in ways we have not yet seen. im still going to if and when she does though =[

[Sockmonkey]

If the next update is a wall of text page I'm gonna be soooo pissed.

[CelineSSauve]

If the next update is a wall of text page I'm gonna be soooo pissed.

I do doubt that for one big reason: There's a counter to a Kickstarter on the main page of Goblins.

If the Fans haven't calmed down by the time the Kickstarter starts (or at the very least before it ends), then the thing would fail. Fan support and all that jazz being so important in the online medium.

So, for better or for worst, I think Thunt will have two updates a week for the next month-and-a-half, or so. But I have nothing to base that on past what I posted above.


As for Kin's death having meaning or not. Once again, I just and wait to see. There are many, many, many pages that I saw the community in arms over back before I joined the forums and would just lurk every few weeks, that were resolved within a few pages. The pacing of this story is fantastic if you get the books. Or if you have patience.

Me? I get the books.

[Krulle]

My opinion. Yes, I have one. So, skip it. ;)

Kin will die.
She is a non-PC, and as such outside of the quest (get the Jade Teapot for her), for which she had loads of knowledge where the origin of the knowledge is questionable, rather unusable. And her knowledge and rapid grasp of situations might be a bit too much over-compensating of Minmax' chosen minus in intelligence.

We'll see.

[Amara]

I don't know if this was said yet, as there have been many, many pages and I'm still studying for finals but.

1) In all likelihood, Kin will die.
2) Consider the positioning of the last Minmax alternate we were given information on. Using the teapot to go to someone that is already dead? I keyed in on that. Now, in that universe, we can assume it's quite possibly to finish the torture he started, but for our Minmax?

So here's what I see possibly happening;
Minmax 'sees' Kin. She dies, everyone is upset, and they leave the maze post 'final battle' with Psimax, then use the teapot to travel to her (though she is dead.)
Now the question is if this means they can save her. It's been explicitly stated that while bringing someone back to life is difficult in this particular 'verse, it's possible. What better way than clawing their soul back from the underworld itself?

It'd certainly make for an awesome story, at least.

[CelineSSauve]

So here's what I see possibly happening;
Minmax 'sees' Kin. She dies, everyone is upset, and they leave the maze post 'final battle' with Psimax, then use the teapot to travel to her (though she is dead.)
Now the question is if this means they can save her. It's been explicitly stated that while bringing someone back to life is difficult in this particular 'verse, it's possible. What better way than clawing their soul back from the underworld itself?

It'd certainly make for an awesome story, at least.

It would also delay the return to the GAP. Unless that's not MinMax on the bridge. And if it's not, then what was the holdup to return to the GAP in the first place?

[Amara]

Wasn't the IME green, though? Kin has a green IME but it's the wrong shade of green....unless that specific shade of green is for the teapot. It remember it to be the exact same shade Junior and Dies share.