May 03rd, 2013 Out of Hell

[DrinksTooMuchCoffee]

Saying she isnÔÇÖt bleeding to death seems about as realistic at this point as saying that she hasnÔÇÖt lost the lower half of her body.

More or less realistic than http://www.goblinscomic.com/06222009/ not being fatal?

The story can go pretty much in any direction because it's the boss over the rules anyway, even if it's choosing to follow them.

[friedkitty]

If the DM has some house ruling to deal with massive damage = serious injury that would be consistent with the comic, scars, badly healed arms, half the body exploding across the room. Kin is bleeding to death. Or do people think that she will continue to bleed indefinitely as long as she has 1 HP as a cosmetic effect. Plus Thunt isn't consistent with the -10 and giving her a few round to have a last reunion with MM for dramatic reasons.

Story telling > rules if the DM sees fit. Most of the times Thunt referred to the rules has been for comedic reasons I don't see anyone in comic referring to rules in the near future.

If that were the case, Thunt has already established the rules here.
http://www.goblinscomic.com/11152005/

So he could easily put a -1 above her and still have 10 rounds to finish off Psimax, and have the touching reunion/sendoff. So this leads me to believe that she is not in immediate danger. If she were already dead, then the lack of -10 would not be without precedence, as we saw with GS's death. But we know she's not, so....

**still grasping at the straws of hope**

[YardMeat]

More or less realistic than http://www.goblinscomic.com/06222009/ not being fatal?

The story can go pretty much in any direction because it's the boss over the rules anyway, even if it's choosing to follow them.

I guess I should have chosen a better word. I mean realistic in terms of a self-consistent fantasy setting, not in terms of the real world. I buy Goblin Slayer's wound not being fatal because he is an adventurer with several levels under his belt. Not to mention the fact that he has been magically altered in some way. When we see that wound start to heal, it looks to me like some sort of plant growth, not just a regular scar. Also, being heroic fantasy, we expect people to survive wounds that people rarely survive in the real world. GS's survival is realistic, in the context of the setting.

What I'm calling unrealistic is the idea that Kin's blood loss has no adverse effects because there is no specific rule for such effect in the Player's Handbook. Dismemberment isn't covered in the rules either, but I've lost count of the number of times we've seen dismemberment in this comic, so obviously the fact that it isn't spelled out in the rules does not matter, hence why I made the comparison that I did. It's unrealistic because the comic obviously employs several effects that are not strictly covered by the rules and rules alone. Goblin Slayer being impaled on a pipe is actually a great example. It was a critical, which explains the severity of the wound, but there are no strict rules in the Player's Handbook for getting impaled on a pipe and getting stuck there. Likewise, there are no strict rules for dismemberment or blood loss (outside of being knocked under 0hp). I'm saying it is unrealistic to say that, just because it is not spelled out explicitly in the rules, it isn't happening. If Thunt had set up that expectation by only having events happen that can easily be explained by strict adherence to the core rules without any creative leeway, then I wouldn't have called that notion unrealistic. It would be a perfectly justified assumption based on the self-consistency of the setting.

However, that's not the expectation that Thunt has set up. Yes, he uses some home-brew version of 3.x, but there are also story elements that come up that don't seem strictly rules-derived.

Besides, we have already had at least one character pass out from blood loss (Dies after he lost his arm . . . the first time), so we know that blood loss matters in the Thuntverse, even if you are above 0hp and even if it is not strictly spelled out in the PhB.

[YardMeat]

If that were the case, Thunt has already established the rules here.
http://www.goblinscomic.com/11152005/

So he could easily put a -1 above her and still have 10 rounds to finish off Psimax, and have the touching reunion/sendoff. So this leads me to believe that she is not in immediate danger. If she were already dead, then the lack of -10 would not be without precedence, as we saw with GS's death. But we know she's not, so....

**still grasping at the straws of hope**

She isn't already dead. She's still moving and Thunt said she wasn't dead during one of his live drawing sessions. That said, Thunt has also established a rule that you don't have to be below 0 hp to suffer blood loss (http://www.goblinscomic.com/03042006/). And the comic you posted also shows a character that is in the negatives without it appearing over his head yet, which means that Kin could be in the negatives. Still, I think there are other reasons to hope for Kin's survival or eventual resurrection.

[stevedj]

Although technically not being in the negatives Kin either doesn't need to be stabilized or it wouldn't help.

She's still bleeding, though. Doesn't healing stabilize bleeding damage even if you aren't in the negatives?

That's what I'm thinking. She may not be in the negatives YET, but she could be at 5 HP and falling each round.

Commenting on that entire line of dialog, not friedkitty, specifically.

From what I can remember from 3rd edition D&D, the only time players normally have to worry about bleeding to death is when their hitpoints have reached 0 or less.

Interestingly enough, the only thing you can look up that's relatable to any blood loss type damage are "wounding" weapons. Even that doesn't ensure continued hit point loss, rather constitution damage, which could be devastating for high level characters (1 hp per level). But still, no continued hp loss.

So, as unrealistic as it may sound, while that growing puddle of blood certainly adds drama to the situation, she's not bleeding to death unless there's a red negative number floating over head.

So, you mentioned constitution damage... hmmm... perhaps she is still in positive HP, but is losing constitution every round. At some point, it becomes fatal, and she just dies right then (sudden -10). THunt hasn't had any mechanism to show constitution drain. And, this solves one other problem for those predicting a final moment between Kin and MM before her death. If she hits negative HP, she cannot talk to MM, even just to say her expected line of "I see you". But if she is in positive HP, with imminent death due to constitution loss, she can still talk to MM for that final moment before CON hits 0 and she simply dies.

[Glemp]

PCs at least can talk while in negative HP - the Drow were very vocal about wanting to get healed, and Chief screamed quite a lot as well as apologising for making them come back.

[EatsAbug]

Has there been any sign of "-10" appearing in any recent deaths, e.g. in the tower room?
Maybe Thunt has decided that particular convention is a bit too trivializing for such serious events.

[Glemp]

Has there been any sign of "-10" appearing in any recent deaths, e.g. in the tower room?
Maybe Thunt has decided that particular convention is a bit too trivializing for such serious events.

As I recall, the -10 isn't shown if it's pretty obvious that the person's dead - the treesplosion didn't have one because, well, it's not exactly a survivable injury. The recent deaths we've seen are either obvious like that, or off-screen. Klik didn't have one, but he's from a different reality. Fox did, though - she was the most recent one with a counter that I can recall.

[Corronchilejano]

Has there been any sign of "-10" appearing in any recent deaths, e.g. in the tower room?
Maybe Thunt has decided that particular convention is a bit too trivializing for such serious events.

http://www.goblinscomic.com/03282013/

[Glemp]

Has there been any sign of "-10" appearing in any recent deaths, e.g. in the tower room?
Maybe Thunt has decided that particular convention is a bit too trivializing for such serious events.

http://www.goblinscomic.com/03282013/

My mistake.

[Never Finishes Anyth]

Bletch, but exploded yuan-ti tail makes a heck of a mess. I guess we know where her lower digestive tract was....

I was wondering why thunt devised the "splishk" effect to dispose of Forgath's mace and the three tower keys instead of, say, poof into powder, or crush into splinters. Now I see it was to set up panel 5 on this page.

-NeverFinishe

[langerhans]

Has there been any sign of "-10" appearing in any recent deaths, e.g. in the tower room?
Maybe Thunt has decided that particular convention is a bit too trivializing for such serious events.

http://www.goblinscomic.com/03282013/

I actually think that scene was included to remind the reader about the rule of the -10, so that we wouldn't assume that kin was dead (yet), although i'm not anticipating there to be much more left than a teary goodbye scene for kin now

[RocketScientist]

I keep going back to this page http://www.dell.com/support/drivers/us/ ... erid=TWCH9 and wondering what perspective the first few frames are being shown from, and what that key actually is.

Perhaps a way to exit the maze still exists after all...

[friedkitty]

It makes perfect sense. See first MM has to make his armor blue, then pull one of PM's teeth and ... wait....

No no, it DELLyn Goblinslayer right, so he has to get the Kinslayer sword,,and, um... hold on

It's the server. You have to .. um... that is.. um...

**looks around confusedly**

It's the catnip talking. I don't get it either.

[Marnath]

You people are hunting ghosts....

The floor is uneven and has some cracks.
I cannot see anything else which you guys might be referring to as a shadow of "significance"...

The shadow was much more visible before it was obliterated by the shading. I appreciate Forest's work most of the time but on that particular page he destroyed some of the fine details that Thunt spent time drawing.

[BuildsLegos]

The shadow is obvious in both relevent panels: http://www.goblinscomic.com/02192013/ and http://www.goblinscomic.com/04182013/. Although it was a bit much the first time.

[Product Placement]

There are other attacks that can cause bleed damage as well, from what I remember, they just arenÔÇÖt very common. I know there are in Pathfinder, so maybe IÔÇÖm just getting it confused. IÔÇÖm assuming that dismemberment would have something house ruled in.

So, you mentioned constitution damage... hmmm... perhaps she is still in positive HP, but is losing constitution every round. At some point, it becomes fatal, and she just dies right then (sudden -10). THunt hasn't had any mechanism to show constitution drain. And, this solves one other problem for those predicting a final moment between Kin and MM before her death. If she hits negative HP, she cannot talk to MM, even just to say her expected line of "I see you". But if she is in positive HP, with imminent death due to constitution loss, she can still talk to MM for that final moment before CON hits 0 and she simply dies.

(Gonna tackle those two at the same time)
Constitution damage is a one time thing, not a continuous effect. When attacked by a wounding weapon, your constitution is drained 1 point for every successful attack, thus potentially making short work of you. Even if you have some hitpoints left, you instantly die if you hit 0 constitution. Btw, when I first saw this page, I always figured that this was Thunt depicting wounding weapons in action.

Vampires drinking your blood nets constitution damage. A druid spell called Bleed causes your blood to thin so that you bleed faster upon receiving wounds, it has the same effect as if all weapons, that strike you, were wounding. Everything that has to do with you losing allot of blood is constitution related and it's never a continuous effect. That's how the 3rd edition was designed. Pathfinder may do things differently but Goblins is not based on Pathfinder, even though Pathfinder may be based on 3rd edition.

So, as unrealistic as it may sound, while that growing puddle of blood certainly adds drama to the situation, she's not bleeding to death unless there's a red negative number floating over head.

IÔÇÖm not as certain about that. The basic rules as written donÔÇÖt have anything about bleeding out except for falling below 0 hp or (maybe) special attacks, but they also donÔÇÖt have anything about dismemberment. I think most DMs would rule that a severed limb bleeds until you do something to fix it.

And yes, I know that the story is based on a modified 3rd edition ruleset. All I'm saying is that unless Thunt is specifically house ruling that players receive continued hp loss, after crippling attacks like that, there are no standard rules in place that support this theory. Since I don't have Thunt's special rulebook in my hands, I can only draw from the original source material.

Whatever is going on, I think it is safe to say that it isnÔÇÖt covered by the PlayerÔÇÖs Handbook alone. There are no standard rules in place to deal with this type of bleeding, but there are also no standard rules in place to deal with this kind of dismemberment. Saying she isnÔÇÖt bleeding to death seems about as realistic at this point as saying that she hasnÔÇÖt lost the lower half of her body.

In a realistic world, losing the entire lower half of your body and not being 3 feet away from a regenerating casting wizard or a modern day surgery table, is a death sentence. Few would argue against that fact. The closest thing that Kin went through, that's covered in the 3rd edition would be the "Massive Damage" event. That normally happens when a player receives 50 or more damage, in a single spell/attack. Player has to do a constitution save or die on the spot, even if he has enough hitpoints to survive. It's an instant event, you're dead, do no pass the go. You don't get to lie on the ground and act dramatically beforehand. That would have been the most realistic event.

I'm well aware that Vanilla 3rd edition doesn't tackle dismemberment in a good way, which I've always kinda found silly, since the Regeneration spell specifically comments on making limbs grow back. Many different groups make up all kinds of houserules to fix that yet, in my experience, it ends up being ignored just like grappling tends to be avoided.

But seriously, that last disclaimer of mine was there for a reason. I know that there are no standard rules dealing situations like these. I know that there are Thunt flavored houserules in place. But it means diddly squat to me, if I don't know what they are. If we were in Herbert's room, right now, he would be explaining to us how he'd be handling this situation. He'd have to be ready to defend his decisions when players pick up rulebooks and start asking "Where does it say that someone can bleed out, when he or she isn't 0 hp or lover?" Failure to do so is being a bad GM. Thunt is not a bad GM, since we're not entitled to same explanations as Herbert's players are but it's still frustrating to not know how he's handling the situation.

[YardMeat]

(Gonna tackle those two at the same time)
Constitution damage is a one time thing, not a continuous effect. When attacked by a wounding weapon, your constitution is drained 1 point for every successful attack, thus potentially making short work of you. Even if you have some hitpoints left, you instantly die if you hit 0 constitution. Btw, when I first saw this page, I always figured that this was Thunt depicting wounding weapons in action.

Vampires drinking your blood nets constitution damage. A druid spell called Bleed causes your blood to thin so that you bleed faster upon receiving wounds, it has the same effect as if all weapons, that strike you, were wounding. Everything that has to do with you losing allot of blood is constitution related and it's never a continuous effect. That's how the 3rd edition was designed. Pathfinder may do things differently but Goblins is not based on Pathfinder, even though Pathfinder may be based on 3rd edition.

Regardless, whether there is a rule working behind it or it is just being handled narratively, a creature that is above 0 hp can still be bleeding out in Thunt's world. We saw it with Dies already.

In a realistic world, losing the entire lower half of your body and not being 3 feet away from a regenerating casting wizard or a modern day surgery table, is a death sentence. Few would argue against that fact.

I've already clarified my use of the term "realistic", so I don't really fill the need to do it again, except to say that I'm talking about realistic expectations. It is a realistic expectation to have a fantasy hero survive injuries that would easily kill an actual human being. It is not realistic to expect Thunt to write a scene that involves massive dismemberment and to ignore the effect of blood loss just because the core rules don't address it thoroughly, especially after other characters have suffered from blood loss with less substantial wounds.

The closest thing that Kin went through, that's covered in the 3rd edition would be the "Massive Damage" event. That normally happens when a player receives 50 or more damage, in a single spell/attack. Player has to do a constitution save or die on the spot, even if he has enough hitpoints to survive. It's an instant event, you're dead, do no pass the go. You don't get to lie on the ground and act dramatically beforehand. That would have been the most realistic event.

I'm well aware that Vanilla 3rd edition doesn't tackle dismemberment in a good way, which I've always kinda found silly, since the Regeneration spell specifically comments on making limbs grow back. Many different groups make up all kinds of houserules to fix that yet, in my experience, it ends up being ignored just like grappling tends to be avoided.

I've seen the same thing, but that doesn't matter here. The lack of rules for dismemberment obviously hasn't stopped Thunt from dismembering characters left and right. The fact that it is a comic based on a game, and not a game with characters constantly squabbling over the rules, certainly makes that easier. Similarly, rules are probably an afterthought when it comes to Kin's current injuries. She is bleeding profusely, and that is probably a bad thing even though she isn't below 0 hp yet.

But seriously, that last disclaimer of mine was there for a reason. I know that there are no standard rules dealing situations like these. I know that there are Thunt flavored houserules in place. But it means diddly squat to me, if I don't know what they are. If we were in Herbert's room, right now, he would be explaining to us how he'd be handling this situation. He'd have to be ready to defend his decisions when players pick up rulebooks and start asking "Where does it say that someone can bleed out, when he or she isn't 0 hp or lover?" Failure to do so is being a bad GM. Thunt is not a bad GM, since we're not entitled to same explanations as Herbert's players are but it's still frustrating to not know how he's handling the situation.

If he is handling it the same way that he handled Dies losing an arm, then her blood loss is worrisome.

Sure, a DM needs to be able to back up his decisions, but DM that narrates a scene where a PC is cut in half and then says, "Well at least you didn't fall below 0 hp, because then you would have to worry about bleeding to death" would also be a bad DM. That would be hardly different from granting Kin full round actions and no loss of movement in her state, just because the rules don't spell that out.

[Amara]

There ARE rules for blood loss. It's handled as a certain amount of Hp lost per turn, for a certain number of turns.

I have run entirely too many rogues with arterial strike as a feat.
If she isn't in the negatives yet, she could still easily be losing enough hp per turn to hit them soon. Additionally, attacks that cause 'bleed' stack.

So if you have 1 attack that causes 3 hp loss per turn for 7 turns
And then another that causes 5 hp loss for 5, they will lose 8 hp the turn after that attack, until one of the two wears off. And so on.

[Jochi]

Something just occurred to me, and I had to read through ten pages to make sure nobody else has thought of it, and since it's so close to the next update, maybe I'll be proven wrong in moments. But it occurs to me that what just happened to Kin may be related to the reason THunt is being closemouthed about Kinslayer. If I read the admonition correctly, WE'RE not supposed to talk about her either, so I won't say any more. If I'm right, though, it's about to become obvious.

[willpell]

The shadow is obvious in both relevent panels: http://www.goblinscomic.com/02192013/ and http://www.goblinscomic.com/04182013/. Although it was a bit much the first time.

The first link shows how the shading obliterated the shadow, but in the second, there have clearly been pains taken to correct this. The apparent edge of the doorframe on the right side goes a substantial distance "below the floor", so it's a very obvious way of messaging us.

The part that bothers me is that if there was a key in the door, no matter how hard it was to see, Forgath and Kin ought to have noticed it while they were closely examining the door after arriving.

THunt is being closemouthed about Kinslayer. If I read the admonition correctly, WE'RE not supposed to talk about her either.

Whatever this is about, I clearly missed it. Must have been in a live chat or something?

[SamWiser]

Something just occurred to me, and I had to read through ten pages to make sure nobody else has thought of it, and since it's so close to the next update, maybe I'll be proven wrong in moments. But it occurs to me that what just happened to Kin may be related to the reason THunt is being closemouthed about Kinslayer. If I read the admonition correctly, WE'RE not supposed to talk about her either, so I won't say any more. If I'm right, though, it's about to become obvious.

You my good man, are a tease. That is all I have to say on the matter, just in case I ruin something awesome.

[ForgetsOldName]

You restore a severed extremity to a creature that has lost a digit, hand, arm, leg, or even its head. This power does not restore life, but it returns a lost extremity to a living or dead creature if the creature is otherwise mostly intact. The original extremity need not be present when this power is manifested; a new extremity is created by the power. If a head is restored to a body, the original head (if not already destroyed) loses all spark of identity, and can be considered so much dead tissue.

Is there any chance Psimax can do this? I don't know the system that well. It's a 3.5 Egoist 5 power, whatever that means. Restoring a head seems pretty damn useful, I will say. Source.

I actually am hoping he can't because it would be kind of a cheap shot for him to turn around and save her.

[willpell]

As an Egoist 5 power, it's available to other psions through the Expanded Knowledge feat at the same time they gain 6th-level powers (general or their own discipline), which is level 11 - exactly the level speculated as Psimax's cap (though I still don't think he's gained XP from his maze runs, I think he's the same level as Minmax, just having minmaxed a higher-tier class even more effectively than Wizmax did). So it's possible, but it's not likely because an 11th-level psion normally doesn't gain a feat - they get one at Psion level 10, when they couldn't get Expanded Knowledge for a 5th-level power because their own powers are still 5th level, and then they get another one at Character level 12, but that's too late for Psimax's purposes. The only way it might be legal is through feat retraining, and I think not even there, as you're expected to be able to qualify for the retrained feat at the level you gained whatever it's replacing.

[Sockmonkey]

You restore a severed extremity to a creature that has lost a digit, hand, arm, leg, or even its head. This power does not restore life, but it returns a lost extremity to a living or dead creature if the creature is otherwise mostly intact. The original extremity need not be present when this power is manifested; a new extremity is created by the power. If a head is restored to a body, the original head (if not already destroyed) loses all spark of identity, and can be considered so much dead tissue.

Is there any chance Psimax can do this? I don't know the system that well. It's a 3.5 Egoist 5 power, whatever that means. Restoring a head seems pretty damn useful, I will say. Source.

I actually am hoping he can't because it would be kind of a cheap shot for him to turn around and save her.

Actually, if he wants his precious variables to remain valid he has to save her so she can die in the tower room!