A month in ....

[thousandinone]

When I was working in pool service a few years back, I had a heart attack. I notified my boss, as well as the clients I was scheduled to do work for that way from the ambulance while enroute to the hospital of the circumstances. Maybe I owed that to my boss, but I didn't owe it to the clients; I chose to let them know out of professional courtesy; my boss could simply have let them know they needed to be rescheduled.

Maybe I should not hold others to the same standard I hold myself to? Fair enough.

I don't call it being respectful- I call it groupthink. Any criticism directed towards Thunt, however objective or reasonable (even if most of it isn't) is met with retaliation on these forums. This is not limited to this particular situation or instance. In fact, the aggressive defense of Thunt has been a big problem for him in the past, if you recall.

Mods are not equal in how they apply the rules either; they tend to overlook things that should be modded because they fit in with the groupthink, and they tend to be overly heavy handed against even an implied insult when it's out of the groupthink. There is an example of this on this very page.

I'm a fan of Thunts work, and I try to support him as best as I can. But going out of ones way to reprimand someone who is justifiably upset simply due to ones own personal bias is more or less the definition of "Not Cool." Telling people their feelings are _wrong_ because of this, this, and this is even less cool.

Why can't we just ignore those posts that are complaining, unless they are directly violating the rules? People just want their voice to be heard, they want a chance to throw in their two cents as well as vote with their dollar. Whats so wrong with that? It is not at all comparable to interrupting a viewing. Nobody is telling a bunch of grieving people that their loved one was a jerk, or anything close to it. No. What's going on here is more akin to a typical anime high school student getting lynched by his classmates for daring to offer any criticism regarding the hot teachers curriculum.

[nikohl]

The main point is that this is a moderated forum, with rules, and those rules extend to "listen to the mods and try not to break any of the rules" - you are welcome to complain elsewhere, but complaining here means you accept that both the Moderators and the Rules are things you have to heed. And the Mods are all fed up of dealing with complaints, attacks, and general whingery right now.

Lots of other forums have particularly strict rules about this sort of thing, why is it so difficult to accept ours?

[thousandinone]

I don't have a problem with the posted forum rules.

I have a problem with the fact that rule 1 does not apply equally to those who dissent from the 'mainstream' view on the forum.
I have a problem with the fact that rule 2 is applied at the moderators whim, and unequally. It seems to me that this should be within the limits of the stated rules, not just whatever the mod feels like, but the wording of the rule seems to be the latter.

I don't believe this is unreasonable. A mods job is to enforce the rules, not push an agenda. Part of that is being accepting of things you don't agree with so long as they don't break the rules. "I don't like what you posted" is not moderation. If they don't want to deal with it, then they should just not deal with it. We have the capability to report posts that are in violation of the established rules; they could easily limit their exposure to dissenting opinions by sticking to their mod feed, or whatever its equivalent is on this board system. Again: A mods job is to enforce the rules, not push an agenda.

[thinkslogically]

Of course the rules apply.

But the thing is, people who come to the forums to complain are generally already angry, thus making violation of rule 1 more likely. The other thing is that there are only so many times the mods are likely to hear a grievance before they get bored of dealing with it. Maybe there should be stock replies for those kinds of situations so they're always completely the same, I dunno. I doubt that would solve much though it would certainly remove the human element even further.

The fact that these discussions are going on and there have been NO formal warnings handed out I think is testament to the way things get run around here. No-one's censoring posts, and people are taking the time to explain why they disagree.

[Dariune]

I think the problem is, thousandinone is that you are being disrespectful.

Thunt is having a rough time. So rough a time that he has ended all communication, put his job on the line and drawn a pic which clearly depicts something bad going on. The man who draws the comic you enjoy is in crisis (Whatever that may be)

Well done for telling your employers in the ambulance. That is respect worthy but certainly not the norm.

In a crisis you drop everything and deal with it. yes telling your employer is important and should be done when you can.

the thing is, comparing this scenario with an employer/employee/customer scenario is redundant because we aren't in that situation.

We get the comic for free. Yes Thunt gets money from ads but it isn't at our cost. It isn't even unprofessional that he hasn't told us what is going on.

Until yesterday I was dealing with a manager at an electrical firm. Today I phoned and got told that he is off sick indefinitely. The manager obviously let his employer know and they told me. I don't know why. I will never know why and it is not my place to know why. It is an inconvenience to me but far more so for him I imagine.

Likewise it is possibly a mild inconvenience to us that the comic has stopped updating. But as consumers of his comic (Not customers as we don't pay) we don't need to know why, for how long or anything else. Just that it is not currently updating for a while.

In the middle of all this, in come a few forum posters demanding this, advising that or stating the way things should or should not be. regardless of whether this against the forum rules or not it is inappropriate. At least wait until the crisis is over! Until then, like the rest of us, just suck it up and hope for the best. And think about the guy behind the comic suffering and, eventually, reading these comments. Were it me I would be pretty gutted to see some of the posts I reckon.

[Guus]

This is silly, I have posted my concern AND my criticism multiple times on the forum, and not once has someone (the Goblinite mods nor other Goblinites) been angry or condescending to me for stating that opinion. I agree with you that the way THunt is dealing with this seems unprofessional at first glance, but you must also remember that we simply do not know what's going on. Not until we do can we really look at the whole thing and I'm sure he has a VERY good reason for his hiatus. Plus, the poor man deserves some time off, regardless if something is going on or not.

You have the right to complain, just like the rest of us. However, everything you've brought up so far is nothing new in the discussion, and I can understand people are getting a little tired of the whole thing. Plus, you come across as entitled. I'm pretty sure you don't actually mean it that way, but it does tend to be a little annoying to the people who don't see things your way.

[thousandinone]

I think the problem is, thousandinone is that you are being disrespectful.

Thunt is having a rough time. So rough a time that he has ended all communication, put his job on the line and drawn a pic which clearly depicts something bad going on. The man who draws the comic you enjoy is in crisis (Whatever that may be)

Well done for telling your employers in the ambulance. That is respect worthy but certainly not the norm.

In a crisis you drop everything and deal with it. yes telling your employer is important and should be done when you can.

the thing is, comparing this scenario with an employer/employee/customer scenario is redundant because we aren't in that situation.

We get the comic for free. Yes Thunt gets money from ads but it isn't at our cost. It isn't even unprofessional that he hasn't told us what is going on.

Until yesterday I was dealing with a manager at an electrical firm. Today I phoned and got told that he is off sick indefinitely. The manager obviously let his employer know and they told me. I don't know why. I will never know why and it is not my place to know why. It is an inconvenience to me but far more so for him I imagine.

Likewise it is possibly a mild inconvenience to us that the comic has stopped updating. But as consumers of his comic (Not customers as we don't pay) we don't need to know why, for how long or anything else. Just that it is not currently updating for a while.

In the middle of all this, in come a few forum posters demanding this, advising that or stating the way things should or should not be. regardless of whether this against the forum rules or not it is inappropriate. At least wait until the crisis is over! Until then, like the rest of us, just suck it up and hope for the best. And think about the guy behind the comic suffering and, eventually, reading these comments. Were it me I would be pretty gutted to see some of the posts I reckon.

I don't feel I've been disrespectful. Maybe I have, but such wasn't my intent were that the case. My objection isn't to being left in the dark per se, so much as to being told repeatedly that something was coming soon, coming tomorrow, etc with no follow through. Is that not disrespectful, itself? Silenced would have been preferred. I am not just a consumer- I am, in fact, a customer. Haven't you purchased any merchandise from this comic? Certainly, those of us who do more than simply view ads can be considered customers. I'm sure that many who have posted to this effect have been rather callous in doing so, but I don't consider myself amongst their number.

Thunt isn't perfect, and thats one of the best things about him. He makes mistakes, like we do, and he tends to own them. The vague communications we've received over the past month are very much not the norm, and are off-putting and worrisome as much as they are upsetting. For some of us, a bit of complaining is preferable to speculating and worrying. Ultimately, though, he's not a little child that needs to be coddled from all criticism, and we don't need a troop of white knights holding all dissent at bay. Those who are being overtly insulting and disruptive- fine, deal with them. But those who are simply voicing discontent should not be suppressed- doing so in fact would be doing Thunt a disservice. All feedback is important, even that which is negative. Do you honestly think he would want people to just shut up and disappear? I don't know the man personally, but Thunt as I know him would want the negative as well, if for no other reason than to conduct himself differently should a similar issue arise in the future.


And Guus, maybe you're the exception to the rule. I haven't read every thread, and I doubt the moderators have read every thread either. I'm just calling what I've seen. Maybe I do feel a bit entitled, but I don't think it's entirely unjustified either. We may just have to disagree with that. You said "it does tend to be a little annoying to the people who don't see things your way" but that applies equally to those who are criticized simply for having a dissenting opinion, does it not?

[Guus]

And Guus, maybe you're the exception to the rule. I haven't read every thread, and I doubt the moderators have read every thread either. I'm just calling what I've seen. Maybe I do feel a bit entitled, but I don't think it's entirely unjustified either. We may just have to disagree with that. You said "it does tend to be a little annoying to the people who don't see things your way" but that applies equally to those who are criticized simply for having a dissenting opinion, does it not?

It does, absolutely. I simply mean that the points you bring up are more of the same, which isn't productive in any way. Like I said, you have the right to complain, just like others have the right to disagree with you. It's just that we have had this discussion just once too many, and it gets annoying at a certain point. That's not your fault, but it does create friction.

[nikohl]

The issue isn't your different opinion...not to me, anyway. It's things like accusing one of Thunt's actual real-life in-person hang-out-at-each-other's-houses FRIENDS of being a "white knight" (which in modern context is a thinly veiled insult at best) when he defends him against complaints, that make you come across as disrespectful. And the immediate segregation of "you fan-types" versus "me and all the other normal people" doesn't help :/

[thousandinone]

It does, absolutely. I simply mean that the points you bring up are more of the same, which isn't productive in any way. Like I said, you have the right to complain, just like others have the right to disagree with you. It's just that we have had this discussion just once too many, and it gets annoying at a certain point. That's not your fault, but it does create friction.

It may well be that the points are more of the same, but it's not about showing how one has a completely unique take on things; it's not about being productive. It's more about just expressing how one is feeling- the only ones who can share perspective with us on that are other goblins fans, so we share them on the forums; we're not about to stand up a separate forum just for us all to bitch in (what a miserable place that would be!) If that feeling is shared by numerous people, doesn't that seem to lend more credit to it? I can understand it creating friction, but I really am doing my best to avoid that. Friction seems to be something that is extremely difficult to avoid.

The issue isn't your different opinion...not to me, anyway. It's things like accusing one of Thunt's actual real-life in-person hang-out-at-each-other's-houses FRIENDS of being a "white knight" (which in modern context is a thinly veiled insult at best) when he defends him against complaints, that make you come across as disrespectful. And the immediate segregation of "you fan-types" versus "me and all the other normal people" doesn't help :/

I think I came across in a way that I didn't intend- and I don't mean that as a faux apology. "White knight" to me, in the derogatory sense that I used it in, is for cases where someone who did not ask for help is being defended from something that isn't an attack. It's one thing to defend someone against blatant flaming, but another entirely to jump to the rescue when someone states an opinion that is justified and reasonable. I wasn't aware of the specific real-life-friend status, but still- I get miffed at my friends when they escalate a situation when trying to defend my from something that doesn't really call for a defense. Maybe that was disrespectful, but that was specifically targeted at the poster in question, not a blanket statement. Given his circumstances, maybe I was a bit harsh- but I still don't think the rescue was warranted in that case. I didn't segregate 'fan types' vs 'normals' at any point. The way I see it, there are two main camps- 'disgruntled fans' and 'accepting fans.' These aren't segregated my by statement or my action, they just are. I have to chuckle a bit at the implication that either group is 'normal' given that we're fans of a webcomic based on D&D told mainly from the perspective of monsters

[Ghostdogg866]

We get the comic for free. Yes Thunt gets money from ads but it isn't at our cost. It isn't even unprofessional that he hasn't told us what is going on.

Dariune, This is not true for many people. I know my son has invested in the comic here through donations as well as having hundreds, yes hundreds, of dollars in the Kickstarter for the Goblins Card game. Although it is not technically the comic it does go to the development of the game and profit for Thunt.

Just wanted to keep things in perspective about what free truly is.

[nikohl]

The Goblins card game is being handled almost entirely by Evertide, who have not gone dark. I had an email from them about one of their other projects quite recently.

That's like kind of like being mad at GRRMartin for the GoT TV show :s

[CooksACarrot]

We get the comic for free. Yes Thunt gets money from ads but it isn't at our cost. It isn't even unprofessional that he hasn't told us what is going on.

Dariune, This is not true for many people. I know my son has invested in the comic here through donations as well as having hundreds, yes hundreds, of dollars in the Kickstarter for the Goblins Card game. Although it is not technically the comic it does go to the development of the game and profit for Thunt.

Just wanted to keep things in perspective about what free truly is.

I would just like to say that at this point and given the information we have, we cannot really speculate whether he is being "unprofessional" or not. This is not to invalidate your point about direct financial contributions. I myself have Goblins merchandise, although I was not in a position to contribute to the Kickstarter.

Should this be a legal difficulty, the most professional thing Thunt could do is to comply with whatever legal restrictions he is under. To do anything else could mean he could get sued and lose everything, (including, perhaps, the Kickstarter), or charged with contempt of court and be jailed or fined to such an extent that he would have to seek other employment, and, once again, have to stopping writing Goblins or drastically reduce the update schedule.

At this point, we simply do not have sufficient information to question his motives, morals or motivations. I appreciate that many people feel that they have contributed to Thunt's financial well being, either through ads or direct contributions, and feel that they should have some answers. But at this point, we cannot know that those answers will not do more harm than good (and insinuations have all pointed to the latter). But we have been promised that answers will be forthcoming.

thousandinone, I appreciate your position, although I do question your interpretation of the relationship between you and Thunt. You have, in point of fact, been much more respectful, eloquent and thoughtful than others expressing similar positions. I understand that you have not read every page of the threads like some of us have, and have not seen some of the more inappropriate commentary. Some people have, I think, perhaps overreacted in your case, based on the feeling that we are retreading old discussions, and not wanting to get back into some of the awful things that happened earlier. Emotions are running high as well, as we wait to hear about someone and something we all care about.

I cannot speak for everyone, but if I have said anything that made you feel less than welcome here, or that your opinions and feelings were invalid or just plain wrong, I am deeply sorry. Since this crisis started, I have tried to work actively to do exactly the opposite.

This does not change the fact that, when we are so close to some kind of resolution here, those comments have not been terribly helpful or productive. I believe that you have said your peace, and that many of us have listened and considered your words and responded in a thoughtful way. I think it is now time to move on and wait until we know what we can actually do to positively contribute to a business we are all engaged in in one way or another and a person and a family that we all care deeply about.

[RocketScientist]

This one is extra special, because usually people only get them for rescuing the "ladies."

I'm going to let most of your less than polite post slide, because you appear to be trying to be helpful. But this is sexist and unacceptable. Don't do this.

[thousandinone]

This one is extra special, because usually people only get them for rescuing the "ladies."

I'm going to let most of your less than polite post slide, because you appear to be trying to be helpful. But this is sexist and unacceptable. Don't do this.

No sexism was intended; I feel that the demographic in question is rather sexist in it's choices of who to defend and who not to defend. That was more a stab at them than anything else, and it seems that the specific poster wasn't really a good candidate for the demographic anyway. I mean, would you call me racist for pointing out that some people judge others based on race? Or was it putting ladies in quotes that bothered you? In my experience, due to the way women tend to be treated in games and forums, it's a fairly common practice for women to use a male name or avatar. Men using female names and avatars are all too common... I'm sorry if I offended- as I said, it wasn't my intent. That said, I've said what I had to say and I'll drop the point.

Thank you for the validation, CooksACarrot. Text isn't the best medium for expressing things, I wish I had a way to convey things like tone and body language here. Words are useful for communicating information, but we rely heavily on that other stuff for context, and when it's absent we have nothing to interpret it on besides our own emotional state. I think that's the real problem here. That said, as I directed to RocketScientist, I've gotten what I wanted to get out out. There isn't really much reason for me to take it any further.

[RocketScientist]

The reason it's sexist is that you were attempting to insult anyone who disagrees with you by passive aggressively comparing them to "ladies." I am having a while lot of trouble believing that you don't understand that.

Also, as a separate point, it seems to me that the entire reason you're here is to complain. That's not cool. You say you want your voice to be heard. By whom? Obviously not moderators, because you seem to think we should not be here at all unless someone his the report button. Which, btw, rarely happens, even for blatant and prolonged rule violations. Thunt came right out and said, as did Danielle, that he's not reading the forums. So you aren't talking to him. Other forum members, then? Why? For personal validation? So a bunch of people can say "yeah! We're mad! Rawr!" So you don't think moderators should have a problem with people basically handing out torches and pitchforks?

Again, we get the frustration. But complaining is not helpful to anyone here. And continuing when asked to stop is in direct violation of the rules as posted. So thank you for stopping.

[Guus]

Instead, let's party and have a ball!

*dances away in the moonlight*

[Enepttastic]

So I come in to check on if there's been an update and this is what I see....

The reason it's sexist is that you were attempting to insult anyone who disagrees with you by passive aggressively comparing them to "ladies." I am having a while lot of trouble believing that you don't understand that.

Honestly, I'm having trouble believing someone could misinterpret that jibe to the point of believing it was sexist to begin with.

If you disagree, congratulations- you've earned an internet white knight point. This one is extra special, because usually people only get them for rescuing the "ladies."

I see him calling someone who disagrees a white knight. In fact, I fail to see any sexism in that post comment at all.

edit: Missed a space.

[Guus]

Do we really need to turn everything in an argument? It's between the two of them and they are both old and wise enough (literally translated Dutch sayings FTW) to talk it out together.
So have a beer, sit down, relax, and let's all be mates

[Synch]

CooksACarrot! We need your special random thread powers! Distract the masses!

What awesome potato chips flavours are available where you live, but not other places? For me, it is Dill Pickle and Ketchup, both of which are delicious.

We have Rost Lamb and Mint flavoured chips here, as well as Tomato Sauce flavour, and Honey Soy and Chicken. I don't really like any of them, just salt and vinegar.

[Guus]

Patatje Joppie, but that's quite the terrible flavour if you ask me. It's a special sauce for fries, but I genuinely dislike the taste. Even worse when mixed with potato chips.

[CooksACarrot]

CooksACarrot! We need your special random thread powers! Distract the masses!

What awesome potato chips flavours are available where you live, but not other places? For me, it is Dill Pickle and Ketchup, both of which are delicious.

We have Rost Lamb and Mint flavoured chips here, as well as Tomato Sauce flavour, and Honey Soy and Chicken. I don't really like any of them, just salt and vinegar.

Maybe it would also help if we said where we are from too. I can get Ketchup chips and dill pickle chips here in Ontario, Canada, as well as sour cream and bacon.

[Synch]

Roast Lamb and Mint chips, Honey Soy and Chicken chips = New Zealand.

Oh, you can get Greek Tzatziki chips here too.

[Guus]

I think I've referenced my Dutchiness on just about every thread though.
So if you even go to the Netherlands: DON'T BUY PATATJE JOPPIE-CHIPS! It's gross. But maybe you'll like it. But it's gross.

[godzilla999666]

I registered just so I could post this comment. Basically I treat thunt like my friends and clients that say they will be somewhere at 3 and then show up at 4. I don't believe him anytime he posts a time frame. When it comes to him saying he will post tomorrow or before midnight, I just assume he is lying, and making a time frame up just to soothe people. He did it for a long time on saying he would update by such a time and then not doing it. So at this point, if thunt posts anything with a time refernce, I just assume he is lying, will miss his own self imposed deadline, and it will be later than he says. A mans word is his hinor, and his word when it comes to time frames is worthless. This is not meant to disrespect to anyone, and has nothing to do with whatever his silence is, it is to just state what his behavior in the past and probably the future, and my reaction to it.