april -23 2013 Tight Leash

[Product Placement]

He still might end up coming to the conclusion that the reality 156 group are too unpredictable to allow running around in the maze, while he's trying to perfect the machine, given how it's been consistently their fault that all of his attempts have failed and the easiest way to get rid of them is to allow them to finish the maze.

If they were the reason he failed all 817 other times, then why would PsiMax have only now discovered that they're in love with each other?

This is his first attempt to unmake the maze. During the previous 816 times, he was calculating all the necessary variables that he needed for his calculations.

So far, this group is the only one that's solely responsible for messing up his calculations. The more he tries to fix them, the more monkey wrenches they keep throwing into them. Right now he has these facts/questions floating in his head:

• Kin and MinMax are in love. (This is the only reality to have team members, displaying this emotion for one and other)
• They have finished the maze for the first time. (What? They never get this far. How did they do that?)
• They left one of their team member behind. (They never leave someone behind. By now they should have given up. Why are they still pursuing?)
• They managed to take all the keys with them. (The prison is specifically designed to disallow that possibility. How are they circumventing that?)
• Someone is running around, harnessing oblivion as a power source, to literally punch holes through time and space. (Who's doing that? (Guess how annoyed he's gonna be when he finds out it's our MinMax.))

All in all, my standing theory is that he's gonna deem them too much of a trouble for them to be messing with his calculations. Sure, he can mercilessly murder them now, but that doesn't change the fact that they've already drastically altered the calculations of this particular maze run, to the point where he probably can't finish the Obliviion machine before the maze resets. He's gonna have to restart anyways and he might as well get rid of the one group that's clearly throwing out the most unpredictable variables. Allowing them to finish the maze results in them being gone for good.

What I wanted to say is that PsionMax can't just simply "splishk" (explode in thin air) the oblivious sword, as he did to Forgath's mace, to the keys, and even to the heads of his' Forgath and Kim comrades. As splishing things and moving them around with his psionic powers may be main way he is able to defend himself, he would be defenseless against oblivious, considering he does not have a sword or a shield to physically block a direct hit, and all his efforts to "psionic block" the attack would be null to oblivious. He can't splishk or "psionically" move around a thing that does not exist .

You're right that he can't "splishk" the sword nor move it around but he can still stop and control MinMax's body. The sword is definitely gonna be an advantage. I just don't know how much of an advantage it's going to be.

Imagine that MM is on a moving wagon and is blocking when the wagon crashes through some branches which are blocked/cut by oblivious.
The sword is moving relative to the environment and it's powers would still come into play yes? Now if those branches would still be blocked but MM can't chop through moutains by waving the sword he could still do the super chop as long as the blade is held motionless relative to his body.

The force that will impact those branches would be equal to the combined kinetic energy of the wagon. In MinMax's hands it will move through like a normal sword but if the sharpness of the blade + the energy of the impact, isn't enough to slice through those branches, chances are that the sword will get stuck in them and MinMax will be knocked off the wagon.

[RedwoodElf]

If they were the reason he failed all 817 other times, then why would PsiMax have only now discovered that they're in love with each other?

He only just turned on the Oblivion Engine, and then went and investigated 156 when it didn't work, and was surprised when Kin begged him to stop hurting MM. So before that he was still observing them, and had noticed that they suicided a lot, but didn't especially care why.

Well presumably the number on each team's counter is one of the variables involved. Since Psimax has only done the maze 817 times, he is actually a fairly recent addition relative to our FMK group, which has gone through millions of times - The fact that Kin and Minmax are in love should now be the obvious reason their count is so high...they are effectively holding out for a perfect run, refusing to leave anyone dead. A perfect run at level 3 would be virtually impossible (which explains our FMK's counter)

Being an unemotional and thoroughly evil man, Psimax never considered that love might be the cause of our FMK's high counter reading. He probably thought they just sucked.

Wendy Pini's definition of evil is "the inability to love" (described as that by Savah to Suntop in her Elfquest comic)

[EatsAPeach]

I'm thinking that Kin will defeat PsiMax all by herself, probably by telling him the Truth. He's filled with self-loathing and sees nothing worthwhile in the entire world, and he is still such a MinMax that he's traded his ability to bla bla bla for something. He's her best friend in the world, turned into a monster by his own self-despite, and I bet she has something to say to him that is going to stop him cold. He must have been a lot like 'our' MM in the beginning, and he turned into this. His companions were horrified when he was killing them, as if he wasn't the man they entered the Maze with somehow. Did they come willingly? Did he lose hope and decide to destroy them all once he saw the Maze full of alts?
The next most likely things are that MinMax will cut a hole and let every one of those battling alternates in there. Can PsiMax stop them all? Will he snarl "Impossible?" Will he even recognize an armored MM as #156 in time? Tune in for the next chapter.
But it might be Forgath's turn now, and he has a bunch of choices from badgers to banishments. Could he send PsiMax away? Or affect the wall he's stuck to? Or, as several have suggested, REMOVE CURSE on the collar?
About Oblivion? If you or I were on Sockmonkey's wagon, the blade wouldn't cut fast enough and we'd be knocked off. It would work perfectly for MinMax as long as you didn't explain it first. He can do anything with that blade that he thinks he can do, and he's very credulous and enthusiastic. As long as no one tells him he can't kill the Psion, he can kill the Psion.

[Master TMO]

This talk of resetting the maze brought me to a jarring halt, as I suddenly realized someone has already escaped it.

Walter was banished, sent home. If the maze resets, will he be yanked back into it? From various descriptions I think not, and that introduces another bit of instability.

Or I could be all wet. (grin)

This was a question I'd had too, but couldn't post earlier due to low post count rights restrictions.

Is there only one Walter, or is there one for each reality? If there's only one, how many times did he get summoned by the different realities of Forgath? Will Walter get reset when the maze resets, or will his MinMax wake up the next round suddenly minus his Walter without knowing why?

[Baeronvonbleat]

By implementing the oblivion holes, Psimax may have started a process he can't undo no matter what he does. In the fixed dimensions they're in, even if the maze tries to reset, it wouldn't be able to reset the holes (as it can't reset the counter either). There are clearly somethings outside the domain of what can and can't be done.

So it's a one way trip!

But Oblivion that Psimax is working on has to have every calculation known and thought out. So he figured out the whole "Love" conundrum, but then his own oblivion holes started working against him, and now everytime Minmax starts swinging his sword he's forcing a whole new string of computations! It's like a mastermind setting up a well crafted sand castle of destruction, and some kid just starts smashing it everytime you finish the blueprint. Now he can't finish his calculation unless Minmax is dead.

[DrinksTooMuchCoffee]

But Oblivion that Psimax is working on has to have every calculation known and thought out. So he figured out the whole "Love" conundrum, but then his own oblivion holes started working against him, and now everytime Minmax starts swinging his sword he's forcing a whole new string of computations! It's like a mastermind setting up a well crafted sand castle of destruction, and some kid just starts smashing it everytime you finish the blueprint. Now he can't finish his calculation unless Minmax is dead.

And poor PsiMax can't even by fiat just kill everyone with falling rocks to make them stop ruining everything.

[willpell]

Wendy Pini's definition of evil is "the inability to love" (described as that by Savah to Suntop in her Elfquest comic)

Point of order: is that inability to love anything, or just inability to love people?

[Big L]

Everyone's discussing about PsiMax's abilities and whatnot; Am I the only one who's interested in what his "player" is like?
This is of course a bit of "Meta-thinking" about the actual universes, but just bear with me:

I kinda imagen that "our" MinMax's player is a guy who's just happy as long as he gets to do what he wants to do: Kick ass and not bothering with names. Just rolling the dice when combat's afoot and reaping the rewards of all those traded abilities, you know? Let Forgath handle all the other boring stuff.

PsiMax's player, on the other hand, is that kind of player... To him, it's not fun, it's about winning. Win what, you ask? Everything! He minmaxes to show his superiority; superiority over the game, the GM, even over other players. He wants to show that he can make a character that can take on anything and anyone, alone. He's not happy about what he's doing, at most he might be content. Content that everything is going just as he want to, as he calculated they'd do.
I'm thinking him killing the other players is symbolic for the other players ditching him ("What the...? Oh screw you man, if that's how you're gonna be we ain't playing in this group ever again!"), probably because of his playstyle (or his arrogant personality). And he's all the more happy about it, now he can play the game just as he want to, as it should be (to him). I don't know why he's still playing though; quick guess is that the GM is somewhat of a pushover and has a hard time saying no, even when the only player left is insisting on continuing. Because, you know. He has to win.

But that's just me

[Orzahn]

Wendy Pini's definition of evil is "the inability to love" (described as that by Savah to Suntop in her Elfquest comic)

Jon Irenicus, Baldurs Gate 2

[BeanDip]

Still, I always wondered what that unopened bottom compartment of the chest was about. Okay, it's a theory, but one that is supported by Thunt's drawing, and he does not make any mistakes like an unexplained shut lock on a treasure chest. In fact, he rarely ever makes any mistakes at all, save for some colouring stuff maybe, but NEVER on the story side.

Unopened compartment? I seem to remember a theory about that on the old forum but not clearly.

Here's the best picture of the chest

This is referring to those four small lever-things at the bottom of the chest, yeah? How they seemed to move for the CHA, STR, and DEX keys but not the INT key? I noticed that detail too but I don't think it's relevant. I think that if it was important or an unopened compartment then Thunt would've at least given it a casual mention through one of the characters even if they didn't open it and it would most probably have been Kin. You know like she would say, "This chest seems to have another compartment..."

Chekov's Guns only works if you foreshadow them, otherwise they come off as an asspull. I don't think we're ever going back to that room, that chest or that key. I'd be happy to be wrong though.

[Kelten]

Wendy Pini's definition of evil is "the inability to love" (described as that by Savah to Suntop in her Elfquest comic)

Jon Irenicus, Baldurs Gate 2

"Time for more experiments!"
shunk- BOOM
"the pain will only be passing, you should survive the process"

[sunphoenix]

Call it a gut feeling... but I think ... this is the LAST RUN of the MoM. I think.. Minmax.. is going to do what Psimax hasn't been able to do.. destroy the maze and end the cycle. Minmax I don't know if he will realize what he is going to do.. but I think he will do it just the same.

As for the current predicament.. I could see Forgath speaking up and telling Psimax to leave Kin alone and he'll answer whatever he wants to know... just don't use that leash on her... just a feeling.

Why? Because love makes the impossible... possible.

[EatsAPeach]

I think each reality has a not-Walter demon, and that MM brought his demon in as part of his party, so it should reset over and over like party members, except that it is a demon and may be badass enough to make its own rules. Pretty harsh for the demon; he gets away but then there's a reset and it never happened, or did it? It depends on the nature of demons. Same way there's a teapot for every winner. Did we ever find out if every group is after the Jade Teapot? or are some of them after other prizes?
Big L, if these are versions of our group, then their players must be versions of our group. So there's a huge multiverse full of Evil Herberts? (shudder)

[RedwoodElf]

Wendy Pini's definition of evil is "the inability to love" (described as that by Savah to Suntop in her Elfquest comic)

Jon Irenicus, Baldurs Gate 2

Elfquest: 1978
Baldur's Gate II: 2000

Gee, wonder which one said it first?

[Sockmonkey]

Funny thing is the oblivion holes have eliminated from existence or changed the actions of a number of alternates in this run of the MOM. This affects the actions of the alternates who would have run into them, and so on. It's all snowballed so much that PM is gonna have to recalculate from scratch.

[Zambee]

I think each reality has a not-Walter demon, and that MM brought his demon in as part of his party, so it should reset over and over like party members, except that it is a demon and may be badass enough to make its own rules. Pretty harsh for the demon; he gets away but then there's a reset and it never happened, or did it? It depends on the nature of demons. Same way there's a teapot for every winner. Did we ever find out if every group is after the Jade Teapot? or are some of them after other prizes?
Big L, if these are versions of our group, then their players must be versions of our group. So there's a huge multiverse full of Evil Herberts? (shudder)

Grinnorarcen (not-walter) is unique in all the realms. I think this is because Hell is a different set of dimensions altogether.
We can assume this is the case because whilst he was adventuring with a Minmax from an alt reality, he had previous experiences with our reality Minmax and Forgath.
So I suppose that each alt could potentially meet any of the other alts outside the MoM if they happen to go to the same Layer of Hell.

[DrinksTooMuchCoffee]

Not sure if someone mentioned this or not, but with the keys destroyed that's a bit of an obstacle to properly winning the maze without a suffering a reset for our FMK now.

OTOH, if the MoM is destroyed, maybe it'll just puke out everybody back to their home dimensions. Problem solved.

[CelineSSauve]

If they were the reason he failed all 817 other times, then why would PsiMax have only now discovered that they're in love with each other?

He only just turned on the Oblivion Engine, and then went and investigated 156 when it didn't work, and was surprised when Kin begged him to stop hurting MM. So before that he was still observing them, and had noticed that they suicided a lot, but didn't especially care why.

Well presumably the number on each team's counter is one of the variables involved. Since Psimax has only done the maze 817 times, he is actually a fairly recent addition relative to our FMK group, which has gone through millions of times

Actually... All we know about PsiMax for sure is that he can remember the last 817 runs. Do we know that's all the runs they've made? Did PsiMax break the counter the moment they entered the Maze, or after a few failed runs got him frustrated, in other words.

{On another matter... This is twice now that I've had to resubscribe to this thread. Any idea why it might be unsubscribing me?}

[RedwoodElf]

Well presumably the number on each team's counter is one of the variables involved. Since Psimax has only done the maze 817 times, he is actually a fairly recent addition relative to our FMK group, which has gone through millions of times

Actually... All we know about PsiMax for sure is that he can remember the last 817 runs. Do we know that's all the runs they've made? Did PsiMax break the counter the moment they entered the Maze, or after a few failed runs got him frustrated, in other words.

{On another matter... This is twice now that I've had to resubscribe to this thread. Any idea why it might be unsubscribing me?}

Psimax would have included the count on the counter when he destroyed it in the number of times he said he's run the maze. That's one of those all-important variables after all.

[kida]

Everyone's discussing about PsiMax's abilities and whatnot; Am I the only one who's interested in what his "player" is like?

My personal belief is that "our" reality is the only reality with PCs.
There is no way of making a player forget his previous runs through the maze.
It will be just a boring game of encountering the same traps again and again.
I think Herbert planned this maze in a way that they could play it only one time. If they lose, PsiMax will destroy the maze and send everyone to oblivion. So from the player perspective they must succeed.

[DrinksTooMuchCoffee]

Everyone's discussing about PsiMax's abilities and whatnot; Am I the only one who's interested in what his "player" is like?

My personal belief is that "our" reality is the only reality with PCs.

It gets real messy if you ask how a game run by an alternate reality Herbert is affecting "our" Herbert's game through the Maze. I mean you could say that just by the weirdness of the universe that there are multiple realities all playing in multiple Herbert's games, and somehow "our" Herbert is unknowingly having every alternate reality act just like they're acting in their own realities where they're the primary party, but then why not ask what PsiMax's Thunt is like where he's one of the primary characters in Alt-Thunt's Alt-Goblins and how our Thunt is managing to depict what he's doing in our real world comic?

[CelineSSauve]

but then why not ask what PsiMax's Thunt is like where he's one of the primary characters in Alt-Thunt's Alt-Goblins and how our Thunt is managing to depict what he's doing in our real world comic?

Because we don't want our heads to explode?

[T-RexWithTourettes]

Well, I'm really late, but, WHEW, Psimax is so pissed he's blabbering information about himself. Huh. Guess he's as much of a minmaxer as Minmax
Although why would he trade the ability to control minds? Seems kind of silly.

[DrinksTooMuchCoffee]

but then why not ask what PsiMax's Thunt is like where he's one of the primary characters in Alt-Thunt's Alt-Goblins and how our Thunt is managing to depict what he's doing in our real world comic?

Because we don't want our heads to explode?

Aww, I didn't even actually say that the MoM, despite being fictional, was real in that it's a multi-dimensional fictional creation and Thunts across real realities are actually interacting through it. Which would be pretty much the same as saying that multiple Herberts and players across realities are interacting through a dungeons in Herberts' games (plurals are hard here). I mean, you can say that it's somehow happening, but it'd be a little weird.

[Product Placement]

Although why would he trade the ability to control minds?

For extra intelligence, of course.

Besides, who needs the ability to control minds, when you can just control their bodies or explode body parts, in order to compel obedience?