The Goblins Fan Forum

I doubt he's lying, I think he simply can't get himself to do it in his own strict time schedule. So if he IS lying, he is doing it to himself, not to us.

Enepttastic wrote:So I come in to check on if there's been an update and this is what I see....

RocketScientist wrote:The reason it's sexist is that you were attempting to insult anyone who disagrees with you by passive aggressively comparing them to "ladies." I am having a while lot of trouble believing that you don't understand that.

Honestly, I'm having trouble believing someone could misinterpret that jibe to the point of believing it was sexist to begin with.

I'm not. Believe me, there are people in the world who think it's sexist to use the word "She" to refer to a character in a webcomic whose title is "Sworn Maiden" and is constantly referred to as "daughter" and "Sister" - trust me, it happens. A Lot.

godzilla999666 wrote:I registered just so I could post this comment. Basically I treat thunt like my friends and clients that say they will be somewhere at 3 and then show up at 4. I don't believe him anytime he posts a time frame. When it comes to him saying he will post tomorrow or before midnight, I just assume he is lying, and making a time frame up just to soothe people. He did it for a long time on saying he would update by such a time and then not doing it. So at this point, if thunt posts anything with a time refernce, I just assume he is lying, will miss his own self imposed deadline, and it will be later than he says. A mans word is his hinor, and his word when it comes to time frames is worthless. This is not meant to disrespect to anyone, and has nothing to do with whatever his silence is, it is to just state what his behavior in the past and probably the future, and my reaction to it.

I think it would probably be more fair to say that he truly believes what he is saying, but deluding himself, rather than lying. I know lots of people who do this, I have done it myself. The difference, and I think it is an important one, is that he makes himself feel bad about doing this. He feels he is letting us down, and letting himself down. We may not expect him to update on time, we may have built it into our plans, but he expects himself to update on. It must be considerably worse in a case like this.

I could be wrong, perhaps he has been actively deceptive, but given the amount of work he has put into finding a regular update schedule he can maintain, I do not believe this to be the case.

In my opinion, using the word lying implies active, deliberate deception. Thunt really tries to update on time, but often something (life, his own perfectionism) gets in the way. Perhaps he needs to learn how to better estimate and plan his time.

In this case, I think expressing what he is going through in words is proving exceedingly difficult. And the longer the delay, the worse it gets. Thunt has always been one to obsess over his detractors, rather than his supporters, and given the length of his absence, he knows there will be many of the former.

Please be aware of the implications of your words to the intent of the people you are speaking of. I think your comment was made in a spirit of caring and support, but it would do to be a bit more mindful, especially in a medium where it can be so hard to see the intent behind the words.

Enepttastic wrote:So I come in to check on if there's been an update and this is what I see....

RocketScientist wrote:The reason it's sexist is that you were attempting to insult anyone who disagrees with you by passive aggressively comparing them to "ladies." I am having a while lot of trouble believing that you don't understand that.

Honestly, I'm having trouble believing someone could misinterpret that jibe to the point of believing it was sexist to begin with.

Congratulations on your male privilege.

I must say that if that is sexist / male privilege, please enlighten me.
All i can find in that is him referring to Thunt as not part of the group `ladies`. Which i can only assume is correct.
I am trying to find from what angle your coming from to call it sexist, but i can not find it.
I admit English is not my first language, so it might just be to subtle for me to catch.

It's because he was comparing Thunt to "ladies" as if "ladies" was something less than what he is. Like if you tell someone "you throw like a girl." You're saying insulting him by saying "girls can't throw, and neither can you." He was saying "ladies are helpless and need defending/rescuing, and so does Thunt." If that doesn't explain it to you, then I'm unfortunately not capable of communicating the problem. I needed help from my daughter to get this much across.

RocketScientist wrote:It's because he was comparing Thunt to "ladies" as if "ladies" was something less than what he is. Like if you tell someone "you throw like a girl." You're saying insulting him by saying "girls can't throw, and neither can you." He was saying "ladies are helpless and need defending/rescuing, and so does Thunt." If that doesn't explain it to you, then I'm unfortunately not capable of communicating the problem. I needed help from my daughter to get this much across.

Because you're assuming that "you throw like a girl" is always used like that?

Because, you know, girls can't beat guys? Oh, wait...

RocketScientist wrote:It's because he was comparing Thunt to "ladies" as if "ladies" was something less than what he is. Like if you tell someone "you throw like a girl." You're saying insulting him by saying "girls can't throw, and neither can you." He was saying "ladies are helpless and need defending/rescuing, and so does Thunt." If that doesn't explain it to you, then I'm unfortunately not capable of communicating the problem. I needed help from my daughter to get this much across.

Okay, I had to say this because I thought thousandinone's idea of white knight points was kinda funny and I may conversationally use it down the road.
I don't think the aim of the jab translated completely. The original comment seemed to be comparing people who continually feel called to defend "poor and helpless" webcomic artist from even mildly worded and constructive less than favorable comment which the artist themselves could be interested in hearing, to someone who feels called upon to do the same when they feel a "lady" is being victimized.

I see it playing out like this:
Girl:"I think I'm going to row out into the river tomorrow, I know the forecast says there might be rain, but it should be fine."
Guy 1:"Are you sure that's a good idea? The wind is supposed to be bad too, you don't want to get caught out in a thunderstorm."
Guy 2:"Whoa! Whoa there buddy! The lady knows the forecast, obviously she figures she can handle it. There's no need to call her idea stupid. She can to do whatever she wants to do, and it ain't your business if she wants to row out there in a hurricane. Let me know if this guy bothers you again, I'll take care of it."
Girl:"uh....... Thanks?"
Guy 2 pats girl on back and as he walks away rewards himself 1WhiteKnight point.
:End scene:

As in it was more a critique of overzealous defense of perceived "victims" than anything against thunt or women.

CooksACarrot wrote:

godzilla999666 wrote:I registered just so I could post this comment. Basically I treat thunt like my friends and clients that say they will be somewhere at 3 and then show up at 4. I don't believe him anytime he posts a time frame. When it comes to him saying he will post tomorrow or before midnight, I just assume he is lying, and making a time frame up just to soothe people. He did it for a long time on saying he would update by such a time and then not doing it. So at this point, if thunt posts anything with a time refernce, I just assume he is lying, will miss his own self imposed deadline, and it will be later than he says. A mans word is his hinor, and his word when it comes to time frames is worthless. This is not meant to disrespect to anyone, and has nothing to do with whatever his silence is, it is to just state what his behavior in the past and probably the future, and my reaction to it.

I think it would probably be more fair to say that he truly believes what he is saying, but deluding himself, rather than lying. I know lots of people who do this, I have done it myself. The difference, and I think it is an important one, is that he makes himself feel bad about doing this. He feels he is letting us down, and letting himself down. We may not expect him to update on time, we may have built it into our plans, but he expects himself to update on. It must be considerably worse in a case like this.

I could be wrong, perhaps he has been actively deceptive, but given the amount of work he has put into finding a regular update schedule he can maintain, I do not believe this to be the case.

In my opinion, using the word lying implies active, deliberate deception. Thunt really tries to update on time, but often something (life, his own perfectionism) gets in the way. Perhaps he needs to learn how to better estimate and plan his time.

In this case, I think expressing what he is going through in words is proving exceedingly difficult. And the longer the delay, the worse it gets. Thunt has always been one to obsess over his detractors, rather than his supporters, and given the length of his absence, he knows there will be many of the former.

Please be aware of the implications of your words to the intent of the people you are speaking of. I think your comment was made in a spirit of caring and support, but it would do to be a bit more mindful, especially in a medium where it can be so hard to see the intent behind the words.

But see, that exact behavior is the lack of professionalism that was causing me to make the post that spawned this discussion. You can miss an appointment or deadline now and then, that's human and cannot always be avoided. But if you consistently deliver on things later than you promise to do, you prove yourself to not be trustworthy. It doesn't matter whether it's business or private life, it doesn't matter whether you promise to take out the trash, pick up the kids from school or deliver the appliances you sold. If you are late on these things every time you promise to do them, people will soon learn not to believe you when you say anything. If those people are friends or family, that will likely lead to arguments; in the case of partners, loss of trust is a likely reason to split up at some point. If those people are in any way paying you for your service, sooner or later they will cut payment or (if appropriate) find someone else to perform the service. If you cannot keep to your schedule, you need to find a schedule that works. That's actually pretty easy to do for a webcomic artist who is completely free to choose his own schedule, far easier than for a company that has contracted customers, and most of those manage to do so as well.
Everyone who dares to complain about this is always called out on their "disrespectful" behavior toward Thunt and told how "grateful" they should be for getting a comic at all. How respectful is it to promise something and then not doing it? Not just once but repeatedly? I do not feel respected by being deceived, even though I do not believe Thunt is doing it intentionally.
Again, I don't care in the slightest for the reason of this hiatus. I'm sure there is a good reason. If Thunt comes back and says "there's been an issue, it's resolved, the comic will continue eventually," that will be enough for me. If he comes back and says "there's an issue, Goblins is closed forever," I'll be unhappy that the story won't be finished but will accept it quietly. But I'm quite tired of being told "this is when things will happen" only to find out later that nothing happened at all. That is what I find unprofessional and that is why I choose not to generate any revenue for the site from now on. That way, I can in full confidence say that I do not support the comic financially and thus have no reason to demand or expect anything. I might re-evaluate that decision at a later date, but for now, it stands.

I was more taking issue with the use of the word "lying", implying that Thunt has engaged in active and intentional deception. I don't believe that is a fair estimation.

As to your other points, I can understand your perspective. I don't agree with it, but we have hashed this out before and I don't think it would do any good to go through it again. I believe that we both understand each other, and neither is going to change their views at this point.

[mod="RocketScientist"]I wasn't inviting debate on the subject. It was sexist. Don't do it.[/mod]

I'd just like to point this out again:

Thunt wrote:The more I work on this blog, the less sense it makes. It's 6:37am. I'm going to bed.

He thought he could do it, but he can't find the right words. That's what he's been trying to do ever since, and I happen to know that he was up well into the night again last night, too.

I'm not looking to engage with people who don't want to listen and only want to complain and wave their ragequit banners in public, but take a second to put yourself in his shoes. Have you ever faced a situation like that? Can you at least imagine being in a situation like that?

You've just been through a month of something that disrupted your entire life, the only way you can communicate how it feels is with this picture, you're trying to explain to an audience of thousands and thousands of people what happened, and you're stuck agonizing because you can't find the right words. You think you can sit and write and the words will come, but instead you spend days writing and rewriting and staring at the screen.

And what you get is a bunch of people who say that you're being unprofessional and you've broken your promise and they have no patience for you.

I've said it before, I'll say it again:

I hope you never find yourselves in that situation. And if you do, I hope the people around you actually remember that you're a human being and treat you with understanding and compassion.

I do agree with the point that he and danielle keep saying new information very soon or tomorrow or whatever and not actually delivering on it. The countdown clock saying today and the comic not being up quite yet is one thing, but when you go incommunicado and everybody is wondering what's going on and you're going to explain something and say it'll be up tomorrow or very soon, then it should be delivered on tomorrow or very soon. I'm absolutely in no way trying to bash Thunt here, I'm just agreeing that they could have handled the new info very soon or tomorrow thing better rather than not actually giving whatever info.

Clearly Thunt is going through some tough times, so I'm giving him some leeway, but if it wasn't the kind of emergency that it apparently is, it would seem rude. Also, to clarify, I'm not thinking Thunt owes me anything, I'm not in that camp. The only camp I'm in is the complaining about saying tomorrow or very soon and not delivering on it and that it could have been handled a little better.

RocketScientist wrote:It's because he was comparing Thunt to "ladies" as if "ladies" was something less than what he is. Like if you tell someone "you throw like a girl." You're saying insulting him by saying "girls can't throw, and neither can you." He was saying "ladies are helpless and need defending/rescuing, and so does Thunt." If that doesn't explain it to you, then I'm unfortunately not capable of communicating the problem. I needed help from my daughter to get this much across.

Ok, now I understand where the misunderstanding was that you took offense to.

thousandinone wrote:If you disagree, congratulations- you've earned an internet white knight point. This one is extra special, because usually people only get them for rescuing the "ladies."

I was never, at any point, comparing Thunt to "ladies." The "internet white knight point" in question is "extra special" because the "rescuee" was not, in fact, a "lady." This is a jab taken at the fact that the "white knights" disproportionately flock to defend those who maintain a female persona online (irrespective of actual gender, hence the quotes around lady/ladies), regardless of the circumstances; a jab at the fact that the "white knights" consider "ladies" to be helpless and need defending/rescuing. The whole reason I called him a "white knight" in the first place was because he was *unnecessarily* defending Thunt, who was *never in need of defense or rescue*, from something that did not even constitute an attack.

You have completely and utterly misunderstood my statement, to the largest extent I can imagine possible barring a language barrier. Where I stand is completely opposite to where you're placing me. Some of this is certainly my fault due to poor wording, but I can't help but feel that you're projecting a persona that you can't stand onto me unfairly. Your entire basis for calling me sexist is a negative remark that I made at the expense of a sexist group. That's like calling me racist for speaking negatively regarding the KKK. You got the wrong guy here.

Is this supposed to be some kind of ironic 'lesson' for me, maybe? Someone we know of, whom I was complaining about, did have to deal with some serious fallout due to being misinterpreted as sexist not so long ago, after all.

WearsHats, could you please tell Thunt that he doesn't have to agonize over an explanatory blog at all; he can just say "Personal stuff, sorry. The comic will continue in such and such a time frame, thanks for your patience," and that will be perfectly adequate. Whatever happened is really nobody's business but his.

WearsHats wrote:So you throw your tantrum. Even though you enjoy his work, you've decided to punish him by ensuring that he never sees any return from you, even indirectly, for the value his work brings you. Even if it costs you literally nothing. And you've furthermore decided that you just had to tell us all, to shout it from the rooftops.

WOOOOOOOSH!!

That would be the sound of you totally and completely missing the point. Though I'm not the OP of the comment you quoted I do agree with them and felt the need to respond. The point isn't to punish Thunt for not posting, the point is to say that it's not cool to continually promise something in a specific timeframe then continually not deliver (a MAJOR failing in this comic as a whole, not just this situation I might add). But hey, you go on being self righteous and defensive...just remember that actions (namely continually overpromising and then totally underlivering) or lack thereof, have consequences, both on the intertubes and in the real world.

Ghostdogg866 wrote:

Dariune wrote: We get the comic for free. Yes Thunt gets money from ads but it isn't at our cost. It isn't even unprofessional that he hasn't told us what is going on.

Dariune, This is not true for many people. I know my son has invested in the comic here through donations as well as having hundreds, yes hundreds, of dollars in the Kickstarter for the Goblins Card game. Although it is not technically the comic it does go to the development of the game and profit for Thunt.

Just wanted to keep things in perspective about what free truly is.

Also, THIS.

RocketScientist wrote:Congratulations on your male privilege.

And congratulations on being just as rude, condescending, and obnoxious as the person you are scolding. And incidentally, totally and completely proving thousandinone's point about groupthink and mod bias. Just because you are a mod, it doesn't give you the right to break the rules anymore than anyone else. Just sayin...

EDIT: Removing machine-gun posts. Sorry Gryphonic, you're right.

(Posts have "edit" buttons for a reason.)

Arklytte wrote:

WearsHats wrote:So you throw your tantrum. Even though you enjoy his work, you've decided to punish him by ensuring that he never sees any return from you, even indirectly, for the value his work brings you. Even if it costs you literally nothing. And you've furthermore decided that you just had to tell us all, to shout it from the rooftops.

WOOOOOOOSH!!

That would be the sound of you totally and completely missing the point. Though I'm not the OP of the comment you quoted I do agree with them and felt the need to respond. The point isn't to punish Thunt for not posting, the point is to say that it's not cool to continually promise something in a specific timeframe then continually not deliver (a MAJOR failing in this comic as a whole, not just this situation I might add). But hey, you go on being self righteous and defensive...just remember that actions (namely continually overpromising and then totally underlivering) or lack thereof, have consequences, both on the intertubes and in the real world.

Try reading again. The poster I was responding to specifically said that because this blog post is late, he will turn AdBlock on at the comic. I stand by exactly what I said. Not my fault you missed the point. You may have a different point, but that's the point the OP was making.

Ghostdogg866 wrote:

Dariune wrote: We get the comic for free. Yes Thunt gets money from ads but it isn't at our cost. It isn't even unprofessional that he hasn't told us what is going on.

Dariune, This is not true for many people. I know my son has invested in the comic here through donations as well as having hundreds, yes hundreds, of dollars in the Kickstarter for the Goblins Card game. Although it is not technically the comic it does go to the development of the game and profit for Thunt.

Just wanted to keep things in perspective about what free truly is.

Also, THIS.

Donations are just that - donations. Choosing to give money to a cause of your own volition. That's not paying for the comic.

The Kickstarter is, as was said, for the game. The money went to Evertide to make a game, and the pledge came with rewards - i.e. getting the game. That's still not paying for the comic.

The comic is free to anyone. There's no subscription fee. There's no paywall. You load the site, and there it is. The whole thing from the start to the latest page. If you choose to donate when Thunt says he needs help, that's up to you, but you're not paying for the comic.

There is one instance where you're paying for the comic. When you buy the books, you get bonus content not available from the website. That, you pay for. But the comic itself is free.

RocketScientist wrote:Congratulations on your male privilege.

And congratulations on being just as rude, condescending, and obnoxious as the person you are scolding. And incidentally, totally and completely proving thousandinone's point about groupthink and mod bias. Just because you are a mod, it doesn't give you the right to break the rules anymore than anyone else. Just sayin...[/quote]

You start with this:

WOOOOOOOSH!!

That would be the sound of you totally and completely missing the point.

And you're calling RS out on being "rude, condescending, and obnoxious"? You might want to think that one over. (Bonus: Adding "Just sayin..." does not in any way make what you've said less rude, condescending, obnoxious, wrong, or just about anything else.)

As for groupthink: I think for myself, thank you. And I bet you'd say the same if I pointed out that all you've done in this post is to chime in to agree with what a bunch of other people are saying.

No, mods don't get to break the rules. Guess what? RS didn't, even if you disagree with her.

He wants to tell us. He loves his fans. He is agonizing over what he wants to say, and has no idea how to say it. That's why he keeps saying "soon".

He is wanting to have us involved in this matter, whatever it is. But what it is is SO TROUBLING that he cannot form the words to do so. He has been trying, for hours, days, weeks and MONTHS to find the right words. But he can't. If you've been reading the same comic I have you know he has a way with words when the mood hits him.

He wants to tell us, but can't. He has tried to tell us, but can't.

I'm sorry, but take your ****ing ******* **** to the curb if you cannot get that ****ing idea through your cement laced skull.

This may be the most troubling event in this mans life and if you have enjoyed his work take the time to step back and leave him be if you cannot get over your own indignation. Check why you feel upset, then move on.

[mod="RocketScientist"]Insults are not acceptable. A warning has been issued. Further insults of anyone will also get warnings.[/mod]

Note: If you didn't receive a warning message, then one was not issued to you, and I am not speaking of you.

Enepttastic wrote:So I come in to check on if there's been an update and this is what I see....

RocketScientist wrote:The reason it's sexist is that you were attempting to insult anyone who disagrees with you by passive aggressively comparing them to "ladies." I am having a while lot of trouble believing that you don't understand that.

Honestly, I'm having trouble believing someone could misinterpret that jibe to the point of believing it was sexist to begin with.

I did, and I found it veryinsulting towards the intelligence of Goblinsfoum visitors...

I find mosts posts of some of the newcomers very insulting, and I've started thinking about adding some users to my phpBB block list, so that their posts are not shown to me.
It would be a first for me, and I've been in forums which went down the drain.
I would not like that to happen here.

Oh, I am so missing a scoring/liking system for posts on this board. (+1 for brightnotshiny's posts two up)

Do you think we could just leave off this whole entire argument until the current situation is resolved? Please?

Yes, promising delivery within a timeframe and not delivering is annoying, but EVERYONE has acknowledged that this situation right now is completely different to the normal state of affairs. Perhaps, since we all agree on that point, we can keep our more general comic complaints to ourselves and accept that now is not the appropriate time to be making them.

Give the guy a break, he's not even reading the forums.

thinkslogically wrote:Do you think we could just leave off this whole entire argument until the current situation is resolved? Please?

Yes, promising delivery within a timeframe and not delivering is annoying, but EVERYONE has acknowledged that this situation right now is completely different to the normal state of affairs. Perhaps, since we all agree on that point, we can keep our more general comic complaints to ourselves and accept that now is not the appropriate time to be making them.

Give the guy a break, he's not even reading the forums.

Agreed here, things are starting to flare up like it did in the other thread.

@ wearshats: maybe suggest to Thunt to draw what he is trying to say? If he is having difficulty putting it into words, then maybe drawing it out might help? Or maybe suggest that to Danielle as you said in another post that you talked to Danielle recently. However, you know him a lot better than I do, so maybe it's not that good of a suggestion.

He did draw something. We have only seen a snippet of it, but he did draw it out - I am hoping that helped. But art is always open to interpretation, and I think he'll need to write something to go with it no matter how obvious or comprehensive the drawing might seem to be - presumably that writing is the tough bit.