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Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:10 pm
by Pillbug
Glemp wrote:He isn't ignoring the emotional connection - rather, he's claiming that it isn't a valid argument, and that killing her makes him no more evil than FMK killing the other parties they've encountered, or even MM slaughtering his way through the Tower room below. Objectively, killing her is no different to, say...MM, Forgath and the Drow slaughtering their way through the GAP's village. After all, they didn't know the GAP, so Complains killing MM would be much more sad and tragic than the other way round, right?
Naturally. That's why it should be no surprise to anyone that the goblins would fight back, and they shouldn't be faulted for doing so. Everyone's a hypocrite in their own way, but trying to invalidate someone's emotional reaction to direct trauma is just incorrect. "You don't have a right to be upset" isn't any help to anyone. Aside from that, while it doesn't make what happened any less awful, Forgath deeply regrets what he did and wants to make it right. That makes him miles more sympathetic, even if he was a participant in atrocities of the past. Psimax shows no remorse and the only explanation he gives is "existence is bad." He doesn't regret his killings. He doesn't want to atone for past mistakes. He just wants everyone to submit to
his ideals. That's what makes him worse than FMK.
Edit: The dungeon is very,
very kill or be killed. I think they'd be much more likely to team up with other groups if it was an option.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:18 pm
by Orzahn
Tension building. imagine this filmed, a slow shivering inching crawl from a gril who just had her tail splattered. nothing left but sheer force of will. sometimes it seems like she is about to give up but each time she manages to drag herself an inch closer.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:31 pm
by MapsGroxily
One massive flaw in Psimax's plans is that, even if he completely oblivinates the MoM, he didn't destroy any suffering at all.
If the maze never existed, then noone would ever have entered it. Psimax would never have gotten inside it, and suffering would happen regardless. The only difference is the amount and where, but it would still happen, and given how this multiverse is more on the evil side, probably more than less. It's almost a failsafe: There's no way to true oblivion because reality itself prevents it in the first place.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:41 pm
by EatsAPeach
Two things:
1. PsiMax wants to never have been so he won't end up like Biscuit; stuck in hell and being brought back over and over. Ordinary death isn't safe enough in the Thuntiverse. So of course, that's what will happen to him. Going through the maze over and over with no chance of winning and no counter to make him forget might be almost good enough.
2. Thunt has likely been aiming at this since the comic began. MinMax's journey from xp-seeking oaf to Hero┬® has been the story as much as anything that happened to the Goblins. If MM can't save Kin, he's no hero. And this is likely to be something made of awesome, because I think Oblivious can do anything MinMax thinks it can do, no matter how impossible it is. EatsABug is probably on the right track there.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:49 pm
by Godbot
Orzahn wrote:Tension building. imagine this filmed, a slow shivering inching crawl from a gril who just had her tail splattered. nothing left but sheer force of will. sometimes it seems like she is about to give up but each time she manages to drag herself an inch closer.
Crawling through
a puddle of herself.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:55 pm
by EatsAPeach
MinMax didn't rage through a burning forest and smash everything in his way to save Kin just to see her die like this. Something's going to happen.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:57 pm
by RedwoodElf
Forgath: You know our Minmax is going to kill you after killing Kin, right?
Kin: I'm not quite dead.
Forgath: ...after the mortal wounding of...
Kin: I'm getting better!
Forgath: After the near fatal...
Kin: I think I'll be alright now!
Forgath (Facepalms)
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:24 pm
by Reads_Forums
Orzahn wrote:Tension building. imagine this filmed, a slow shivering inching crawl from a gril who just had her tail splattered. nothing left but sheer force of will. sometimes it seems like she is about to give up but each time she manages to drag herself an inch closer.
Whose last words are "blech, ogre piss?"
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:26 pm
by WearsHats
Glemp wrote:
Which can be defined very broadly.
The page you should be looking at is this one:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/02282007/
The PDF edition of Book 2 includes running commentary from Thunt. He points something out on that page. Take a look at the bed. Specifically, the chains attached to the bed. Wrist shackles on either side at the top, one big shackle centered at the bottom. Any questions?
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:34 pm
by Glemp
WearsHats wrote:Glemp wrote:
Which can be defined very broadly.
The page you should be looking at is this one:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/02282007/
The PDF edition of Book 2 includes running commentary from Thunt. He points something out on that page. Take a look at the bed. Specifically, the chains attached to the bed. Wrist shackles on either side at the top, one big shackle centered at the bottom. Any questions?
And all that means is that Kin is restrained during it, likely because GS wants his hands free. As I said, sex does not mean that a human-compatable vagina has to be involved. Think about one of GS's wooden fingers. Imagine what it can
do. Turn, bend, shrink, enlarge, worm it's way into the smallest of joints... and grow thorns.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:56 pm
by Verz
[quote="EatsAPeach"]Two things:
1. PsiMax wants to never have been so he won't end up like Biscuit; stuck in hell and being brought back over and over. Ordinary death isn't safe enough in the Thuntiverse. So of course, that's what will happen to him. Going through the maze over and over with no chance of winning and no counter to make him forget might be almost good enough.
A good point that several readers seem to be missing.
I am not saying this makes PsyMax any less of a dink, nor any more likable, just that he is not necessarily evil, just a moody victim that belives that others would come to the same conclusion that he has if they realized this.
It makes him no less an antagonist, just not quite a villain.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 5:16 pm
by Linkcharge
Reads_Forums wrote:Whose last words are "blech, ogre piss?"
Serious question: If the Anymug is already filled with something when you Ba-Wumf something new, what happens?
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 5:25 pm
by Aegis J Hyena
Linkcharge wrote:Serious question: If the Anymug is already filled with something when you Ba-Wumf something new, what happens?
Were it me I'd just rule the two liquids get mixed.
In other news, Kin had BETTER come out of this alive... somehow...
please?
I so hope Minmax doesn't kick over the Anymug. A little
too cliche/anticlimatic.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 6:40 pm
by Liesmith
Linkcharge wrote:Reads_Forums wrote:Whose last words are "blech, ogre piss?"
Serious question: If the Anymug is already filled with something when you Ba-Wumf something new, what happens?
It looks a little like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsTRxXvQY0s
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:31 pm
by rwstyles
I would have to agree. Timing the whole make things worse cycle is important. A story where the hero's walk in and win big immediately isn't interesting.
I have been wanting to post a picture I saw one time of a small kitten, freshly washed but not toweled off yet (very wet) and the caption "I don't wuv you anymore".
But I don't have a copy.
There are reasons why you aren't supposed to Min-Max a proper D&D character. Having minimal charisma has a cost.
FliesManyKites wrote:YES YES YES YES!!!
This was a wonderfully buoyant update to read! Any silver of hope right now is gold.
Things Kin has going for her:
- Intelligence! I'll bet you she was playing possum last page on purpose...
- No sign of negative hitpoints yet, though undoubtedly she's bleeding out fast.
- Psimax (and Forgath) both presume her dead.
- Psimax (and forgath) have moved to the next room, out of sight.
- Psimax seems preoccupied. For someone who just criticized Forgath for self-importance, he sure sees himself (well, his oblivion goals, really) as Pretty Darn Important.
- There is an improbable mug of incredible healing potion! Plot-wise, why would the healing potion have been brought along this far if not for this express purpose?
Things that could go wrong:
- She doesn't make it across the hall.
- The healing potion isn't enough to save her.
- Psimax pops back out and *splishks* her head.
- Minmax runs around the corner and knocks the mug over, spilling the healing potion uselessly across the floor.
As for me, I think she's going to make it. Why? Well, if she doesn't, it would be crushing. I know that there are some creators out there whose plots are filled with:
- New awesome plan to solve problem!
- Hopeful attempt at enacting plan! It's going to work!
- Foiled at the last second. Situation worse than before.
- Repeat ad nauseum until creator decides to end the narrative. Eventual success falls flat.
The problem with this pattern for me is that it's exhausting. The story becomes painful to keep reading, because it methodically leeches all your hope and expectations with each crushing failure.
I have so far been extremely impressed with Thunt's storytelling. He has, in the past, successfully avoided this kind of rut - the plot is ever growing and expanding instead of repeating itself in failure. Successes (major ones included) do happen, and while setbacks do as well these have never sent the characters back to square one repeatedly.
(Well, unless you argue that the MoM has done just that over 8 million times, but that's outside of what we've seen directly) 
I have no reason to expect Thunt's very successful narrative style to change now. So that is why, until shown otherwise, I anticipate that Kin will successfully drink the healing potion and survive this injury, albeit a cripple. I'm not ruling out that she could die later, but I do expect her to live for now, and for her continued existence to have significant purpose.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:37 pm
by rwstyles
mnementh wrote:I predict that Kin will reach the AnyMug, which is a sophisticated adventuring tool and will be full of super-healing potion from the river, and she will be restored enough to... knit a bowstring out of her own entrails, and using the arrow on the floor, she will kill PsiMax. A LOT.
mnem
Or, eat sushi.
We have no idea how strong this healing potion is. Just because the main "world" doesn't allow regeneration doesn't mean that this potion can't do it.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:12 pm
by RedwoodElf
rwstyles wrote:mnementh wrote:I predict that Kin will reach the AnyMug, which is a sophisticated adventuring tool and will be full of super-healing potion from the river, and she will be restored enough to... knit a bowstring out of her own entrails, and using the arrow on the floor, she will kill PsiMax. A LOT.
mnem
Or, eat sushi.
We have no idea how strong this healing potion is. Just because the main "world" doesn't allow regeneration doesn't mean that this potion can't do it.
Who ever said this world doesn't allow regeneration? The spell is probably there, it's just too high level for Forgath to cast.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:28 pm
by DuIstalri
rwstyles wrote:We have no idea how strong this healing potion is. Just because the main "world" doesn't allow regeneration doesn't mean that this potion can't do it.
Thunt stated on his twitter, I'm fairly sure, that the potion is not enough to 'fix Kin' . Hopefully he means not enough to repair the tail, instead of not enough to save her life.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:42 pm
by WearsHats
On limbs:
Regenerate is a Level 7 Cleric spell. Which means the Cleric
would have to be Level 13. Well beyond any of the main characters.
I suppose this means that Duv could technically have gone to a relatively high-level cleric to get her wing fixed, but she doesn't trust other races, goblins (with a few rare exceptions) don't take levels, and it's very hard to coerce a high-level caster, especially if you allow them to prepare and cast spells.
I suppose you could just go to a temple and pay to have the spell cast, but, according to
this spell cost calculator, the minimum cost to get someone to cast it for/on you would be 910 GP.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:47 pm
by Marnath
WearsHats wrote:On limbs:
Regenerate is a Level 7 Cleric spell. Which means the Cleric
would have to be Level 13. Well beyond any of the main characters.
I suppose this means that Duv could technically have gone to a relatively high-level cleric to get her wing fixed, but she doesn't trust other races, goblins (with a few rare exceptions) don't take levels, and it's very hard to coerce a high-level caster, especially if you allow them to prepare and cast spells.
I suppose you could just go to a temple and pay to have the spell cast, but, according to
this spell cost calculator, the minimum cost to get someone to cast it for/on you would be 910 GP.
There is no indication that
any clerics of 13th or higher level currently exist in such a low powered world. If there are it would almost certainly be more difficult to acquire their services than just walking into town and throwing a sack of coins at them.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:42 pm
by wonderdrow
It would be an interesting twist if the anymug could generate a potion that gives you legs.
A yuan-ti with legs.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:00 am
by willpell
WearsHats wrote:The PDF edition of Book 2 includes running commentary from Thunt. He points something out on that page. Take a look at the bed. Specifically, the chains attached to the bed. Wrist shackles on either side at the top, one big shackle centered at the bottom. Any questions?
How the hell do you shackle a snake anyhow? I would think Kin would just flex and stretch her tail until it wiggled free; the only way I could see a loop of metal holding a serpentine body would be if it had spikes embedded in the flesh or something.
rwstyles wrote:I would have to agree. Timing the whole make things worse cycle is important. A story where the hero's walk in and win big immediately isn't interesting.
debates taking that as a challenge
WearsHats wrote:the minimum cost to get someone to cast it for/on you would be 910 GP.
Pfft, as if that's an amount of gold, even at level 3. Level 3 WBL is 2700, and it doubles at 4, and keeps going up and up at increasingly exponential rates until you can start to afford multiple purchases of 100K gp each, only about halfway through the "paragon tier". Long before you can cast Regenerate yourself, you can afford to purchase it for what amounts to a trifling sum.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:32 am
by mertol
I think there is a special place for psimax in hell:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/03162010/ (last panel)
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:19 am
by Liesmith
If Psimax was a PC, I'd imagine his player just has a killer migraine and wants to end the game quickly to go lie down.
Re: May 07, 2013 Neutral
Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:24 am
by FliesManyKites
All right guys... on the subject of whether Kin has lost vital organs with the kersplish of her snake tail: we know
she has two stomachs.
Humans have only one stomach, as do snakes. I have no D&D experience nor knowledge on mythological snake-human hybrids of any type, so this is uninformed conjecture, but I take this to imply that Kin has some redundancy in her internal organs. They may be linked somehow, but I'll bet she has two stomachs: one in her human torso, and one in her snake body/tail.
Of course, the extent of such redundancy is certainly in question. It seems... improbable that it would extend so far as to excretory openings and reproductive systems, etc... but hey, I wouldn't put it past her to have two hearts. Some animals even have multiple hearts naturally, like octopi.
So based on that, and again I'm stretching here, but my money would be on Kin surviving as a cripple with at least one set of functioning internal organs after drinking the potion, rather than a prolonged death from loss of vital organs.