26th May 2013: Amazing

[BeanDip]

In the same vein as a reset, there's also the possibility that the Kinship will use Psimax's Engine to restore our Kin.

Finally something to call that team! In the vein of FMK and the GAP, I was going to call them the KKK but I fear that might've been unsavory

[Liesmith]

In the same vein as a reset, there's also the possibility that the Kinship will use Psimax's Engine to restore our Kin.

Finally something to call that team! In the vein of FMK and the GAP, I was going to call them the KKK but I fear that might've been unsavory

Heh, I didn't come up with that name, I saw it bounced around here since the first time they appeared, and I couldn't think of anything better.

[RedwoodElf]

In the same vein as a reset, there's also the possibility that the Kinship will use Psimax's Engine to restore our Kin.

Finally something to call that team! In the vein of FMK and the GAP, I was going to call them the KKK but I fear that might've been unsavory

Heh, I didn't come up with that name, I saw it bounced around here since the first time they appeared, and I couldn't think of anything better.

how about Kinswomen?

[SamWiser]

I like Kinship more. It reminds me of the Fellowship, and any LOTR reference you can make is a good one, in my opinion.

[LooksAndSmiles]

The Three Mus-Kin-teers? (badum - tss)

Anyway, I hope the next update will be about MinMax and Psimax, we need some action now!

[kida]

2) Create true Oblivion, but centered only on Psimax. This would remove him as the cause of Kin's injuries, and restore her. It would also probably have a whole host of side-effects on causality, but it's another option.

No. The cause still was, the result will remain. It's just that noone will remember...

No, because that's how the Pseudo-Oblivion works. Their idea is that the alt-Kins reprogram Psimax's oblivion machine to create 'true' Oblivion around him. The 'true' oblivion is distinct from the Oblivion we see in the Oblivion holes and Oblivious, and would in fact rewrite the past to account for the changes - Kins tail would reappear. Of course, Psimax's machine would never have existed either, so they could never have used it, so he wasn't erased, so

(BOOM)

For true oblivion FMK would still be attached to the wall

[currently_awake]

I think those arms will tip over the tall and narrow towers filled with boiling magic liquid. And when the two touch they burst into flames and kill everyone in the room (the doors probably locked already). Psimax will grab minmax and try to teleport back to the finish line for interrogation/study- only to discover that he can't affect the sword, leaving the pair trapped in a room about to explode.

also how does the tower head/windy arm thing keep descending when the arms get level with those towers?

I think the arms'll retract, crushing anyone (read:minmax) holding onto that part of them.

Nah, too many "bumps" on the arms which would prevent retraction.

Instead, I expect those extended, and THIN, arms would just be sheared off as the spinning thing gets down to the fire columns... so yes, anyone out there is in trouble, soon...

[Vreejack]

A reset would be a problem for them even if they have destroyed the counter. How will they get through the first trap if they know how it works? Hopefully it will only close if they learn something new. Perhaps prior understanding has no effect. Then all they need to do is confuse Minmax and the door will open.

This would work pretty well. Kin would be healed and they could walk over most of the encounters. "Grinnorarcen." Dealing with the ring team would be tricky but forewarned is forearmed. They would have to say good-bye to Oblivious, however.

[Krulle]

Why? Will the MoM be able to affect Oblivious?
Minmax confused? Easy: he grabs for his wooden sword and somehow grabs Oblivious!

[BeanDip]

I've always thought that the MoM changed as you went through it. So after a reset, FMK wouldn't encounter the same group or room again or at least not in the same order as they did this time. The treasure and tower room stay the same but the rest of the Maze switches around during a reset.

Damn though, now I can't remember if I heard that from Thunt somewhere or if I made it up in my head and am convincing myself that Thunt said it.

[Liesmith]

I think it's still possible for them to bypass that first room, even if they know how it works:

They could each just think things that they personally find confusing, and Minmax would be confused about why no one is speaking to him for that entire first room.

[RidcullyJack]

Shield of Wonder effect #07 or #08 limb regeneration (but has any Alt been mad enough to carry the Shield of Wonder into the MoM? I can't remember seeing it).

I wouldn't describe taking the SoW to the MoM as "mad". In fact, this seems to me to be the perfect place for it. You get random effects from it, so you just keep plunging into fights time after time after time till eventually, you get a dungeon run where all the random effects are in your favor. All the previous "bad luck" is erased, and you just get to see the good side of the artifact.

Cool idea! Now, what will ShieldMax have achieved with his SoW when he gets an ideal set of effects from its use?

8: Healed of all damage, inc. limb loss - repeat as needed...
15: 1 foot taller (probably advantageous to ShieldMax)
25: +1D6 to Charisma (+6)
48: Lose ability to feel pain (probably a good thing?)
51: Stone-like skin, +7 AC
52: Immune to non-magical missile attacks.
53: 2 points Strength deducted from attacker, added to weilder.
61: +2 intelligence for wearing a hat (ShieldMax should acquire a hat!)
62: If Evil, +1/2/3 Wisdom on seeing Hell.
76: Longer hair, which blows in the wind, giving +4 Charisma when talking to others who have seen it.
78: +1 to every stat - while striker is alive at least
100: SoW clones itself (because that's always fun, and now the rest of the party can join the fun of weilding a SoW).

Also, in reading the list, it might be that all those Zombies the Kinship and FMK just got past might be the result of effect 37 (all dead humanoids within 5 miles raise as zombies).

[FliesManyKites]

Also, in reading the list, it might be that all those Zombies the Kinship and FMK just got past might be the result of effect 37 (all dead humanoids within 5 miles raise as zombies).

Wow, you're right! I'm betting that was Thunt's explanation for it all along!

[Occams Meataxe]

48: Lose ability to feel pain (probably a good thing?)

A very, very bad thing

[willpell]

48: Lose ability to feel pain (probably a good thing?)

A very, very bad thing

Arguable. It can be a definite problem to not be aware you've been wounded, but on the other hand, if the character still feels everything other than pain normally, it would still be possible to notice where pain should be and intellectually comprehend the issue. As long as the character's not a sexual masochist, it could be beneficial enough to be worth occasional hassles. (Of course, by a strict reading of D&D rules, pain doesn't actually exist anyway, unless you bring in a few spells from the BOVD. However this is clearly not true in the Thuntiverse.)

[Occams Meataxe]

There are people who have no sense of pain. They tend to take a lot of damage without noticing and without stopping whatever it was they were doing.
There's a reason the sense of pain is so strongly conserved. It's Nature's way of telling you "Stop doing that, you idiot!"

[thinkslogically]

48: Lose ability to feel pain (probably a good thing?)

A very, very bad thing

Arguable. It can be a definite problem to not be aware you've been wounded, but on the other hand, if the character still feels everything other than pain normally, it would still be possible to notice where pain should be and intellectually comprehend the issue. As long as the character's not a sexual masochist, it could be beneficial enough to be worth occasional hassles. (Of course, by a strict reading of D&D rules, pain doesn't actually exist anyway, unless you bring in a few spells from the BOVD. However this is clearly not true in the Thuntiverse.)

It is a very, very bad thing.

People with insensitivity to pain have a reduced life expectancy because they don't know when they are damaging themselves. Imagine taking a dish out the oven (which has been turned off) that is still hot. You'd burn yourself and never know, because how can you know without being able to feel the heat and then the pain because it's too hot to safely touch. Pain is a good thing in terms of staying alive.

Reference: Congenital insensitivity to pain: an update

[Master TMO]

48: Lose ability to feel pain (probably a good thing?)

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It is a very, very bad thing.

People with insensitivity to pain have a reduced life expectancy because they don't know when they are damaging themselves. Imagine taking a dish out the oven (which has been turned off) that is still hot. You'd burn yourself and never know, because how can you know without being able to feel the heat and then the pain because it's too hot to safely touch. Pain is a good thing in terms of staying alive.

Reference: Congenital insensitivity to pain: an update

Nono... it makes you into a Bond villain. Haven't you ever seen World is Not Enough? If you can't feel pain, then you didn't take damage. Your skin isn't burned by holding hot rocks, your muscles and joints don't get bruised or broken or shattered. Nothing short of a massive impact directly to the heart can stop you. If you don't feel it, it didn't happen. That is how it works, right? Surely Hollywood wouldn't lie to us?

[RedwoodElf]

48: Lose ability to feel pain (probably a good thing?)

.
.
.

It is a very, very bad thing.

People with insensitivity to pain have a reduced life expectancy because they don't know when they are damaging themselves. Imagine taking a dish out the oven (which has been turned off) that is still hot. You'd burn yourself and never know, because how can you know without being able to feel the heat and then the pain because it's too hot to safely touch. Pain is a good thing in terms of staying alive.

Reference: Congenital insensitivity to pain: an update

Nono... it makes you into a Bond villain. Haven't you ever seen World is Not Enough? If you can't feel pain, then you didn't take damage. Your skin isn't burned by holding hot rocks, your muscles and joints don't get bruised or broken or shattered. Nothing short of a massive impact directly to the heart can stop you. If you don't feel it, it didn't happen. That is how it works, right? Surely Hollywood wouldn't lie to us?

Try reading Stephen R. Donaldson's "Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the unbeliever" series. Inability to feel pain is definitely bad.

[Reads_Forums]

The inability to feel pain can be positive or negative depending on the circumstances, most of the time it's bad as you tend to hurt yourself without it.

Stick two people in a burning building, one who can't feel pain the other who is overwhelmed by the pain and unable to run through the fire to the exit, in those circumstances being unable to feel pain was probably a beneficial thing. Pain is good, up to the point where it forces you to make a bad decision. Similar to fear.

In the life of an adventurer it'd probably be quite handy, compared to a regular joe, especially if you have party members who can tell you "stop doing that you idiot".

[Master TMO]

Try reading Stephen R. Donaldson's "Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the unbeliever" series. Inability to feel pain is definitely bad.

Oh, I have. That series is undoubtedly why I was aware of how far wrong the Bond example truly was.

[willpell]

People with insensitivity to pain have a reduced life expectancy because they don't know when they are damaging themselves. Imagine taking a dish out the oven (which has been turned off) that is still hot. You'd burn yourself and never know, because how can you know without being able to feel the heat and then the pain because it's too hot to safely touch. Pain is a good thing in terms of staying alive.

As I said before, if you were only insensitive to pain, rather than to everything, you'd have few problems. In the overn example, you'd still feel intense heat. Since this is a magic effect, it's safest to assume it does Exactly What It Says On The Tin, so if it says it turns off "pain" it only means "pain", whether or not that makes any biological sense.

Stick two people in a burning building, one who can't feel pain the other who is overwhelmed by the pain and unable to run through the fire to the exit, in those circumstances being unable to feel pain was probably a beneficial thing. Pain is good, up to the point where it forces you to make a bad decision. Similar to fear.

In the life of an adventurer it'd probably be quite handy, compared to a regular joe, especially if you have party members who can tell you "stop doing that you idiot".

This. Insensitivity is bad for a normal person going through a relatively safe life, unable to perceive dangers. But if you're an adventurer, you know danger is there and should be on your guard at all times; pain would be more of a distraction than a warning. (Much like the alarm klaxons that keep going off in the military bases of Deus Ex, even after Denton has killed all of the guards and hacked all of the automatic guns. At that point, the sirens are nothing but a nuisance.)

[Linkcharge]

People with insensitivity to pain have a reduced life expectancy...

But that's people born with an insensitivity to pain. they never learn what pain is or what things might cause it. That's very different from a person who is born and grows up with a sense of pain, but then loses it to a magical effect.

[Slicer]

Humans will eventually evolve (or be engineered) into feeling pain, but not being affected by pain. Intense pain has a host of attendant effects, most of which shut down potentially life-saving higher functions. The ideal human would feel the pain of running out of a burning building, but it wouldn't hinder him from doing it. Right now, we have to get by with adrenalin, which blocks pain.

Anyway, Thunt, where are all the bodies? So far we've seen people falling from high heights, getting slaughtered en masse, etc, etc... but where are their corpses? There should logically be a huge pile of them at the base of the tower, if nothing else.

[Vreejack]

Why? Will the MoM be able to affect Oblivious?
Minmax confused? Easy: he grabs for his wooden sword and somehow grabs Oblivious!

That would be awesome. But I am assuming on the reset they had already destroyed their trial counter so Minmax would already know to try for the sword Oblivious. I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work. After all, the sword sword of exists outside of time.

But anyway, I am pretty sure that the confusion trap would not be a hindrance to them, as it is pretty clear to me now that only new understanding causes the door to shut. Otherwise, given all the things that Kin understands, the door would never open. The door shut because she realized something about how it works, but it didn't stay shut because of that. So, with Minmax being confused it should be a piece of cake.

What were the other challenges? The demon is a doddle now that they know its name. They need a fast way to deal with the fellowship of the rings, but they might be able to puzzle one out using surprise, and then they need to get past the zombies. Perhaps if they move really fast they can get to the tower room without encountering anything else, then it will be finished.


As for the comment that the maze shifts about each time, I am unaware of any such effect, and it certainly isn't necessary as everyone is supposed to forget their last trip through it like it never happened. Psimax's ability to understand what is going on suggests that it has been run exactly the same for the last 800-or-so trials, at least.