What's at stake here?

[EatsAPeach]

I've been trying to get a handle on exactly what is going on with the Goblins' world, ontologically.

We've seen the "Drows," or what I tend to think of as the 'demo team,' killed and reborn a couple of times. Last time, they seemed really scared. Did Herbert snap and carve them up, as Junior? They haven't come back either.
We've seen MinMax and Forgath out of character, too. Remember the kiss? But they seem more and more agonized as the game goes on; are there big stakes or are they just really into the game now?
It's likely we saw Forgath about to die, and MinMax whisked away unable to help. Is all this emotion just "oh dang, now I have to roll up a cool new character?" or did they bet Herbert their XBoxes or something? I mean, even THunt is emotional here. What's at stake? What is death to a D&D player in this world?

If Forgath dies and MM is killed or just hangs it up and goes home, does the whole sub-plot just end? The whitey goblins take over and something bad happens to Kin offstage? Is Kin a player at the table too, or a non-player character who only responds when MM does the right thing? That would make sense; she is a prize he can win in the game, and he has to become a better person and learn a few things to win. So, the story ending in a FAIL would be one possible outcome. Would Herbert roll it on out with just the goblins, just to see how it came out?

As far as we know, no one is playing the goblins. They are NPCs in a way, executing the wishes of the world's designer by rising to become heroes. They can't appeal to Herbert or hope for a break. And they have got to be the key to this plot, because the comic ain't called MINMAX AND FORGATH'S D&D ADVENTURE.

I guess what I want to know is nothing less than what is the meaning of life, and what happens to them when they die? What's it all about? Why do the stakes seem so high for the two characters who are actually sitting around a table playing a game? I have assumed that this would be the big reveal at the end, but now everything seems to depend on the answer. I'm thinking the forum is packed with people who have ideas and clues.

[EatsAPeach]

I guess I should also have said that none of these questions are likely to have easy answers. The audacious unpredictability and originality of this story is what has kept us coming back over and over. The only situation in fantasy/SF that rings a bell is Niven and co's DREAM PARK, where the players have paid big bucks and won a lot of tournaments to compete in a game DM'ed by a Famous Expert and using millions of dollars in sets and 3D. They play as if they really are on the line, because they all have reputations and money at stake. That can't apply here; Herbert works at Kinko's and lives in his mom's basement.
Maybe, like the audience, they are all really into the story. Even Kore can't wait to find out how it ends.

[Krulle]

Seeing how easily the players of Seth Bainwraith, Drasst Don'tsue, and Tryst Drow'Den (a.k.a. Drowbabe), in their second reincarnation Baka, Tuck, and Yodette risk the lives of their characters in stupid trope-like announced actions, I think not much is at stake.
But this may be very subjective.
At least the reputation of high-level (and famous) players may be at stake, which can be seen as a high-value, like Dellyn Goblinslayers rants suggest (1, 2, 3).

So, from my point of view, at stake is your reputation as a good player. Not less, no more.
Some are beginners (see Baka, Tuck, and Yodette) who join rounds for fun but are in over their heads and loose quickly and are not really concerned with their reputation (as they are the members of the unremarkable masses), some are experts who want to defend their reputation as players who can cope with any situation and are the best.


So, death may mean nothing (low-level players), a chance for a fresh beginning (again: low-level players and beginners), a chance for eternal remembering (Goblinslayer), total defeat (again Goblinslayer),
but it always seems to mean the loss of your character. And this obviously means that a low-level character looses less that someone like Dellyn Goblinslayer's player, who invested surely hours to build the character up to that level of famousness, that other players start playing under his rule (Brassmoon Elite soldiers) instead of adventuring on their own (remember the two guards Jake and Kyle? - note: they were regular Brassmoon guards, not Elite guards).

[SUGauthor]

Sometimes I wish that this wasn't actually a D&D based comic but instead a general fantasy one. The idea that everything that entire story and everything that's happened is just the result of a bunch of average joes sitting around a table on a random Saturday really cheapens the whole experience for me. The implications that NPCs such Kin and the goblins are mere AIs which means they aren't even conscious beings or that characters like Forgath can just magically come back after death by starting a new character makes it hard to enjoy the story sometimes. Strictly speaking there is nothing stopping Forgath from just making a new character when Kore inevitably kills him, as anti-climatic as that sounds.

[EatsAPeach]

See, you guys are coming up with what I came up with; we've been shown that death is only 'roll up a new character' here. So why is whatever is coming so awful that even THunt is having to reformat himself to deal with it? Worse than death? Worse than a melting lizard guy?
SUGauthor, the fact that the characters we see are reflections of unseen players is part of the charm of this comic. Anyone can do a straight-up D&D comic. There are hundreds of them and most are awful. THunt has a gleam in his eye and a whole utility belt full of gadgets like "38 ways to kill a man with your thumb." He's not just getting a daily laugh but moving his story forward, inch by inch. There is something at the end of this road. He wrote this whole thing out years ago, ending and all.
I don't think NPC means in this world that they are not conscious beings. I suspect that it is more like they are native to this world, while the D&D players are intruders from another dimension. I wonder if he had the same kind of idea as Yahtzee did with MOGWORLD? A fantasy world is minding its own business until gamers make a computer game exactly like their world, which acts as a voodoo doll to turn them into a game full of adventurers. Madcap hijinks ensue.

And not to put too fine a point on the pencil, but THunt flinched away from whatever comes next. There's real emotion here, real grief. There's something at stake. I wonder if we already know what it is and haven't realized? Or if only the players around their card table know? Doesn't MinMax sound really young sometimes?

[Krulle]

I think it is Forgath dying.
But since we fans LOVE the smart Forgath and see him as necessary to keep MinMax somwhere on this side of common sense, THunt might have been looking for ways out of his mess.

But honestly, I do not know and am guessing hwat I'd like to see...

[Guus]

Well, I'm unlike most D&D players. I like my chars getting offed if it fits the story and I don't attach myself to them, but to the narrative of the D&D game. Which puts a lot of pressure on the DM, but that's beside the point

Imagine you are playing a certain character in a video game. You've played that game for hundreds of hours, and you've spent a gargantuan amount of time tweaking and optimizing that character. On top op that, imagine you spent those countless hours on character development, making him or her work in your current fantasy setting. Then imagine that once the character is dead, you don't have a real chance of playing that character again for months if at all, because your party needs to gather resources to revive your dead butt, if possible at all.

Now, put that train of thought into the DM, who knows he has to destroy parts of his world, be it characters, towns, a certain level of order or anything at all, to keep the story interesting for not only yourself, but mainly for the players. As someone who has been the DM a lot, that's not a great thing to do. All those things you wanted to implement, ruined by the way your players behaved or because it simply wasn't exciting enough. The story becomes better, but it's not a fun thing to do.

Now imagine yourself as the writer of a D&D comic, where you have to keep hundreds of thousands of players happy (the readers), by keeping it interesting and occasionally killing of the characters you spent so much time on tweaking and making them just right for your story. You get attached to the characters, you don't want to off them, but you HAVE to. That sucks. I can fully imagine THunt having a hard time with that.
On the other hand, I really don't believe that's the cause of what's been happening the past 6 months. I think THunt is way more sensitive than he should be when opening himself up to such a large audience, but that's his character and I'm glad he did because he has given us a story I enjoy so much. On the other hand, the fact that it affected his personal health so much (not entirely due to others, but due to himself as well) is bad. His judgement was misguided in this case, but he's recovering and taking his time, which I cheer on as loud as I can, but I doubt the story had much, if anything, to do with the current situation.

I might have misinterpreted what you were trying to say, if so, I apologize in advance.

[DoodleMoogle]

Seeing how easily the players of Seth Bainwraith, Drasst Don'tsue, and Tryst Drow'Den (a.k.a. Drowbabe), in their second reincarnation Baka, Tuck, and Yodette risk the lives of their characters in stupid trope-like announced actions, I think not much is at stake.

A bit off topic, but did any of you think that Herbert was being unnecessarily cruel to this group with the way they were offed like that. Dropping a solo boss encounter on them out of the blue like that.
Of course they were going to poke it. They're adventurers. Herbert, no. Bad Dungeon master.

[RocketScientist]

Well, they basically suck as players. Maybe Herbert is trying to get them to take their characters more seriously.

[Krulle]

It was not nice of Herbert, but then in WoW things like this happen.
You are at the wrong space at the wrong time.

And somehow your actions are interfered by a high-level action, which accidentally drops a dangerous weapon/boss in your direction, because they had to get rid of it.

Also: I did not want to say THunt has been down due to his own story.
But it may have been cumulative, with the reaction of some "fans" coming on top of knowing what will happen to the characters within a few pages.

I mean, THunt can do it (as Chief proved), but it may still be hard, and if you then receive a shitload of shitty mails from "fans", that's just piling crap on top of shit, and when too much of that manure accrues, something may break.



Well, at stake is the reputation and the beloved character of the player.
And if your character is dead, you either
1 ditch the game, or
2a have to create a new char and play with a different group, or somehow (possibly meaning you have to arrange a different regular play-time than you had before)
2b find a way to get contact to your old group and get in as a low-level player in that high-level group.
So, your friends and time-planning is at stake too, when you lose.

[SUGauthor]

Well Thunt tweeted before vanishing that the next three pages would "blow our fucking minds" right after assuring us that he doesn't normally swear or brag about himself, so I really doubt he was worried about the fans reacting badly. I'd say it was actually the opposite, he was worried that he wouldn't be able to portray such an awesome scene correctly. Also, I don't see why permanent death in D&D comics are any harder to deal with than permanent death in any other story. Any author can get attached to his characters.

[EatsAPeach]

"I might have misinterpreted what you were trying to say, if so, I apologize in advance." Oh hell no, because I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say. I think SUG is on track about THunt saying he was about to blow our minds, though. Were we about to meet the players around their tables and see who MM and Forgath really are? Gaze upon the naked face of Herbert himself? although I'm betting on facial hair for Herb.
Krulle, I don't think Herbert is being cruel so much as that these clowns are THunt's demo of how life works in this universe. I don't think they are important to the story except to demo game mechanics. They roll up characters and die. Then they do it again. This could happen to MM and Forgath too, apparently. And it shouldn't be this big a deal, yet it is, and I think not just for THunt. Clap your hands if you believe in fairies! Why are we here if not to support THunt and his world? We don't want them to die, but more than that we don't want them to fail. Dulce et decorum est, pro amor mori. MinMax dying for a comrade would be a win. Forgath dying alone at the hands of a loony paladin is a loss. Die if you must, but die well and make a story to tell in Val Halla!
And thanx, this is what I was asking. Maybe it is the same thing affecting THunt that is affecting his players: a story like this DESERVES to be told well and end well. They deserve a win, and so does THunt.

[EatsAPeach]

This is long, but it expresses some of what I've been thinking about. If you don't know Terry Pratchett, MORT is a good starting place. This is what he says about stories in WITCHES ABROAD:
People think that stories are shaped by people. In fact, itÔÇÖs the other way around.
Stories exist independently of their players. If you know that, the knowledge is power.
Stories, great flapping ribbons of shaped space-time, have been blowing and uncoiling around the universe since the beginning of time. And they have evolved. The weakest have died and the strongest have survived and they have grown fat on the retelling stories, twisting and blowing through the darkness.
And their very existence overlays a faint but insistent pattern on the chaos that is history. Stories etch grooves deep enough for people to follow in the same way that water follows certain paths down a mountainside. And every time fresh actors tread the path of the story, the groove runs deeper.
This is called the theory of narrative causality, and it means that a story, once started, takes a shape. It picks up all the vibrations of all the other workings of that story that have ever been.
This is why history keeps repeating all the time.
So a thousand heroes have stolen fire from the gods. A thousand wolves have eaten grandmothers. A thousand princesses have been kissed. A million unknowing actors have moved, unknowing, through the pathways of story.
It is now impossible for the third and youngest son of any king, if he should embark on a quest which has so far claimed his older brothers, not to succeed.
Stories donÔÇÖt care who takes part in them. All that matters is that the story gets told, that the story repeats. Or, if you prefer to think of it like this: stories are a parasitical life form, warping lives in the service only of the story itself.

This story will burst out of THunt's chest and go on a rampage if he doesn't tame and control it. The princess has a snake tail, and so what? She MUST be kissed. The Swordsman hasn't stolen infinity from the Gods just to stand by and watch. The Goblins, with every hand against them and no advantages, will climb that glass mountain, win the kingdom, get the girl, and live happily ever after. IF they don't, The Story will rip itself free from its frozen grave and walk abroad with glowing red eyes, looking for closure and an ending. In other words, GOBLINS will return.

[Kore]

"What's at stake here?"

Life as we know it, that is what is at stake.

Psi Max may find other ways than a pocket universe to interact with other worlds.

Herbert is in this world. Herbert has associated with evil. Evil is like a seed, it will spread if not stopped.

[EatsAPeach]

But since this world is ostensibly a creation of Herbert's, can we actually say that He is in this world at all? They have to invoke His presence to address Him or gain power from Him. And is He truly evil, or just uncaring, or even Darwinian? If He created the world, good and evil alike, then how can He be completely evil? And what the heck IS life as we know it? A game? A deed? A way to kill a few hours? The difference between boredom and adventure?

[Guus]

Eats a Peach, I feel like I'm reading H.P. Lovecraft's stories from the cultist's point of view when I read some of your posts
You sure have a way of making abstract art with words!

[EatsAPeach]

Trying to see THunt's universe from inside is definitely warping my poor old brain. Debating reality with "Kore" is no easier.

[BuildsLegos]

Between the holier-than-thou terminator, the dominatrix demigod, and the shape-shifting vampire; I'd say the stakes are only the lives of everyone on Herbert's imaginary continent! And shoot, that's not even counting the two major villains who've already died.

[EatsAPeach]

Right, but they and their author seem too upset for this to just be a D&D game where the dungeonmaster was too tough for his players. Like I said, did they bet Herbert their XBoxes or large sums of money? I think we may be a panel or two from finding out what's behind curtain number three.

[MonsiuerGeneral]

Completely pulling this from the nether regions with no *real* evidence to support except a tiny anecdote (kinda)...but what if the actual player of Forgath has died or is dying and Herbert has written up a heroic last stand for his friend?

I thought about it because I was in a campaign where one of our group had to move away right before we were supposed to encounter this epic boss chick. She (the player) wasn't going to be back or be able to be in touch for such an extended time that the DM had decided to write up an "ending" to her character where, due to circumstances, she tried to take on the boss and a horde of undead on her own. It was a really cool last moment for her character.

I know our friend moving away is not nearly on the same level as a player dying...but honestly something like that would have blown my mind. Especially since despite the occasional comedic references and 4th wall breaking quips, you easily forget this really is all just a D&D game.

Probably WAY off mark, but just a thought.

[BuildsLegos]

To be fair, I just wanted an excuse to creatively describe the villains.

[EatsAPeach]

Completely pulling this from the nether regions with no *real* evidence to support except a tiny anecdote (kinda)...but what if the actual player of Forgath has died or is dying and Herbert has written up a heroic last stand for his friend?

There is something like that in Tad Williams' OTHERWORLD series, which is long but worth slogging through; one of the players isn't very healthy in RL and the game is his life, and when they are all locked into the game he has the least to lose.

You see it too, though. They are way too involved in this for a simple game. The stakes are high somehow.

[EatsAPeach]

Looks like THunt is about to relaunch. GOBLINS is unstoppable.

[MakesPie]

When I am reading Goblins I keep thinking to myself "I wish my players were this into their characters" Is it possible that their are multiple groups operating in the goblins world? Maybe the goblin adventuring party and monster party are just other rival players who Herbert DMs for. That could be why the stakes are so high.

[Wolfie]

When I am reading Goblins I keep thinking to myself "I wish my players were this into their characters" Is it possible that their are multiple groups operating in the goblins world? Maybe the goblin adventuring party and monster party are just other rival players who Herbert DMs for. That could be why the stakes are so high.

In the current campaign I'm playing in, our players ARE that into their characters. In fact, we occasionally refer to some of the people as their characters outside of the game. (I get called Saadi a lot).