Comic July 24, 2015: Sweep the leg!

[GathersIngredients]

Link (unshaded version so far): http://www.goblinscomic.org/comics/20150724.jpg


I really enjoy the grin THAC0's drawing up in panel 6 and the way he's crouched in panel 7. Makes me wish I could create and make look good battle postures like that.

[Krulle]

(note: the rules demand putting the Month not as a number, to avoid misinterpretation. Jul or July is acceptable.
"On new updates", point 3)

another action scene comic.
The constructs have the same advantage of wearing blindfolds...
He should not be that overwhelming...
Apparently, the constructs are not great fighters though...


Edit: the transcription:

► Show Spoiler

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Thaco (thinking): Two attacks. high from the right, low from the left.

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SFX: Thwmp
SFX: Whump

SFX: Claunk
SFX: Clank

SFX: Shclunk
SFX: Clunk

Minmax: Holy crap! He's gone Jedi!
Fumbles (Senor Vorpal Kickass'o): Sweep the leg!
Forehead Fumbles: Monster

unshaded image

[RocketScientist]

(note: the rules demand putting the Month not as a number, to avoid misinterpretation. Jul or July is acceptable.
"On new updates", point 3)

Fixed now in both this, and the previous comic's threads. Thanks for pointing it out.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

The constructs have the same advantage of wearing blindfolds...
He should not be that overwhelming...
Apparently, the constructs are not great fighters though...

I might suggest that they are indeed a level or two lower than he is, but with the blindfolds, they are each individually boosted to be ... if not better, then at least nearing his competency. Using the blindfold himself would definitely turn it from 'six 2nd level monks beating up a 3rd level monk' back to 'a 3rd level monk smacking around six 1st level monks'. At low levels, a +1 or +2 to AC or your attack bonus is a major shift; a bonus to both (which is what I'd call this, per the discussion in the previous post's discussion thread) is going to shift things heavily in your favor.

That said, I think that this might be a matter of 'six on one' instead of 'the headbands work for the constructs'. Viewing the first fight sequence, it goes like this:

• They miss.
• He hits.
• They hit.
• He blocks (aka they miss).
• He dodges (the leap, aka they miss).
• He hits.
• They hit.
• They presumably hit (the grab that's implied in the image of the next attack).
• They hit.

So in 3.5/PF mode, they're getting three attacks for every one he's getting, but they've hit only four times out of seven - and one of those times was because he was grabbed. He, on the other hand, has hit both times - it's just that it's a 3-on-1 (actually more, but the GM is nice, 3-on-1 is the most he's saying can close at once?) and even if you're pretty good, if they're in striking distance (pun intended) they're gonna hit you some times. In the current set, they attack twice (perhaps because the third was too far away), and miss both times because of the bonus he's now receiving. Afterwards, you see him use 'flurry of blows' twice. Since he's already hitting at a BAB of +2, if he's getting a +2 bonus, his +1/+1 flurry of blows gets boosted to +3/+3, and so now he's kicking ass.

... I think I'm liking the +2 AC, +2 BAB, +2 Reflex saves thing. Even if it's just +1 to each, that's a significant increase in capability for a 3rd level character.

[Stardance]

As a martial artist, this update makes me so happy on so many levels. Thank you, Thunt!

[spiderwrangler]

Tarol Hunt/Stephens ÔÇÅ@Thunt_Goblins 8h8 hours ago
Dammit. That last line is supposed to come from Fumbles, not Minmax. I'll fix it in the morning.

[Hjerne]

I don't think the blindfolds work for the statues. This is the sort of DM created item that lets players have a chance in an otherwise impossible situation. And I bet it doesn't work outside the room.

[SpeaksManyLanguages]

The smirk looked better in the pencils

► Show Spoiler

This is what supporting Tarol on Patreon gets you: early view of pages!

[Talos]

And what were the odds that the opponents just happen to be roughly goblin-sized? And made of material that won't break Thaco's uncovered hands or feet?

Almost like the time the deadly axe just happened to not be able to harm a paladin.

Or the time those monsters in the jail could be released just in time and could be convinced to go down the same path, right into the heavily armed forces.

Or the time a soul-eating demon happened to eat a creature with two souls in him (sorta).

I could go on. Contrived coincidences, where would webcomics be without you?

Actually, in a much, much better place. Most of them suck really bad.

[RocketScientist]

What does it matter what size they are? He's not putting on something that has been specifically fitted to them. It's a piece of cloth he's tying around his head. And how many opponents are there in D&D that would break somebody's hands and feet? Most opponents are made of flesh.

As for the monsters in the jail, they were running for the gate out of town. It would seem like "out of town" might be a logical direction for them to run. But nobody ever said that they all went that way.

[Talos]

What does it matter what size they are? He's not putting on something that has been specifically fitted to them. It's a piece of cloth he's tying around his head. And how many opponents are there in D&D that would break somebody's hands and feet? Most opponents are made of flesh.

As for the monsters in the jail, they were running for the gate out of town. It would seem like "out of town" might be a logical direction for them to run. But nobody ever said that they all went that way.

Well, a large horde of them ran that way. Probably most of them. Right into the soldiers, where most died. Logical in theory, not so much in practice.

Non-flesh opponents? Well, there are constructs, incorporeal enemies (blows from limbs might just pass through), beings wearing metal armor, elementals (especially fire and earth), any number of magical beings, or a creature which is for any reason too hard to safely hit, such as one with spikes or the like. I suppose that these constructs must be made of a relatively soft material.

That said, I guess the cloth is okay. Very lucky that it gives him an advantage that he really needs at just this time. Like just the right power-up being present in a video game at just the right time for a specific fight.

[HuntsAPanda]

I think Thaco should be taking off the cloth headbands from the constructs to make them less effective.

It's the first thing I thought of when I saw them. (Take off the headbands and see what happens.)

[Talos]

All this being said, all of the contrivances serve a purpose if it gives Thaco a "solo scene." Well, he's the only one fighting at the moment.

[robertskitch]

I love Vorpal's face in this one.

[Krulle]

And what were the odds that the opponents just happen to be roughly goblin-sized? And made of material that won't break Thaco's uncovered hands or feet.

[...]

Or the time those monsters in the jail could be released just in time and could be convinced to go down the same path, right into the heavily armed forces.

Well, most dungeons and adventures are designed to be a challenge, but survivable for the players.
So it's quite okay that once the advantage of creatures is negated, they are underpowered...

In a real-life dungeon you'd make it as hard as possible, and that includes overwhelming force and also deadly forces if possible. And not restraining the defensive powers to just be a challenge....

The Brassmoon battle and the monsters fleeing directly towards the gates: those are not ordinary monsters. They are intelligent monsters.
They know hiding will not help.
They've been told where the exit is.
They've been asked for help in exchange of Thunt opening the gates of the cells.
They've been told that once this battle is over, there will be no second attempt at freeing them.
I find their frontal attack not that surprising....

[Guus]

Talos, every story has convenient plot moments that somehow conveniently further the story in one way or the other.
Eragon just happens to meet a powerful witch that can predict the future.
Frodo just happens to accidentally put on the One Ring when he falls off a table.

Every coincidence in a story is contrived, the story isn't real. Apparently, it's a bit too extreme for your taste, and although I did find the "double soul is not according the contract" pretty far fetched, the other examples you give aren't that weird, even the Axe of Prissan, because it's an integral part of the story, not just a single plot point.

In my own campaigns, I use these extremes, and you kind of have to in my opinion. You don't want your players to run off to another city to get something done and leave what they were doing just to further a bit of plot. No, suddenly there is this one portal they can use to quickly get by, which they happen to find after a mage that uses teleportation spells attacked them and accidentally permanently altered one of the player's body, which he can use to activate the portal. Now THAT is contrived coincidence, and it works like a charm in D&D, more so than the "realistic" plot points.

The monk scene, in my opinion, is an extremely tame version of a contrived coincidence, if I'd call it that at all.

[RocketScientist]

I think I'd rather be killed by the guards than taken back to Goblinslayer's dungeon. Better to take your chances at the gate. Worst case, you end up in the afterlife plane for your alignment.

[Xavier78]

I think I'd rather be killed by the guards than taken back to Goblinslayer's dungeon. Better to take your chances at the gate. Worst case, you end up in the afterlife plane for your alignment.

Is that true in Hunts world? If that was the case wouldn't it be commonly known that Monsters aren't all evil and need eradicated? After all, Adventurers are resurrected all the time and Lawful Good ones would see LG "Monsters" in the afterlife...

[nikohl]

In "real" D&D, you can make a Knowledge check and if you roll high enough, one of the questions you can ask of the DM is the standard book-listed alignment of the monster you're looking at. For example, Trolls are "usually CE", Blink Dogs are "usually LG". Adventurers who have skill points to spare for book learnin' should already know that all monsters aren't evil.

Alignment's already dodgy as anything in D&D, since "being Evil" means you're wandering around thinking evil bad guy thoughts all the time and you know it. To use an example of why that's weird, Hitler was "Evil", but I bet he didn't -think- he was. He thought he was doing the right thing. (I know, I know, immediate introduction of Hitler into the discussion, but he's a really easy example.)

Over and above that, alignment's shown to be even more difficult to represent in the Goblins comic, since the "usually NE" Goblin is shown to be not-evil and apparently most other monsters we've come across that aren't actively being antagonists (Duv, etc) seem to be averaging at Neutral, just chilling out being alive until they get beaten up by adventurers 'because they're monsters'. It's clearly nonstandard and I don't claim to get it; but, I don't even get alignment in real D&D, thinking about it too much makes my head hurt. I accept it's a decent enough way to make all the spells and stuff work in the game, but it's so subjective and perspective-based and argh.

From a perspective-y point of view: In Goblinslayer's case I've chosen to assume his alignment is "Murderer Neutral" and he just likes an excuse to kill things, therefore not caring about their alignments in the slightest and leading his gullible human pawns by fear and/or charisma. Kore's alignment is "Cursed-as-Balls" and he views -everything- as evil and to be destroyed. The groups of tropey adventurers who keep appearing and dying are "Neutral Stupid", playing entirely into the book info as it's written specifically as a foil for the comic's initial 'Life through their Eyes' thing and to highlight the nonstandard alignments of the world. At least, that's how I'm having it in my head.

[Xavier78]

That was a good read. Thank you nikohl.

[Arch Lich Burns]

Even creatures that are 'always evil' are not always evil. Example: a succubus can become a paladin. It's very rare but it can happen. My thought on the book examples is that the human/elven/gnome races deemed those races as bad because they do not get the culture or only based it upon a few examples and those who acted in that way confirmed the sterotype.

I don't think people being evil can be based off of evil thoughts. same with good. as long as you do not act upon those you are not that alignment.

It is why I think unthinking undead should be neutral creatures. Even if it was powered by evil magic does not make it evil. Just...rude. Also why if there are alternate ways of becoming a Lich, they should not be automatically evil.

[RocketScientist]

I think I'd rather be killed by the guards than taken back to Goblinslayer's dungeon. Better to take your chances at the gate. Worst case, you end up in the afterlife plane for your alignment.

Is that true in Hunts world? If that was the case wouldn't it be commonly known that Monsters aren't all evil and need eradicated? After all, Adventurers are resurrected all the time and Lawful Good ones would see LG "Monsters" in the afterlife...

IIRC, Thunt said resurrection is rare in his world. But maybe adventurers don't remember the afterlife once they've been resurrected.

Or maybe when they say "hey, I saw goblins in the Seven Heavens," they get the same reaction that I would get if I said I saw goblins in the grocery store.

Wherever their afterlife is, presumably they can get to one they'd like. Their gods are somewhere, granting cleric spells. Or doing whatever gods with no adventuring clerics do with their... shamans? Witchdoctors?

[nikohl]

That was a good read. Thank you nikohl.

Can't tell if sarcasm or genuine appreciation of wall of D&D nerd text Going to assume the one that makes me happy. You're welcome! I'm glad my thinking-too-much about D&D (and occasionally the comic) was beneficial.

[Guus]

D&D nerd text is best nerd text.

To add something I believe we already discussed here once before: alignment is also a thing in itself. It's your alignment that dictates your behaviour (as a creature/monster, but often also as a player if you want to get rulelawyer-y), not your deity. However, a deity's alignment should correspond with yours. Alignment is a cosmic force of some kind, not just a set of different morality boxes. It's not culture, it's natural law. I doubt anyone ever really plays it like that, but still.

I personally like the alignment system because if I want to play a type of character, it helps to have some set of rules that allow you to guide your character into that personality. On the other hand, I play 4E, and as far as I know 4e players only use alignment as base guide lines, not cosmic ruling. As it should be, IMHO.

[Morgaln]

Talos, every story has convenient plot moments that somehow conveniently further the story in one way or the other.

Frodo just happens to accidentally put on the One Ring when he falls off a table.

That one I have to contest; this is not an accident. The One Ring has a mind of its own and wants to return to Sauron; it does try to make Frodo wear it to get Sauron's attention. It's more obvious in the movies than in the books (think of the top of Amon Hen in "The Fellowship of the Ring" and Osgiliath in "The Two Towers" for just two examples in the films), but they both have it. That makes this a plot point, not a coincidence. It's also hinted that the whole reason Gollum lost the ring in "The Hobbit" is the first step of the ring to return to its master. That it is Bilbo and not some random orc who finds the ring, that is a coincidence; a rather unlikely one, even, but one that is required for the story to work, and it will serve to make your point.

D&D nerd text is best nerd text.

To add something I believe we already discussed here once before: alignment is also a thing in itself. It's your alignment that dictates your behaviour (as a creature/monster, but often also as a player if you want to get rulelawyer-y), not your deity. However, a deity's alignment should correspond with yours. Alignment is a cosmic force of some kind, not just a set of different morality boxes. It's not culture, it's natural law. I doubt anyone ever really plays it like that, but still.

I personally like the alignment system because if I want to play a type of character, it helps to have some set of rules that allow you to guide your character into that personality. On the other hand, I play 4E, and as far as I know 4e players only use alignment as base guide lines, not cosmic ruling. As it should be, IMHO.

I'd say that it is not alignment that dictates behavior but behavior that dictates alignment. If alignment (i. e. an outside source) was responsible for behavior and enforcing it, characters couldn't go against their alignment; for example, it would be impossible for a paladin to fall in that case, because they couldn't perform any action that isn't in sync with their alignment. However, nothing is preventing any character (PC or NPC) to do things that violate their alignment; there is no cosmic force in D&D that mysteriously stays a lawful good character's hand when they're about to perform murder. That said, in 2nd and 3rd edition at least, alignment is somewhat tangible, as there are powers and spells that will have effect on creatures of certain alignment. That makes it an in-game reality and not just an abstract stat on the character sheet.