August 23, 2016: They just.... disagree...

[Catmandont]

Permalink: http://www.goblinscomic.org/08282016-2/

Oh boy, things are getting serious. What does the demon mean by 'almost as pure as the one trapped in the first Prissan'?

He could mean that Kore himself IS trapped within his own body, but I'll have to go back and check for evidence.

[Aegis J Hyena]

I'm beginning to think Kore is the "first Prissan" -- we did see all those souls "attached" to him. Perhaps they're not souls of those he's slain... but demons ("fleas"?) off of the demon deity.

Edit: The demon's line -- "Belong to me"... nonhostile contact with an evil outsider / demon IS one of the requirements for Blackguard... what a twist THAT would be. Granted, Ears is what, only level 4 or maaaaaaybe 5 by now, so it's not much.

I don't see Ears doing that anyway. Far more likely he kills an innocent in the guise of ending evil ("oh gods ears what have you done" from so so so long ago).

[Catmandont]

I'm beginning to think Kore is the "first Prissan" -- we did see all those souls "attached" to him. Perhaps they're not souls of those he's slain... but demons ("fleas"?) off of the demon deity.

If I remember correctly, we've seen familiar faces in Kore's IME 'wings', such as Hawl the Trader, Chief and other non-demons that Kore had killed.

[Aegis J Hyena]

Maybe the wings are just the souls of his sins -- innocents killed... the screaming faces on his head under his helmet might be demons.

[GovernmentSpook]

Welp. That explains why Names didn't go nuts with pain like Mryorg. Now I'm wondering if it was a lesser demon that further turned Names, or if it was still the presence of the demon deity that did it. Either way, can't wait for the next pages.

[Rndom]

Also, notice the quick question doge about Kore being evil in panels 4 to 5.

[Arch Lich Burns]

Kore is defently evil, he killed a child with terrible reasoning, he killed a blind goblin whom was unable to defeaf himself, he tortured a goblin just for convenience.

[YardMeat]

I think it is pretty well established that Kore himself is the first Prissan. And now the flea demon has let slip that there is some sort of "pure soul" in the first Prissan. What if the curse compels Kore to perform constant evil acts in order to keep some sort of good being imprisoned, just like the Axe requires constant good acts to keep an evil being imprisoned?

[WearsHats]

Yeah, I'm hoping Al Dente tells us more about the nature of Kore's curse. Kore himself said that, in his view, even potential evil must be destroyed. So he thinks he's acting for Good, and he still has his paladin powers so it has to be the curse forcing him to do it, whatever Al may try to imply. I do wonder if the pure paladin soul he's referring to is Kore's. He'd have to have been very pure to have made the axe.

Meantime, I'm not sure what to hope about the Silly String of Doom. It looks cool, but I don't want it to destroy the universe, but it takes Thunt a lot of time to draw, but we're getting so much information...

[Caltera]

So much storytelling tips in this page. So much creepyness, I dream of the day I'd be able to plant a situation like this in one of my game and make it feel to the players the same way I felt when I ride this page

And now I'm wondering. My guess was that the curse was placed upon Kore when he built the axe by the demon, to force him to commit evil until he unleash the demon he trapped. Now that we know that the first prissan have some good inside, I want only one thing... What if Kore finally overcome the curse and sacrifice himself to destroy the Demon... That'd be inside Ears. Yeah. At first, Ears wasn't a part of the story, but as we get emotionnaly attached to him, he became one of our most loved goblins. We see him seriously doubting here and the last pages.

What a twist it'd be if Ears release the demon, the demon possess Ear, Kore is freed from the curse while the demon is freed from the axe, and a final confrontation makes ears dying along with kore redempting. This way Ears will be out of the story and we'll be on the way to the end of the story, the confrontation with Junior. That would be a trully heart breaking moment to live, as the death of chief, but man, what a twist.

The more I discover the story, the more I admire thunt story telling. Keep on, i'm hooked from 3 years ago and will still be in 3 years ^^

[Makes Noises]

The unbearable lightness of the burden of painlessness...

[Talos]

Evil people and groups are way likelier to fight in reality than two good people who disagree. Just look at what Hitler's Germany and Stalin's USSR. Iraq and Iran. The Sino-Soviet split. The Spanish Civil War. In fact, the best evidence we have suggests that good people and groups do NOT fight each other much and just disagree. That's what the democratic peace theory is, and that's the closest thing we have to an ironclad law in international relations. In stories, good guys sometimes fight each other over a misunderstanding or (more rarely) ideological difference, but they're usually over it by the end. Villains are the ones who backstab each other. Just look at the Sith for an easy example.

Now, it's not my comic so Thunt can do whatever he wants, it's just nothing that has any basis in reality or fact. Or how people actually think or operate. Good people forgive and agree to disagree. Bad people are (among others) the fanatics who demand 100% ideological purity from others or "you're a racist/sexist/heretic/reactionary/whatever!"

[Sessine]

"Two evil creatures won't assume the other to be good." Well, in our world there are very, very few creatures who acknowledge themselves to be evil. Just about everyone, no matter how evil, self-identifies as good, or at worst a victim of circumstances. Their opponent is the one who is Evil.

Demons, though, and other officially evil creatures in D&D, don't just act evil. They also self-identify as Evil.

"They just... disagree." I took this to be a euphemism for "tear each other to pieces if they can."

It's interesting, however, that they don't shout 'You're Good' at each other. When there's a fight, they just fight.


Incidentally, I don't think we are supposed to believe everything this demon says. It seems remarkably willing to explain, but it's a freaking demon, so I would be on the lookout for lies, lies by omission, and twisted half-truths. Even if it's telling the truth as it sees it, its point of view is alien; I wouldn't rely on our heroes properly understanding what it means.

[SamWiser]

Evil people and groups are way likelier to fight in reality than two good people who disagree. Just look at what Hitler's Germany and Stalin's USSR. Iraq and Iran. The Sino-Soviet split. The Spanish Civil War. In fact, the best evidence we have suggests that good people and groups do NOT fight each other much and just disagree. That's what the democratic peace theory is, and that's the closest thing we have to an ironclad law in international relations. In stories, good guys sometimes fight each other over a misunderstanding or (more rarely) ideological difference, but they're usually over it by the end. Villains are the ones who backstab each other. Just look at the Sith for an easy example.

Now, it's not my comic so Thunt can do whatever he wants, it's just nothing that has any basis in reality or fact. Or how people actually think or operate. Good people forgive and agree to disagree. Bad people are (among others) the fanatics who demand 100% ideological purity from others or "you're a racist/sexist/heretic/reactionary/whatever!"

Like Sessine said, it's a demon. Even if it isn't trying to lie to them, it's views on morality and philosophy might be slightly twisted.

But to counter your point, even in the worst of those situations you mentioned, few of the people involved believed they were evil. Even in the midst of the dark times in the USSR, Stalin believed that rapid industrial growth was the only way to save his country, and sacrificing lives was the best way to do it. His fear tactics were remarkable at getting people moving, too. One could even argue that he was right because, if he hadn't forced such advancement, they would have been massacred in WWII, about a decade after he started his rule. To Stalin, whatever evils may have been committed were seen as good, because they were actions that were remarkably successful at keeping the USSR intact during and after WWII, but to the US, who never had to resort to those measures, they are seen as evil. That is what I think the demon was getting at.

[Talos]

Evil people and groups are way likelier to fight in reality than two good people who disagree. Just look at what Hitler's Germany and Stalin's USSR. Iraq and Iran. The Sino-Soviet split. The Spanish Civil War. In fact, the best evidence we have suggests that good people and groups do NOT fight each other much and just disagree. That's what the democratic peace theory is, and that's the closest thing we have to an ironclad law in international relations. In stories, good guys sometimes fight each other over a misunderstanding or (more rarely) ideological difference, but they're usually over it by the end. Villains are the ones who backstab each other. Just look at the Sith for an easy example.

Now, it's not my comic so Thunt can do whatever he wants, it's just nothing that has any basis in reality or fact. Or how people actually think or operate. Good people forgive and agree to disagree. Bad people are (among others) the fanatics who demand 100% ideological purity from others or "you're a racist/sexist/heretic/reactionary/whatever!"

Like Sessine said, it's a demon. Even if it isn't trying to lie to them, it's views on morality and philosophy might be slightly twisted.

But to counter your point, even in the worst of those situations you mentioned, few of the people involved believed they were evil. Even in the midst of the dark times in the USSR, Stalin believed that rapid industrial growth was the only way to save his country, and sacrificing lives was the best way to do it. His fear tactics were remarkable at getting people moving, too. One could even argue that he was right because, if he hadn't forced such advancement, they would have been massacred in WWII, about a decade after he started his rule. To Stalin, whatever evils may have been committed were seen as good, because they were actions that were remarkably successful at keeping the USSR intact during and after WWII, but to the US, who never had to resort to those measures, they are seen as evil. That is what I think the demon was getting at.

It doesn't matter if they think they are evil or not, especially in a D&D-type setting where such things are objectively measurable. I wasn't talking about ruthless industrialization, but of Stalin in relation to Hitler. An external affair, not one on the inside. Hitler backstabbed Stalin for ideological reasons. Both were evil, even if at least Hitler didn't see things that way (I have some doubts that Stalin believed in good and evil, although Hitler did). Hitler and Stalin didn't "just disagree", the former tried to annihilate the latter in a war of extermination. That's just about as far from what this "flea demon" said as it is possible to do. Same thing with Iran (Shiite theocracy) vs. Iraq (secular Baathist dictatorship, although Hussein was himself a Sunni). Both under evil governments, both certainly "just disagreeing." Same thing again with the USSR vs. Japan in the war over Mongolia in the 1930s. Or all of the sides in the Spanish Civil War (not a one of them was fighting for anything remotely free), and let's not get started with the evil vs. evil we see in countless African civil wars. Happens all the time.

And it is generally accepted that his killings were not only unnecessary to industrialize the USSR, but actively slowed it down. The rapid industrialization of the Soviet Union was a continuation of the rapid industrialization of Russia prior to World War One. The closest thing to all of those deaths being "necessary" was when he traded food for machinery from the rest of Europe. Even then, millions of extra workers and not having to deal with the expenses related to the man-made famines and other extra deaths due to his policies would have helped industrialize the country further. Any talk of those killings being "necessary" is just a way to cover his bad behavior. Japan industrialized almost as quickly with far less manpower and fewer resources, and no mass murder. It could have been done without mass killings. Those were just a way for the communists to get rid of their "class enemies" and suspected "traitors", but that is another story.

[Morgaln]

Evil people and groups are way likelier to fight in reality than two good people who disagree. Just look at what Hitler's Germany and Stalin's USSR. Iraq and Iran. The Sino-Soviet split. The Spanish Civil War. In fact, the best evidence we have suggests that good people and groups do NOT fight each other much and just disagree. That's what the democratic peace theory is, and that's the closest thing we have to an ironclad law in international relations. In stories, good guys sometimes fight each other over a misunderstanding or (more rarely) ideological difference, but they're usually over it by the end. Villains are the ones who backstab each other. Just look at the Sith for an easy example.

Now, it's not my comic so Thunt can do whatever he wants, it's just nothing that has any basis in reality or fact. Or how people actually think or operate. Good people forgive and agree to disagree. Bad people are (among others) the fanatics who demand 100% ideological purity from others or "you're a racist/sexist/heretic/reactionary/whatever!"

Like Sessine said, it's a demon. Even if it isn't trying to lie to them, it's views on morality and philosophy might be slightly twisted.

But to counter your point, even in the worst of those situations you mentioned, few of the people involved believed they were evil. Even in the midst of the dark times in the USSR, Stalin believed that rapid industrial growth was the only way to save his country, and sacrificing lives was the best way to do it. His fear tactics were remarkable at getting people moving, too. One could even argue that he was right because, if he hadn't forced such advancement, they would have been massacred in WWII, about a decade after he started his rule. To Stalin, whatever evils may have been committed were seen as good, because they were actions that were remarkably successful at keeping the USSR intact during and after WWII, but to the US, who never had to resort to those measures, they are seen as evil. That is what I think the demon was getting at.

It doesn't matter if they think they are evil or not, especially in a D&D-type setting where such things are objectively measurable. I wasn't talking about ruthless industrialization, but of Stalin in relation to Hitler. An external affair, not one on the inside. Hitler backstabbed Stalin for ideological reasons. Both were evil, even if at least Hitler didn't see things that way (I have some doubts that Stalin believed in good and evil, although Hitler did). Hitler and Stalin didn't "just disagree", the former tried to annihilate the latter in a war of extermination. That's just about as far from what this "flea demon" said as it is possible to do. Same thing with Iran (Shiite theocracy) vs. Iraq (secular Baathist dictatorship, although Hussein was himself a Sunni). Both under evil governments, both certainly "just disagreeing." Same thing again with the USSR vs. Japan in the war over Mongolia in the 1930s. Or all of the sides in the Spanish Civil War (not a one of them was fighting for anything remotely free), and let's not get started with the evil vs. evil we see in countless African civil wars. Happens all the time.

And it is generally accepted that his killings were not only unnecessary to industrialize the USSR, but actively slowed it down. The rapid industrialization of the Soviet Union was a continuation of the rapid industrialization of Russia prior to World War One. The closest thing to all of those deaths being "necessary" was when he traded food for machinery from the rest of Europe. Even then, millions of extra workers and not having to deal with the expenses related to the man-made famines and other extra deaths due to his policies would have helped industrialize the country further. Any talk of those killings being "necessary" is just a way to cover his bad behavior. Japan industrialized almost as quickly with far less manpower and fewer resources, and no mass murder. It could have been done without mass killings. Those were just a way for the communists to get rid of their "class enemies" and suspected "traitors", but that is another story.

Let me start by saying that I completely disagree with the demon myself and that its reasoning why evil is winning makes no sense at all to me. Especially since it seems to imply that evil does not infight on grounds of ideological differences. That completely ignores the Law-Chaos axis, which is as much of an ideology as Good and Evil are in D&D.

But I think calling any real world country, government or other group evil is highly inappropriate. Real world morality doesn't work the same way as the black-and-white mechanic D&D alignments give us. In our world, morality is subjective and largely influenced by culture and religion. People don't do things because they follow some outside divine force, they act like they do because they think what they do is right, or at least necessary. In most cases, the bad things that do happen are due to to emotions caused by the social and economic situation people are in. Just passing it off as "they're evil" is ignoring how complicated our world actually is. There's rarely a group that is all good or all bad, and if someone tries to claim there is, it's propaganda. Just as an example, Hitler loved animals, and thus he created very sophisticated animal rights laws. Laws that are to a large extent still in effect in Germany today, because they were just that good. That doesn't excuse, much less condone any of the atrocities the Nazi regime committed, of course.
It's also quite arrogant to sit there, pointing fingers at others and calling them evil, thus claiming the moral high ground. No country has a spotless history, and even WWII, which is largely considered a very black-and-white affair, was far more sophisticated than that.

In short, I think real world politics don't work with a dumped-down morality system like the one in D&D and shouldn't be classified that way.

[ForgetsOldName]

Demons are not known for giving accurate information about the natures of good and evil. If ever you find yourself discussing ethics with a demon--don't bring the DnD alignment system into it...

[mertol]

Kore be like did you just assume my alignment?

[YardMeat]

Let me start by saying that I completely disagree with the demon myself and that its reasoning why evil is winning makes no sense at all to me. Especially since it seems to imply that evil does not infight on grounds of ideological differences. That completely ignores the Law-Chaos axis, which is as much of an ideology as Good and Evil are in D&D.

Actually, I'm starting to think the law/chaos axis doesn't exist in Thuntverse. He's already explained in the past that Devils (lawful evil) and Demons (chaotic evil) aren't really as distinct in his universe, and they've appeared working together in the past (when not-Walter first showed up). Discussions of good and evil have come up, but we haven't seen any (that I recall) revolving around law and chaos. In addition to this, there are some alignment contradictions (Fumbles's class requirements*, Chief's alignment given the deity he follows*) that would be cleared up if Thunt only cared about good and evil and law/chaos weren't a consideration.

*He has to be lawful good to be a paladin, but he can't be lawful and be a barbarian or bard.

**Clerics can be one step away, alignment wise, from their deity, but they can't be neutral on both axis unless their deity is true neutral. So, following a neutral evil deity, Chief would have to be lawful evil or neutral evil. If there is only one axis, then maybe that clears things up.

[Morgaln]

Let me start by saying that I completely disagree with the demon myself and that its reasoning why evil is winning makes no sense at all to me. Especially since it seems to imply that evil does not infight on grounds of ideological differences. That completely ignores the Law-Chaos axis, which is as much of an ideology as Good and Evil are in D&D.

Actually, I'm starting to think the law/chaos axis doesn't exist in Thuntverse. He's already explained in the past that Devils (lawful evil) and Demons (chaotic evil) aren't really as distinct in his universe, and they've appeared working together in the past (when not-Walter first showed up). Discussions of good and evil have come up, but we haven't seen any (that I recall) revolving around law and chaos. In addition to this, there are some alignment contradictions (Fumbles's class requirements*, Chief's alignment given the deity he follows*) that would be cleared up if Thunt only cared about good and evil and law/chaos weren't a consideration.

*He has to be lawful good to be a paladin, but he can't be lawful and be a barbarian or bard.

**Clerics can be one step away, alignment wise, from their deity, but they can't be neutral on both axis unless their deity is true neutral. So, following a neutral evil deity, Chief would have to be lawful evil or neutral evil. If there is only one axis, then maybe that clears things up.

That would indeed explain a lot. I don't think law and chaos have ever been mentioned in the comic, so it's entirely possible. It would be a bit unfortunate, since law/chaos has its very own potential for conflict, but it would solve a lot of incongruencies. I still can't imagine there's no infighting among evil entities, though. Then again, as several people have pointed out, demons aren't exactly trustworthy sources of information.

[RocketScientist]

"Listen, between the two of us, who is Lawful Good?" -Ears.

That's just off the top of my head. There are probably more mentions.

Also, Thunt misspelled "deity."

[Xavier78]

Kore's Deity is trapped in Kore and can't remove his Paladin powers/remove the curse and it's also why "evil is winning", because that "good" God has been locked up for some unknown reason, or not.

[thinkslogically]

From the point of view of maintaining "balance" within the narrative of this story, I'd expect the first Prissan to contain a good deity or demi-god or something like that. It might be Kore (in a previous, near-deity form), but I'd be surprised if it was just Kore-as-we-know-him. A level 16 paladin is powerful and all, but doesn't seem enough to balance a trapped demonic deity.

I know there are lots of other ways to achieve balance between good and evil, but this seems the most likely to me from what's been presented story-wise so far.

[YardMeat]

Kore's Deity is trapped in Kore and can't remove his Paladin powers/remove the curse and it's also why "evil is winning", because that "good" God has been locked up for some unknown reason, or not.

I think I have a new favorite fan theory.

[Guus]

That could be very interesting indeed.