24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

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24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Tofu » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:29 pm

Permalink : http://goblinscomic.com/comic/page-10-2018

These three pages work well amongst then, it's probably more character examination and development than actual plot progress, but it's good to get to know a new character that I honestly have not had time to invest in, and to get to know a touch better. We all know Forgarth and MinMax, but these new characters - I could imagine them being some folks late to the campaign, and trying to find out how to work both their characters and to work their abilities.

So, nice work for that - and for making a hellscape look like a pleasing view to the viewer.

Lastly,. folks should read the blurb at the bottom of the page in the blogpost dated APril 16.

---------------
Idle's Death Curse And What It Doesn't Mean
April 16, 2018 at 1:00 pm
The comic is currently in a three page arc that has Idle explaining how she deals with her curse that requires her to die once a day. A couple times now, the comic has touched upon the physical pain she feels during each death, but right now, she's getting more into the feeling of actually dying. Her feelings of passing from living to dead and how she's learned the best ways to, as she puts it, "let go" during that transition.

I want this skill of hers to be understood by the reader. However, it occured to me last night that her explanation could potentially be seen as the comic advocating suicide. At the time of writing this, no one has brought up such a concern (as far as I know), but I think that suicide is an incredibly serious issue and I'd hate for anyone to think that Idle's description of a "beautiful death" is something that it isn't.

Idle's skill of "letting go" is about seeing something beautiful in something normally seen as scary. Yet at the same time, not devaluing the legitimacy of that fear. I still have one more page that sums up her unique skill, but it is important to me to get the message out right away.

Idle's curse and how she deals with it has nothing to do with suicide. It is not my intention to glamorize suicide or make it seem attractive in any way.

If you're going through something difficult and you need help, here are some contact options...

In the U.S. - Call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255) or the National Hopeline Network at 1-800-SUICIDE (1-800-784-2433).

In the UK and Ireland - Call the Samaritans at 116 123

In Australia - Call Lifeline Australia at 13 11 14

Canada Suicide Prevention Services - Canada Suicide Prevention Service by phone, text or chat:Phone: toll free 1-833-456-4566 Text: 45645 Chat: www.crisisservicescanada.ca For residents of Quebec, call 1 866 APPELLE

And although I'm not an expert on the subject and can't replace professional help, feel free to tweet to me if this recent arc in my comic has caused you to feel anything confusing or distressing.

Thank you.

-Tarol

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by AXIS » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:32 pm

Are we witnessing the start of Forgaths' seduction away from Lawful Good, to Lawful or True Neutral? or worse?

Seems there would be a larger thematic element at part here rather than just Idle waxing lyrical about her curse.

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by GathersIngredients » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:15 pm

I already saw it as something beautiful the last page. What does that say about me? o:)

... probably that I am not afraid of it, because it is not tearing MY world apart... :roll:
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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by crow76308 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:54 am

I loved this. Something terrifying can still be filled with beauty. If you let go of expectations, you will find hidden treasures all around you.
Hey, I'm writing something. Check it out.

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Krulle » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:35 am

@bejotape wrote:@Thunt_Goblins I wonder if the "Klick patch" over Forgath's eye is translucent. Can he still see through that thing? Did they save his eye?
@[color=red]Thunt[/color]_Goblins wrote:Nope. Forgath can't see out of that "eye". But Minmax can see out of his replacement eye.
edit: ah, the links in the quotes don't accept colours anymore... Pity.

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by BuildsLegos » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:08 am

Well that sucks for Forgath, he could see just fine out of that eye while smashing Kore's helmet. The green klik should have included an eye-hole; and Dies said in the expo-dump about klik reproduction that this "stillborn klik" (for lack of a better term) is never going away.
Last edited by BuildsLegos on Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Glemp » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:38 pm

Maybe fresh eyeball juice is that klik's positive. Now there's an image to haunt ya.

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by someone » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:05 am

I almost skipped the comic because I thought it was the old one and since we know the comics can be late sometimes I wasn't even mad. Glad I had a look into here to recognize it was a new comic.

On the strip itself, it's kinda cute on one hand. But on the other hand it's feeling rather slow.
Something like: we were going 150 on the highway and suddenly we have to emergency brake because of traffic jam and are stuck there now and have to admire the landscape.

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Guus » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:30 am

someone wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:05 am
On the strip itself, it's kinda cute on one hand. But on the other hand it's feeling rather slow.
Something like: we were going 150 on the highway and suddenly we have to emergency brake because of traffic jam and are stuck there now and have to admire the landscape.
I don't think that's really an issue, I feel like it's actually kind of nice.

However, there is something else that sits wrong with me. This is a very New Age-y Buddhist type belief. It's not something you manage when you close your eyes a bit and just listen to someone saying some stuff. It kind of feels.... quasi. I don't have a better word for it. I'm simply not buying this profound realization in such a short time. This is something that takes years of active soul searching to achieve.
A solution could be if Idle has a Suggestion Spell and is using that on Forgath, but then we would see her IME. Talking about spells, what class is Idle?

EDIT: of course I'm talking about Forgath's realization, not Idle's.
You might be right, but is it productive?

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Morgaln » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:35 am

We don't know what class Idle is, unless it has been revealed outside the comic itself. She's not carrying any weapons or armor (that we can see), so the most likely options are probably wizard, monk or sorcerer (or possibly cleric of a god with very strict restrictions on equipment). The one time we've seen her in a fight, she was in full damsel-in-distress mode, so we can't tell anything from her fighting style either. With the whole Buddhist stuff, monk becomes more likely, but from a narrative point of view, that would step on the toes of Thaco.

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by BuildsLegos » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:42 am

We already have two barbarians and one-and-a-half paladins, so my preference for not-another-monk would be cold hard variety. We don't know Kin's exact class either, and the previous sorceress is dead (twice). Calling it now: Idle's Tron-pipe is secretly a wand!
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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by AXIS » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:57 pm

I think Idle's comment about knowing more than he thinks about dwarves may possibly be plot relevant.

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by TheDarkTyger » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:19 pm

Okay, I love this. Ship confirmed? XD Regardless, that last panel is adorable.

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Generic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:49 pm

someone wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:05 am
I almost skipped the comic because I thought it was the old one and since we know the comics can be late sometimes I wasn't even mad. Glad I had a look into here to recognize it was a new comic.

On the strip itself, it's kinda cute on one hand. But on the other hand it's feeling rather slow.
Something like: we were going 150 on the highway and suddenly we have to emergency brake because of traffic jam and are stuck there now and have to admire the landscape.
We also have to admire the same landscape twice. ;) Stuck in a roundabout?
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Re: 24 April 2018 - Enjoy the view

Post by Krulle » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:23 am

We'll be enjoying this page a bit longer, so enjoy the vista:
@Thunt_Goblins wrote:[...]
Also, due to spending a couple days in Vancouver for a procedure (tiny chance that it'll be longer if they find anything unexpected), the next update will be May 7th.
Good luck, Tarol!

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by jbrecken » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:25 am

Making Idle a bard would be a nice tribute to the original Lucky 7 Sampson, Bob Dorough, who recently left us, but I could also see both her rejection of good and evil and her nonchalance about being partially an animal might make her a decent druid.

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Dillon19910 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:56 pm

I noticed some details that could be direct forshadowing as well as some that could be subtle ones. I LOVE Tarols knack for small details so I think there may be an important insight into future plot points. Ill include references to Page 8 and 9 (first two pages) since this last page ties it all together.

Forgath does know of his own demise and has already been nearly slain by his future killer and even seen Kore's horrible twisted face and torturous IME. So if he takes time to reflect on his future or when it finally comes to meet him, he will be naturally afraid. Palidin's may be resistant to fear, they still fear their own mortality and the fate of their souls.

Idle's words could be a way of guiding Forgath to his fate. To not rush into it too soon (denying fate), and not to fight against it to some bitter end but to let fate guide you. Words to possibly give him some peace of mind in that unfortunate moment. A possible literal interpretation of her words on page 9 could be that if he tries to die before his 'time' he will die alone, if he tries to circumvent his fate, it will be a horrible death (soul tortured for eternity), but if he faces his end he will die a respectable way, then possibly some glorious death doing some great deed as well?

And seeing how Dies Horribly MAY have technically lived up to his name and revived, there could be such trickery involved to allow Forgath to use that nifty feature if it isn't unique to Idle's curse. Dies may have had the option if he was "experienced" in dying. Resurrection does exist in D&D so where your soul comes back could be an option? Seems a bit of a stretch though.

As for Idle's meditation guidance, her words strike me as literal foreshadowing with "Don't run from pain. Don't seek joy. Let go of fear" as words he would remember in his final moments. I noticed she referenced needing to concentrate just before death and then moves on to providing meditation guidance directly after that. Useful Skill? Feat?

Expanding on this
crow76308 wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:54 am
I loved this. Something terrifying can still be filled with beauty. If you let go of expectations, you will find hidden treasures all around you.
A more philosophical view would be that letting go of your preconceptions about things you fear and do not really understand can help you step back and see things that you would normally miss, possibly the big picture or maybe the small details. Approaching life with an open mind and heart can help you live a fuller life and appreciate the life you live, no matter how dark it first seems. And if you can do that, then when your time comes you will have lived a good life and therefore a good death.

As for
Guus wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:30 am
However, there is something else that sits wrong with me. This is a very New Age-y Buddhist type belief. It's not something you manage when you close your eyes a bit and just listen to someone saying some stuff. It kind of feels.... quasi. I don't have a better word for it. I'm simply not buying this profound realization in such a short time. This is something that takes years of active soul searching to achieve.
A solution could be if Idle has a Suggestion Spell and is using that on Forgath, but then we would see her IME. Talking about spells, what class is Idle?

EDIT: of course I'm talking about Forgath's realization, not Idle's.
Cleric spells run off wisdom so Forgath likely has a decent Wisdom score which would allow him a greater insight into what she is saying. I agree a pause frame for him to have a moment of silence would have seemly allowed a reasonable time to actually do as she was saying instead of trying to do that while listening to the instructions but D&D is about incredible hero's doing incredible feats. Maybe he just rolled a natural 20 on an insight check with a hefty wisdom bonus.

Also in some D&D campaigns even through gods are known to exist and their powers often felt in the world, many mortals reject the gods themselves. This could be anywhere from wanting to usurp the gods themselves or to simply be free of the machinations of the gods and be free (or just make them believe they are free) of godly control. But the point being that I find it quite reasonable that her 'New Age-y Buddhist' (I don't have a better name for it) views could exist comfortably in any D&D campaign.

I doubt Idle has any mischievous intentions at this point. I feel she is being very honest about this.

If I had to guess a class, Wizard. She doesn't wear armor (though could be a curse effect), she seems to have a decent concentration and possibly intelligence to figure out her reappearing trick and working through that and figuring out timing. They did the Curse Walk "recently" so she likely figured this out rather quickly. Also Idle mentioned knowing more then Forgath thinks, either she has spent time around dwarves before or just causally remarking on her own knowledge. Another thing is http://goblinscomic.com/comic/11142015-2 She comments on Forgath's 'stone-sense' ability as 'boring' I feel clssses like Druid, Monk and Sorcerer would understand being attuned to something subtle while Wizards might find it drab from a magical perspective.

Apologies for the wall of text. :oops:

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Zeus1976 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:01 am

Shame we know already that forgarth won't get to have a 'Good death, the talking wall in brassmoon pointed that out.

Idle: thid is what a good death feels like.
Wall: Not a good death either.

http://goblinscomic.com/comic/12152009

I believe when the time comes forgarth will go up to his killer, expecting to be able to let go, however he won't be able to and it will be very traumatic for everyone, in comic and for us lot too.

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Dillon19910 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:58 pm

Thats a good point I forgot. Though I feel that adequately counters a point of my original post, one could argue that the context of what each of them mean is slightly different. It could be that Forgath will die a painful death (lots of screaming) and one that is quite gruesome (Junior is good at those) and perceived as a terrible death by others. While if he can at least in his own mind come to peace with his fate and possibly still serve a great purpose, then he will he lived a good life.

Also since the talking wall was still kind of vague about detail of Forgath's death, it is possible that the 'screaming' doesn't necessarily mean a painful drawn out death but possibly just a lot of shouting before a quick but still likely gruesome death.

These thoughts can be a bit out there in feasibility, especially in a universe that is predominantly evil, but still slightly possible.

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Krulle » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:54 pm

"Lot's of screaming" dos NOT sound like a death where the dying person "made peace"....

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Guus » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:40 am

Dillon19910 wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:56 pm
As for
Guus wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:30 am
However, there is something else that sits wrong with me. This is a very New Age-y Buddhist type belief. It's not something you manage when you close your eyes a bit and just listen to someone saying some stuff. It kind of feels.... quasi. I don't have a better word for it. I'm simply not buying this profound realization in such a short time. This is something that takes years of active soul searching to achieve.
A solution could be if Idle has a Suggestion Spell and is using that on Forgath, but then we would see her IME. Talking about spells, what class is Idle?

EDIT: of course I'm talking about Forgath's realization, not Idle's.
Cleric spells run off wisdom so Forgath likely has a decent Wisdom score which would allow him a greater insight into what she is saying. I agree a pause frame for him to have a moment of silence would have seemly allowed a reasonable time to actually do as she was saying instead of trying to do that while listening to the instructions but D&D is about incredible hero's doing incredible feats. Maybe he just rolled a natural 20 on an insight check with a hefty wisdom bonus.
Putting a profound, life-changing realization as a wisdom check could work because it's a D&D comic, but that'd be the laziest, most immersion breaking thing the comic would've done up to this point in my opinion. Well, besides MinMax getting a demon spawned in front of him because of Herbert, but at least those had some comedic value.

I wasn't talking about realizing someone can be right. I'm talking about someone spouting a couple of vagueries at you, things you never dealt with before because you have a deity you worship, and then you realizing that the world that is literally tearing apart can actually be seen as beautiful. These are things that are not just rationalized, but felt through rationalization. And that is a mindset that needs some serious rewiring of the way you think, which doesn't happen by sitting there with your eyes closed and have someone tell you "let go of everything".

Finally, there is no problem with a "let go of your emotional burdens" philosophy in D&D at all. It's just something that needs to be learned, and it takes time to learn.
Last edited by Guus on Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
You might be right, but is it productive?

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Glemp » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:55 am

Krulle wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:54 pm
"Lot's of screaming" dos NOT sound like a death where the dying person "made peace"....
It might be a case of Forgath screaming in pain, then getting the "it's beautiful" epiphany right before he dies.

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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Sessine » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:56 am

Guus wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:40 am
It's just something that needs to be learned, and it takes time to learn.
I do not claim to be an expert. But I have read a lot that has been written by people who do claim to be experts. The one statement that crops up, over and over again, is that you can't get there by trying. The breakthrough is not a thing one learns in the way that one learns a skill. It is a thing that just happens. Your life experiences need to have prepared you for it. You also need to be in a receptive frame of mind. But that's it.

Learning how to make it happen again, when you want it to? Sure, that takes practice. The first time? You can't learn how to make a thing happen until you know what you're trying for. And this is a thing that can't be conveyed in words. You just can't understand what to aim for until you've experienced it.

So I find this scene plausible. Forgath has had a lot of life experiences recently that have to be all jumbled up in his head in a very confusing manner. One of the biggest was that character-defining moment going off the bridge. Idle has talked him temporarily into just the right kind of relaxed emotional state to have this insight. It won't last, and he may not be able to get back to it easily, or at all, but at least now he knows it's possible.
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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by Guus » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:19 pm

Sessine wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:56 am
I do not claim to be an expert. But I have read a lot that has been written by people who do claim to be experts. The one statement that crops up, over and over again, is that you can't get there by trying. The breakthrough is not a thing one learns in the way that one learns a skill. It is a thing that just happens. Your life experiences need to have prepared you for it. You also need to be in a receptive frame of mind. But that's it.

Learning how to make it happen again, when you want it to? Sure, that takes practice. The first time? You can't learn how to make a thing happen until you know what you're trying for. And this is a thing that can't be conveyed in words. You just can't understand what to aim for until you've experienced it.

So I find this scene plausible. Forgath has had a lot of life experiences recently that have to be all jumbled up in his head in a very confusing manner. One of the biggest was that character-defining moment going off the bridge. Idle has talked him temporarily into just the right kind of relaxed emotional state to have this insight. It won't last, and he may not be able to get back to it easily, or at all, but at least now he knows it's possible.
I understand what you mean, and I agree with you, except for two parts, that are part of the same thing:
1: that what Idle did to get Forgath there is plausible. The thing is, what she is saying is distracting if you have not already thought about what she could mean. "Don't run from pain, don't seek joy" means you first need to understand what brings you pain and what brings you joy. If you've been reading the same kind of things as I have (Hanegraaff, Gibbons, Goodwin-Clarke, Alt, maybe you recognize them?), reaching a state of mind does not just happen. To get there, you need to think. True release of desire cannot be done by wanting it to be so, that's paradoxal, so in that sense you cannot get there by trying. On the other hand, random epiphany doesn't just happen. Most people that are tied to these ideals, be it spiritual, religious, mindful, whatever flavour of terminology you prefer, got there by taking time and reflecting on their experience. Others get an epiphany because something that happens in their life, or they witness something happening to someone else, and then reflecting on it. Not by someone speaking to you about vague concepts.

2: this follows up with my first gripe: What Idle says isn't enlightening for a novice, it's confusing. To actually get what she means and get in the right state of mind following her advice, Forgath would need to actively try to get what she means. And, following what you said, he would not be able to reach it like that because he would need to try to get there. It is kind of self defeating in that sense.

That's just what I think and know about enlightenment, meditation and philosophy of desire, there is a huge amount of literature on it, and I haven't read even close to one percent on it. I can hardly claim to be the know-all expert that I might come off as trying to be. If that's the case, I'm sorry.

EDIT: We don't really know how this will affect Forgath in the long run, and I'm probably assuming too much based on a single page.
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Re: 24 April2018 - "'You clearly don't know much about Dwarves"

Post by BuildsLegos » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:24 am

First Kin, now Forgath. Thunt has a bad habit of rushing characters through potent and dramatic character development at a much faster rate than any real person can reasonably be expected to...take. (Don't you hate it when you can't think of the last word to finish a sentence?)
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