March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

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KiernanFell
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March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by KiernanFell » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:51 pm

http://goblinscomic.com/comic/page-5-2019

I hope my first Post does not break any Laws o:)

God, i hope this works out well....

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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by BuildsLegos » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:36 pm

In starting a thread for a new page, you did everything right. I wish I could say the same for the next page, but nice things are a rare commodity in Thuntonia.
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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by RocketScientist » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:00 pm

Stay classy, Bowst.

Welcome to the forum, KiernanFell (or welcome to posting, if you've been a lurker). :)
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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by KiernanFell » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:57 pm

Lurker for years, actually :)

I'm (zuversichtlicht...umm confident? sanguinely? Google says both) that Forgath will live again.

I'm just not sure if he will be the same. Who knows what this Klik-Magic will do to him.

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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by Goodstuff » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:17 pm

Salt-slap! Yeah!

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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by Kamendae » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:29 pm

Nah, he punched himself. o:)

http://goblinscomic.com/comic/thwap

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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by Aegis J Hyena » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:16 pm

Don't roll a 1 now, Ward...
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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by Goodstuff » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:54 pm

Kamendae wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:29 pm
Nah, he punched himself. o:)

http://goblinscomic.com/comic/thwap
Oh, that's right! xD I forgot about his curse, good catch!

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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by Xavier78 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:53 am

Bowst has a point. This whole storyline is just odd, "rushed" and out of place to me.

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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by TheOneThatGotAway » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:04 am

Bit weird, they talked about doing it before, and now that he's gone they're like "meh, maybe we should think this over..."? No backsies!

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12 March 2019: FixHimFixHimFixHim!

Post by Krulle » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:22 am

It just shows Ward doesn't like Forgath, and he may have a point too.
It's all rather undocumented magic, so what effect it'll have remains unproven, and may have sincerely desastrous side-effects (like creating another deranged klik).
And it shows Bowst doesn't like the ideo of Idle falling in love with someone else than him.
No boy, just because she helps you with your curse doesn't mean she's madly in love with you, and you alone.

But the story arc is nearly over, which may be an indication whether the resurrection is successful, whether it'll be interrupted by someone,... Because if it were successful, I would expect more pages to be upcoming, and Thunt previously also promised to stay with this storyline until it is over.
https://twitter.com/Thunt_Goblins/status/1105255283612254208 wrote:
https://twitter.com/JCaseLamphere/status/1105252841143394305 wrote:The next page is going to return to the other storyline, isn't it?
Nope. The next page, which is expected to go live next Monday (earlier for my $1 Patrons), will be the final page of this story arc.
One big thing in this reply from @Thunt_Goblins: "next page [expected] next Monday"!
Yay!

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Re: 12 March 2019: FixHimFixHimFixHim!

Post by Morgaln » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:01 am

Krulle wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:22 am
It just shows Ward doesn't like Forgath, and he may have a point too.
It's all rather undocumented magic, so what effect it'll have remains unproven, and may have sincerely desastrous side-effects (like creating another deranged klik).
And it shows Bowst doesn't like the ideo of Idle falling in love with someone else than him.
No boy, just because she helps you with your curse doesn't mean she's madly in love with you, and you alone.

But the story arc is nearly over, which may be an indication whether the resurrection is successful, whether it'll be interrupted by someone,... Because if it were successful, I would expect more pages to be upcoming, and Thunt previously also promised to stay with this storyline until it is over.
https://twitter.com/Thunt_Goblins/status/1105255283612254208 wrote:
https://twitter.com/JCaseLamphere/status/1105252841143394305 wrote:The next page is going to return to the other storyline, isn't it?
Nope. The next page, which is expected to go live next Monday (earlier for my $1 Patrons), will be the final page of this story arc.
One big thing in this reply from @Thunt_Goblins: "next page [expected] next Monday"!
Yay!
There is no indication at all that Bowst sees Idle as anything but a party member and friend. Claiming he's in love with her or that he thinks she's in love with him is pure conjecture.

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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by TheSedated » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:40 am

Great choice of title, KiernanFell. Now I have the picture of the guitar-armed GAP robbing a bank in my head.
Breaking the law, breaking the law...

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Re: 12 March 2019: FixHimFixHimFixHim!

Post by Krulle » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:14 am

Morgaln wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:01 am
There is no indication at all that Bowst sees Idle as anything but a party member and friend. Claiming he's in love with her or that he thinks she's in love with him is pure conjecture.
I never said he's in love with her.
But he may still be afraid oh her attention shifting to Forgath, and when she does, he may fear that his daily sex curse might become a problem.
Because who else than the sole female might help him?
If she and Forgath do become a thing, it might end his life as a side-result.

For for his life might make Bowst break, and possibly interfere with Wards resurrection of Forgath.
(Actually, I'm calling this now: Forgath would be killed by a great battle with a Dwarf. I call Idle being the Dwarf fighting Bowst to protect Ward resurrecting Forgath, but this fails, and Ward cannot resurrect Forgath, leading to Forgath's death being final.)

Let me hope I am wrong.
Notably because Forgath said a Dwarf would kill him and the Talking Wall confirms this.
IMHO, it would be a stretch to say Idle loosing a defending fight is counted as her killing him. It would be a result of her losing the fight, but it would not be the direct cause of the death.

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Re: 12 March 2019: FixHimFixHimFixHim!

Post by Morgaln » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:36 am

Krulle wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:14 am
Morgaln wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:01 am
There is no indication at all that Bowst sees Idle as anything but a party member and friend. Claiming he's in love with her or that he thinks she's in love with him is pure conjecture.
I never said he's in love with her.
But he may still be afraid oh her attention shifting to Forgath, and when she does, he may fear that his daily sex curse might become a problem.
Because who else than the sole female might help him?
If she and Forgath do become a thing, it might end his life as a side-result.

For for his life might make Bowst break, and possibly interfere with Wards resurrection of Forgath.
(Actually, I'm calling this now: Forgath would be killed by a great battle with a Dwarf. I call Idle being the Dwarf fighting Bowst to protect Ward resurrecting Forgath, but this fails, and Ward cannot resurrect Forgath, leading to Forgath's death being final.)

Let me hope I am wrong.
Notably because Forgath said a Dwarf would kill him and the Talking Wall confirms this.
IMHO, it would be a stretch to say Idle loosing a defending fight is counted as her killing him. It would be a result of her losing the fight, but it would not be the direct cause of the death.
You did indeed not say he's in love with her; however, you berated him for thinking she should only love him when he has not shown any sign of thinking like that. Instead, all he has done is to express some understandable confusion over the way Idle overreacts here. After all, she's known Forgath for about two days and is treating this like she's losing her closest friend for years.
Also, don't forget, none if this is happening. Forgath's player can just create a new character, nothing got lost here.


Also, regarding this:
Krulle wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:14 am

Because who else than the sole female might help him?
Ward? Forgath? Any shapeshifting klik? His hand? A random hole in he ground? A squirrel?
If you think Idle is the only way for Bowst to stay alive, you're clearly not thinking creatively enough.

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Re: 12 March 2019: FixHimFixHimFixHim!

Post by BuildsLegos » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:13 am

Morgaln wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:36 am
Krulle wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:14 am
Because who else than the sole female might help him?
Ward? Forgath? Any shapeshifting klik? His hand? A random hole in he ground? A squirrel?
If you think Idle is the only way for Bowst to stay alive, you're clearly not thinking creatively enough.
If Bowst could just help himself any ol' time (as most do), then the false pretense of needing Idle's help would classify as rape. However, Thunt swore to me a few years ago up & down all that is holy that Goblins doesn't have any rape. (linking that page and referencing his tantrum are a package deal for me, if only because I didn't take the chance in the chat.)
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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by Krulle » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:25 am

Ward doesn't seem in any hurry to help Bowst in any way, and would let Bowst die. (link)
Ward only went on mission because of Woody (link)...

Forgath does not exist anymore.
His hand, random hole in the ground, etc... may not classify as "sex", depends on the exact curse formulation, but I know several people who classify self-masturbation as separate from sex, which in their definition includes at least two persons.
And the curse may also require the sex being consentual, which would also exclude foorcing animals.... But this again I simply don't know and depends on the exact curse formulation.
And that may be part of the pressure Bowst feels leading him to break...

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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by Morgaln » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:43 am

Krulle wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:25 am
Ward doesn't seem in any hurry to help Bowst in any way, and would let Bowst die. (link)
Ward only went on mission because of Woody (link)...

Forgath does not exist anymore.
His hand, random hole in the ground, etc... may not classify as "sex", depends on the exact curse formulation, but I know several people who classify self-masturbation as separate from sex, which in their definition includes at least two persons.
And the curse may also require the sex being consentual, which would also exclude foorcing animals.... But this again I simply don't know and depends on the exact curse formulation.
And that may be part of the pressure Bowst feels leading him to break...
You're right that we don't know the exact wording so we don't know what all classifies, but I'm sure there are ways to get around it that don't involve Idle.
BuildsLegos wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:13 am
Morgaln wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:36 am
Krulle wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:14 am
Because who else than the sole female might help him?
Ward? Forgath? Any shapeshifting klik? His hand? A random hole in he ground? A squirrel?
If you think Idle is the only way for Bowst to stay alive, you're clearly not thinking creatively enough.
If Bowst could just help himself any ol' time (as most do), then the false pretense of needing Idle's help would classify as rape. However, Thunt swore to me a few years ago up & down all that is holy that Goblins doesn't have any rape. (linking that page and referencing his tantrum are a package deal for me, if only because I didn't take the chance in the chat.)
I'm afraid you got lied to. The sex between Bowst and Idle is, per definition, not consentual, since Bowst is being forced into it. As such, it is sexual assault since it involves forcing someone to perform a sexual act and it is rape since it forces that person into sexual intercourse. The victim is Bowst, the perpetrator is whoever cursed him.

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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by Generic » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:35 pm

Xavier78 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:53 am
Bowst has a point. This whole storyline is just odd, "rushed" and out of place to me.
+1

Not to mention that Forgath already died. His arc (being Minmax's straightman) finished when he fought Kore and jumped from the bridge. Anything happening here just feel off to me as well.

On the other topic: Thunt said there was no rape in Goblins? Goblins might be the rapiest webcomic I read, to be honest. The rape surely outweights the consensual sex.
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Re: 12 March 2019: FixHimFixHimFixHim!

Post by Generic » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:22 pm

Morgaln wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:36 am
[...]

You did indeed not say he's in love with her; however, you berated him for thinking she should only love him when he has not shown any sign of thinking like that. Instead, all he has done is to express some understandable confusion over the way Idle overreacts here. After all, she's known Forgath for about two days and is treating this like she's losing her closest friend for years.
[...]
As far as I am concerned, Idle has shown the most romantic feelings. She said she does not mind. We only know Bowst is being forced with the threat of death.
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Re: 12 March 2019: FixHimFixHimFixHim!

Post by Krulle » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:41 am

Morgaln wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:36 am
Also, don't forget, none if this is happening. Forgath's player can just create a new character, nothing got lost here.
Well, it would be bad roleplay for Idle to transfer the budding romance onto a new character by the same player....
Generic wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:35 pm
Not to mention that Forgath already died.
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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by BuildsLegos » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:38 am

Morgaln wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:43 am
BuildsLegos wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:13 am
Morgaln wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:36 am
Ward? Forgath? Any shapeshifting klik? His hand? A random hole in he ground? A squirrel?
If you think Idle is the only way for Bowst to stay alive, you're clearly not thinking creatively enough.
If Bowst could just help himself any ol' time (as most do), then the false pretense of needing Idle's help would classify as rape. However, Thunt swore to me a few years ago up & down all that is holy that Goblins doesn't have any rape. (linking that page and referencing his tantrum are a package deal for me, if only because I didn't take the chance in the chat.)
I'm afraid you got lied to. The sex between Bowst and Idle is, per definition, not consentual, since Bowst is being forced into it. As such, it is sexual assault since it involves forcing someone to perform a sexual act and it is rape since it forces that person into sexual intercourse. The victim is Bowst, the perpetrator is whoever cursed him.
Hell, I tried explaining to him that both are victims and his only good point is that, for all I know, the rapist/curse creator might not be an intelligent being. His insistence that I stop reading if this is how I understand his story got me to shut up, but with the kept-to-myself deal that, upon my purchase of volume 3, I want to mail him a thank-you for the great story and sign it by my user-name.
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Re: 12 March 2019: FixHimFixHimFixHim!

Post by Krulle » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:11 am

You know what bothers me?
The idea of the daily-sex curse is interesting, in that it by itself will end an overconfident solo-adventurers from succeeding in that "Curse Walk"...
And the sex between Idle and Bowst may still be consentual. Idle and Bowst may both be agreeing to have sex. Yes, there is a certain incentive for Bowst besides the fun and exercise, but still... Idle and Bowst both seem to consent to having some activity with another each evening.

Having to have sex is for Bowst not consentual, but the specific activity with Idle I don't think any legal judge would classify as "rape".

Perhaps the player of Bowst just shrugged his shoulder and declared he would rather have his character die (and make a new character) than throwing dice to see if he can force Idle. (But this may change. Bowstrings break, they are unreliable.)

I don't care. In game it is not portrayed as a problem for her and so far also not for him, so... *shrug*.
It does at least not fall within my definition of "rape". It does fall within the grey area in how far each of them was free in their decision to say yes, but apparently both actively say yes every evening again and again.
(Remember, she could've left the area of the Kliks, while he was bound to it because of Ward. That poor Bowst got two bad curses, one binding him to another character, and to a specific magic item, which ended up becoming part of Ward, thus binding Bowst to Ward too (link). He cannot leave the area without Ward, and will also not survive for long without another adventurer, which in a remote area can take a while to find. What would've happened had Idle decided to not wait any longer, and Ward deciding to remain anyway? Bowst would've had the choice of death.)

(From todays perspective such a curse is morally a problematic thing, for different reasons than 50 years ago...)

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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by Morgaln » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:14 am

Krulle wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:11 am

I don't care. In game it is not portrayed as a problem for her and so far also not for him, so... *shrug*.
Yes, the comic takes the stance that being forced to have intercourse is not a problem for men since they want it all the time with anyone anyway. It's a disgusting, sexist view but it is unfortunately common in our culture.
Krulle wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:11 am
It does at least not fall within my definition of "rape". It does fall within the grey area in how far each of them was free in their decision to say yes, but apparently both actively say yes every evening again and again.
(Remember, she could've left the area of the Kliks, while he was bound to it because of Ward. That poor Bowst got two bad curses, one binding him to another character, and to a specific magic item, which ended up becoming part of Ward, thus binding Bowst to Ward too (link). He cannot leave the area without Ward, and will also not survive for long without another adventurer, which in a remote area can take a while to find. What would've happened had Idle decided to not wait any longer, and Ward deciding to remain anyway? Bowst would've had the choice of death.)

(From todays perspective such a curse is morally a problematic thing, for different reasons than 50 years ago...)
It doesn't actually matter if it falls into your definition of rape. It falls into the legal definition of rape, at least by German law. I haven't yet found relevant texts in other jurisdictions, but I expect it to be similar in most western countries.
The question on whether they were free in their decision is not a grey area. They are both coerced into having intercourse by threat of lethal force against Bowst (in that regard, Idle is as much a victim as Bowst, which I wrongly ommitted in my previous post). As such, by definition, their sex is not consentual.
If you want a real world example, it's the equivalent of a person standing there with a gun and telling them "you two have sex or I'll shoot one of you." The two people might be physically attracted to each other and they might enjoy the sex, but that doesn't change that they got forced into it, which constitutes rape.

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Re: March 12th, 2019 "Breaking the Law(s)"

Post by Generic » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:05 am

Morgaln wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:14 am
Krulle wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:11 am

I don't care. In game it is not portrayed as a problem for her and so far also not for him, so... *shrug*.
Yes, the comic takes the stance that being forced to have intercourse is not a problem for men since they want it all the time with anyone anyway. It's a disgusting, sexist view but it is unfortunately common in our culture.
Krulle wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:11 am
It does at least not fall within my definition of "rape". It does fall within the grey area in how far each of them was free in their decision to say yes, but apparently both actively say yes every evening again and again.
(Remember, she could've left the area of the Kliks, while he was bound to it because of Ward. That poor Bowst got two bad curses, one binding him to another character, and to a specific magic item, which ended up becoming part of Ward, thus binding Bowst to Ward too (link). He cannot leave the area without Ward, and will also not survive for long without another adventurer, which in a remote area can take a while to find. What would've happened had Idle decided to not wait any longer, and Ward deciding to remain anyway? Bowst would've had the choice of death.)

(From todays perspective such a curse is morally a problematic thing, for different reasons than 50 years ago...)
It doesn't actually matter if it falls into your definition of rape. It falls into the legal definition of rape, at least by German law. I haven't yet found relevant texts in other jurisdictions, but I expect it to be similar in most western countries.
The question on whether they were free in their decision is not a grey area. They are both coerced into having intercourse by threat of lethal force against Bowst (in that regard, Idle is as much a victim as Bowst, which I wrongly ommitted in my previous post). As such, by definition, their sex is not consentual.
If you want a real world example, it's the equivalent of a person standing there with a gun and telling them "you two have sex or I'll shoot one of you." The two people might be physically attracted to each other and they might enjoy the sex, but that doesn't change that they got forced into it, which constitutes rape.
100% with you on all of this. The comic seems indeed to convey it being a non issue. And that kinda implies that men always would be up for sex. So, I am mostly sure that is the case.

We really don't know anything about Bowst at all. His sex curse is a horrible horrible thing that has mostly been glossed over. Imagine always being forced to having sex daily. Your mom died today. Best schedule that sex. Only redeeming thing in this scenario is that curses in D&D are temporary, but still. It's a nasty nasty and deadly curse.
Det är mera än låtsas och leka
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om att riktiga rosor är bleka
mot en handmålad rosenkuliss.

-Tove Jansson

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