22 July 2019 - Thudthump

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Plasmeus
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22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Plasmeus » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:48 pm


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Lightning Lance
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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Lightning Lance » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:06 pm

Kore's about to just pull his arm out of his gauntlet isn't he?

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by RocketScientist » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:54 pm

Kore is almost as creepy as Mr. Fingers.
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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by brnforce » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:07 pm

I fear that Big Ears is about to seriously endanger his party. Lawful good is not a good match against Kore.

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by WearsHats » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:20 pm

Yeah. I don't think he has it in him to kill a paladin. Even Kore. (Although Kore makes a good case for being immortal.) But I think Ears is going to hesitate, and that's going to cost them.
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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Generic » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:09 pm

What is happening?
Kore tosses the Golem, to the side? In front of him? Behind him? The wall behind him is gone in a grey void so I got no sense of direction or distance anymore. Alright, I get the flippy cool tumbly monk part. But what is happening then? Thaco catches Kores arm and breaks the elbow? He blocks/catches it with his right arm, strikes Kores arm with a loud "CRACK" and show of pain from Kore, and then he swithes hands to hold it with his left?
Is Kore hurt? Was the CRACK the armor breaking? But it was in the Golem font? Why was half the page devoted to Thaco landing and so little used to explain the grapple, the helmet switch and the fact that Kore seems to hear them now? Kore is looking over the shoulder for the voices. Why is he charging the dungeon gimmick he just threw? AWAY from the place he knows the pilots to be?

This is not a good page I think. This is a fight scene and right now I don't know the location, direction or condition of the fighters. What is worse, I don't know the mood anymore. It stops the momentum from the previous page. Kore was pumped. He picked up the Golem over his head as if he was in a golem pillow fight. He was hulking up! Dice is cast and chips are down! It's purge all evil time!
And then it just grinds to a halt in an awkward grapple. Kore should be over them by know. Ears frantically putting on the helmet. Or realizing that this is something he needs to do personally. Whatever. Drama. Action. What Thaco does with his last action is less important. I already know Thaco is able to pull stunts like this. This only makes Kore seem distracted (when half of his thing is unearthly focus).

So what if he pulls the hand of his gauntlet at this point? They stopped his momentum already. Will him building it up again create more gravitas? We already know Kore is indestructable, so less armour does not really matter. The action has stopped, and nothing of great importance has been clearly conveyed. (Apart from Kore being grappled now. So what? He was grappled in the last page as well. He clearly showed us that did not matter. And the grappling got a whopping...Third of the page? Quarter of the page? Less than what the Golem landing got.)

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Krulle » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:55 am

Minmax to save the day! (prediction for one of the next pages)

Minmax is the only one who still did not use the helmet (or is about to immediately use it).

He'll be the last user, and he already packs quite a punch compared to the Goblins.

(But I fear he might be dumb enough to not take the helmet along into the next rooms, and just tosses it aside before leaving the room - which is only a relevant prediction if Kore somehow survives but is grappled by the statue when the GAP/MM leave)

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Generic » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:07 am

Krulle wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:55 am
Minmax to save the day! (prediction for one of the next pages)

Minmax is the only one who still did not use the helmet (or is about to immediately use it).

He'll be the last user, and he already packs quite a punch compared to the Goblins.

(But I fear he might be dumb enough to not take the helmet along into the next rooms, and just tosses it aside before leaving the room - which is only a relevant prediction if Kore somehow survives but is grappled by the statue when the GAP/MM leave)
I guess Kin does not count?

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by TheOneThatGotAway » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:30 am

Generic wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:09 pm
What is happening?
Kore tosses the Golem, to the side? In front of him? Behind him? The wall behind him is gone in a grey void so I got no sense of direction or distance anymore. Alright, I get the flippy cool tumbly monk part. But what is happening then? Thaco catches Kores arm and breaks the elbow? He blocks/catches it with his right arm, strikes Kores arm with a loud "CRACK" and show of pain from Kore, and then he swithes hands to hold it with his left?
Is Kore hurt? Was the CRACK the armor breaking? But it was in the Golem font? Why was half the page devoted to Thaco landing and so little used to explain the grapple, the helmet switch and the fact that Kore seems to hear them now? Kore is looking over the shoulder for the voices. Why is he charging the dungeon gimmick he just threw? AWAY from the place he knows the pilots to be?
OK, here's my fight analysis: After last fight, Kore was running away from the wall the Golem just slammed him in, straight towards the GAP. The Golem jumped him, and Kore lifted him up, still facing the GAP.

This page, first thing he does is throw the Golem to his left. In front of him would just leave the Golem between him and his goal, behind him would be pretty ineffective. He sees that the Golem manages to immediately recover, so just starting to run towards the GAP again would open him up to another attack in the back, so he chooses to turn to his left and charge the Golem.

Second, the fight itself. Kore swings his right arm, but the Golem sidesteps the swings, and grabs the back of Kore's hand with his right hand. next frame he uses his left hand to break Kore's elbow past the point of where it should be able to bend (ouch). That might also only be the armor cracking open, showing us his arms are just as infected as the side of his head.

But then we get to the penultimate frame, and this one is a bit fucky. The Golem now seems to be holding on to Kore's arm with his LEFT hand, so after breaking the elbow he found it necessary to switch hands? Kore hears the GAP talking and looks behind him, while the GAP is hiding behind pillars which are currently over his right shoulder. So I don't get the feeling he's facing where he's hearing the sound coming from.

What might be possible and would be awesomely gruesome: Kore uses the fact that his arm is broken at the elbow to continue pivoting to the left until his right forearm just rips off, and he continues running towards Big Ears.

And then speculation: Big Ears will slam the helmet on Kore's head, who will get disoriented, see himself stand far away in an opposite corner of the room, being stabbed, kicked, punched, magicked by a savage group of four little goblins, while we see the Golem contort in painful expressions, until it ends up sprawled out on the floor.

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Krulle » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:17 am

Generic wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:07 am
Krulle wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:55 am
Minmax to save the day! (prediction for one of the next pages)

Minmax is the only one who still did not use the helmet (or is about to immediately use it).

He'll be the last user, and he already packs quite a punch compared to the Goblins.

(But I fear he might be dumb enough to not take the helmet along into the next rooms, and just tosses it aside before leaving the room - which is only a relevant prediction if Kore somehow survives but is grappled by the statue when the GAP/MM leave)
I guess Kin does not count?
Kin is not yet part of the group (she's still trapped in the silenced room), and furthermore not in this room. She can therefore not yet interfere in this fight, or Ellipsis would've to let her escape OFF-Panel while showing her getting trapped in sufficient detail to make it part of the story.
That would be rather bad writing.

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Generic » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:23 am

Krulle wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:17 am
Generic wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:07 am
Krulle wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:55 am
Minmax to save the day! (prediction for one of the next pages)

Minmax is the only one who still did not use the helmet (or is about to immediately use it).

He'll be the last user, and he already packs quite a punch compared to the Goblins.

(But I fear he might be dumb enough to not take the helmet along into the next rooms, and just tosses it aside before leaving the room - which is only a relevant prediction if Kore somehow survives but is grappled by the statue when the GAP/MM leave)
I guess Kin does not count?
Kin is not yet part of the group (she's still trapped in the silenced room), and furthermore not in this room. She can therefore not yet interfere in this fight, or Ellipsis would've to let her escape OFF-Panel while showing her getting trapped in sufficient detail to make it part of the story.
That would be rather bad writing.
MinMax and Forgath teleported into this plotline, and Kin did the same just a bit ago. I don't think that is off the table at this point.

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Hjerne » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:43 am

Generic wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:09 pm
What is happening?
Kore tosses the Golem, to the side? In front of him? Behind him? The wall behind him is gone in a grey void so I got no sense of direction or distance anymore. Alright, I get the flippy cool tumbly monk part. But what is happening then? Thaco catches Kores arm and breaks the elbow? He blocks/catches it with his right arm, strikes Kores arm with a loud "CRACK" and show of pain from Kore, and then he swithes hands to hold it with his left?
Is Kore hurt? Was the CRACK the armor breaking? But it was in the Golem font? Why was half the page devoted to Thaco landing and so little used to explain the grapple, the helmet switch and the fact that Kore seems to hear them now? Kore is looking over the shoulder for the voices. Why is he charging the dungeon gimmick he just threw? AWAY from the place he knows the pilots to be?

This is not a good page I think. This is a fight scene and right now I don't know the location, direction or condition of the fighters. What is worse, I don't know the mood anymore. It stops the momentum from the previous page. Kore was pumped. He picked up the Golem over his head as if he was in a golem pillow fight. He was hulking up! Dice is cast and chips are down! It's purge all evil time!
And then it just grinds to a halt in an awkward grapple. Kore should be over them by know. Ears frantically putting on the helmet. Or realizing that this is something he needs to do personally. Whatever. Drama. Action. What Thaco does with his last action is less important. I already know Thaco is able to pull stunts like this. This only makes Kore seem distracted (when half of his thing is unearthly focus).

So what if he pulls the hand of his gauntlet at this point? They stopped his momentum already. Will him building it up again create more gravitas? We already know Kore is indestructable, so less armour does not really matter. The action has stopped, and nothing of great importance has been clearly conveyed. (Apart from Kore being grappled now. So what? He was grappled in the last page as well. He clearly showed us that did not matter. And the grappling got a whopping...Third of the page? Quarter of the page? Less than what the Golem landing got.)

Somebody recently tweeted that the Goblins fight scenes were even better than the rest of the comic. I would have to say the person tweeting that was raised on action movies that rely on closeups and quick cuts to make you think something exciting is happening even though you can't tell what is gong on until the fight is done. Remember when Kore used his shield mechanism to flip back to his feet and literally nobody knew what was going on until it was explained and the panel was redrawn to make it clearer? Eli has never quite gotten that even if she has a panoramic view in her head, we only have what is shown. Honestly in some of the fights just showing the characters eyeball closeup would convey as much information as the panel does.

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Generic » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:18 am

Hjerne wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:43 am
Generic wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:09 pm
[Omitted for brevity]

Somebody recently tweeted that the Goblins fight scenes were even better than the rest of the comic. I would have to say the person tweeting that was raised on action movies that rely on closeups and quick cuts to make you think something exciting is happening even though you can't tell what is gong on until the fight is done. Remember when Kore used his shield mechanism to flip back to his feet and literally nobody knew what was going on until it was explained and the panel was redrawn to make it clearer? Eli has never quite gotten that even if she has a panoramic view in her head, we only have what is shown. Honestly in some of the fights just showing the characters eyeball closeup would convey as much information as the panel does.
And I still don't get it. The shield, and it's mechanism is gone now. Showing that strange strange lever... action... thing... did nothing. Ultimately it served no purpose. Noone foiled Kore by pulling it themselves. He never used it for anything interesting. He could as well just have popped up like he just did with the Golem. Or just not fall in the first place. The shield action was confusing and served no purpose.

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by redfeather » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:25 am

I totally don't see a Mind Flayer among Kore's victims in panel 6, since that would be copyrighted.

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Krulle » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:32 am

Generic wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:23 am
Krulle wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:17 am
Generic wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:07 am
I guess Kin does not count?
Kin is not yet part of the group (she's still trapped in the silenced room), and furthermore not in this room. She can therefore not yet interfere in this fight, or Ellipsis would've to let her escape OFF-Panel while showing her getting trapped in sufficient detail to make it part of the story.
That would be rather bad writing.
MinMax and Forgath teleported into this plotline, and Kin did the same just a bit ago. I don't think that is off the table at this point.
Nobody has access to the teleorting tool (Jade Teapot) right now, so no teleporting.

Hjerne wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:43 am
Somebody recently tweeted that the Goblins fight scenes were even better than the rest of the comic. I would have to say the person tweeting that was raised on action movies that rely on closeups and quick cuts to make you think something exciting is happening even though you can't tell what is gong on until the fight is done. Remember when Kore used his shield mechanism to flip back to his feet and literally nobody knew what was going on until it was explained and the panel was redrawn to make it clearer? Eli has never quite gotten that even if she has a panoramic view in her head, we only have what is shown. Honestly in some of the fights just showing the characters eyeball closeup would convey as much information as the panel does.
Yeah, I found that person tweeting also rather optimistic.
Nope, not a fan of action scenes in comics. (Nor in films, especially the close-up and excessive cutted scene type.)
Main disadvantage are the loss of orientation, difficult to convey in sufficient detail to make if "flow" through the panels (although Ellipsis is rather good at that, see the tumbling in this page's first panel - however unlikely it is to pull off such a move when piloting such a thing for the first time, and being phyically in a completely different position than the piloted statue at the start of the moves, at least I assume the helmet doesn't pull Thaco into the air when Kore lifts the statue).
But they take a lot of time to draw well, and they don't progress the story.
I could do with a lot less of them.
But sometimes you need panels1 to convey the impression it is a hard fight.
There is no "perfect balance" between the need to show the action and difficulty of the fight, and the need to progress the story.
Since I'm here for the story, I am biased in what I want to read.


1(not the action in the panels, but the number of panels to make it feel like a hard-won fight.)

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Rooks » Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:55 am

Generic wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:09 pm
And then it just grinds to a halt in an awkward grapple. Kore should be over them by know. Ears frantically putting on the helmet. Or realizing that this is something he needs to do personally. Whatever. Drama. Action. What Thaco does with his last action is less important. I already know Thaco is able to pull stunts like this. This only makes Kore seem distracted (when half of his thing is unearthly focus).
Literally all of grappling in 3.5e was awkward. So it fits perfectly to me. :)
TheOneThatGotAway wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:30 am
And then speculation: Big Ears will slam the helmet on Kore's head, who will get disoriented, see himself stand far away in an opposite corner of the room, being stabbed, kicked, punched, magicked by a savage group of four little goblins, while we see the Golem contort in painful expressions, until it ends up sprawled out on the floor.
That's genius. I really hope that happens.
Hjerne wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:43 am
Somebody recently tweeted that the Goblins fight scenes were even better than the rest of the comic. I would have to say the person tweeting that was raised on action movies that rely on closeups and quick cuts to make you think something exciting is happening even though you can't tell what is gong on until the fight is done. Remember when Kore used his shield mechanism to flip back to his feet and literally nobody knew what was going on until it was explained and the panel was redrawn to make it clearer? Eli has never quite gotten that even if she has a panoramic view in her head, we only have what is shown. Honestly in some of the fights just showing the characters eyeball closeup would convey as much information as the panel does.
Honestly, I'm always a bit surprised that people complain about Eli's battles scenes as much as they do. Every one is fully entitled to their own opinions, but, to me, it's just a comic. Let your imagination fill in the details. You got the point that Kore used a mechanism of his shield to flip himself back onto his feet. That's all you need. Doesn't matter how it works or why it works, it just does because the DM said it worked. Likewise, in this one, you get the concept that Kore is in battle with the golem and by the end is grappled because Thaco stated as such. Why do the pictures ALWAYS have to tell the full story? Who cares if they don't make perfect sense. D&D doesn't make sense a lot of the time. Just my 2 cents. I know it's not going to change people who love to dissect every frame and find all of Eli's tiny little details (and, in turn, the errors), but imagination has to come into play a little bit for this.

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by jbrecken » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:24 am

Generic wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:07 am
I guess Kin does not count?
If Kin were to show up and wear the helmet, how would the golem move? - would it keep its legs together and try to slither around on its knees, or would the magic of the helmet translate her desire for locomotion into walking?

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Generic » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:34 pm

Rooks wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:55 am

Literally all of grappling in 3.5e was awkward. So it fits perfectly to me. :)
:D
Rooks wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:55 am
Honestly, I'm always a bit surprised that people complain about Eli's battles scenes as much as they do. Every one is fully entitled to their own opinions, but, to me, it's just a comic. Let your imagination fill in the details. You got the point that Kore used a mechanism of his shield to flip himself back onto his feet. That's all you need. Doesn't matter how it works or why it works, it just does because the DM said it worked. Likewise, in this one, you get the concept that Kore is in battle with the golem and by the end is grappled because Thaco stated as such. Why do the pictures ALWAYS have to tell the full story? Who cares if they don't make perfect sense. D&D doesn't make sense a lot of the time. Just my 2 cents. I know it's not going to change people who love to dissect every frame and find all of Eli's tiny little details (and, in turn, the errors), but imagination has to come into play a little bit for this.
It's not so much what is missing, but what is happening and where the story goes.
If the GM goes:
"The dragon glares at you. With a heaving motion it tears the harpoon straight out of it's scaly chest, gives a mighty roar and charges-... away from you. At that other thing. Oh, no. It's done with it. Now it's coming! Beware!"
I will secretly wish she would just go with the cool flow that was built up and not deflate the tension mid sentence.

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Zeus1976 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:44 pm

I don't understand how people are finding this difficult to follow.

Kore throws golem, which Thac0 uses his monk skills to acrobatics right himself, he gets into his stance, angry kore charges and slap bang wallop. Kore is then grappled.

As another user has said use imagination to fill in any blanks.

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Hjerne » Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:24 pm

Zeus1976 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:44 pm
I don't understand how people are finding this difficult to follow.

Kore throws golem, which Thac0 uses his monk skills to acrobatics right himself, he gets into his stance, angry kore charges and slap bang wallop. Kore is then grappled.

As another user has said use imagination to fill in any blanks.
I had a long explanation of artists knowing their weak points but you probably would have ignored it because it conflicts with your beliefs, so let's put it this way.


You are watching the subway fight in the Matrix. You see the back and forth advantage gaining. Neo gets hit back to the base of the stairs, the scene cuts to him lying in the chair and spitting blood. Cut back to him standing up and giving Smith the 'come get it' gesture. But instead of continuing the fight it cuts back to Neo,Trinity, and Tank. Neo thrashes around in the chair a bit and then it cuts back to the subway with Smith holding Neo in a headlock in front of the oncoming train. Are you satisfied filling in the blanks yourself? Or would you rather the choreographer continued the amazing job they were previously doing and told you how the two of them got from point A to point B?

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Generic » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:51 am

Zeus1976 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:44 pm
I don't understand how people are finding this difficult to follow.

Kore throws golem, which Thac0 uses his monk skills to acrobatics right himself, he gets into his stance, angry kore charges and slap bang wallop. Kore is then grappled.

As another user has said use imagination to fill in any blanks.
Cool. Then you tell me:Was Kore's arm or arm-armour just broken? Both? None?

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by iffi » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:03 am

Hi to all you good people! A short while ago someone here asked why Kore was suddenly able to talk without any problems. After re-re-re-rereading the current comic it occurred to me that is it actually the other mouths around his head that are uttering this ..Kk..K..KK.. thing? So Kore is a stoic silent type of (insert your guess what he actually is) and those other mouths keep trying to say something.. What are they trying to say though? Just ..Kore? Seems anticlimatic. Or perhaps Klease Kelease Ks Krom Khis Kurse Knd Ket Ks Kest Kn Kease? Or what?

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by TheSedated » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:43 pm

Iffi, Kore is talking since the first time he was at the comic's focus (iirc, when he came to the monster pub where Hawl the trader and the others, including the dwarf youngling, were killed). He started his kkkk-thing right when the rope got fused to his chest. Probably because of unfixed damage caused by the rope. As we know from another occasion (Complains breaking his arm in Brassmoon and getting healed by Chief), low level healing magic doesn't properly fix damage and Lay on Hands, which Kore used to heal himself, is quite low level.

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Krulle » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:02 pm

Hjerne wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:24 pm
Zeus1976 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:44 pm
I don't understand how people are finding this difficult to follow.

Kore throws golem, which Thac0 uses his monk skills to acrobatics right himself, he gets into his stance, angry kore charges and slap bang wallop. Kore is then grappled.

As another user has said use imagination to fill in any blanks.
I had a long explanation of artists knowing their weak points but you probably would have ignored it because it conflicts with your beliefs, so let's put it this way.


You are watching the subway fight in the Matrix. You see the back and forth advantage gaining. Neo gets hit back to the base of the stairs, the scene cuts to him lying in the chair and spitting blood. Cut back to him standing up and giving Smith the 'come get it' gesture. But instead of continuing the fight it cuts back to Neo,Trinity, and Tank. Neo thrashes around in the chair a bit and then it cuts back to the subway with Smith holding Neo in a headlock in front of the oncoming train. Are you satisfied filling in the blanks yourself? Or would you rather the choreographer continued the amazing job they were previously doing and told you how the two of them got from point A to point B?
This IS a different medium.
This works in panels, which do have gaps in them.
A film has many more images available per scene, and is therefor by nature more suitable to give action scenes a full go.
Comics can't do full sequences. You do need to fill in much larger blanks than in a film.
OTOH, in a film I get no rest to appreciate or think about particular scenes, I can't rewatch them as easily as I can reread a page of comic panels.

No comparison possible.

Also, I would complain about that kind of proposed action scene cuts, but then I already complain about the Matrix scenes as they are already, but the film still allows for my brain to "stitch it together".
This comics actions scenes also allow so.

Sufficient for me to make it work.

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Re: 22 July 2019 - Thudthump

Post by Generic » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:45 pm

iffi wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:03 am
Hi to all you good people! A short while ago someone here asked why Kore was suddenly able to talk without any problems. After re-re-re-rereading the current comic it occurred to me that is it actually the other mouths around his head that are uttering this ..Kk..K..KK.. thing? So Kore is a stoic silent type of (insert your guess what he actually is) and those other mouths keep trying to say something.. What are they trying to say though? Just ..Kore? Seems anticlimatic. Or perhaps Klease Kelease Ks Krom Khis Kurse Knd Ket Ks Kest Kn Kease? Or what?
Could be. We already know he is talking to himself.

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