Comment of coloring, good or bad, here

[kijihir]

I, for one, greatly appreciate the shading. I think it brings a lot of mood to the comic, and helps to define objects. For example, while the KinSlayer death scene was gorgeous before, the shading lends it a new sense of urgency. (This is just my opinion, however.)
http://www.goblinscomic.com/03282013/

[willpell]

Not a huge fan of today's update. Very little enhancement of details, and having Psimax darkened because he's in front of the lighted treasure room made panel 4 significantly less enjoyable to me (the original is one of my favorites in some time, if I get ambitious I may turn it into a new avatar). The only part I'd call an improvement is the squished mace, which looks much more three-dimensional now.

[extrabigmehdi]

I, for one, greatly appreciate the shading. I think it brings a lot of mood to the comic, and helps to define objects. For example, while the KinSlayer death scene was gorgeous before, the shading lends it a new sense of urgency. (This is just my opinion, however.)
http://www.goblinscomic.com/03282013/

I'm not sure what you mean by the "new sense of urgency".
But I like the coloring work of this page, I find the fight looks like "out of time", I mean, just like in a fairy tale. Once upon a time , there was a fight, and it was epic.
I actually love the last pic here:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/03252013/

[extrabigmehdi]

Not a huge fan of today's update. Very little enhancement of details, and having Psimax darkened because he's in front of the lighted treasure room made panel 4 significantly less enjoyable to me (the original is one of my favorites in some time, if I get ambitious I may turn it into a new avatar). The only part I'd call an improvement is the squished mace, which looks much more three-dimensional now.

Well the shading helps to understand that the other, closed room, is illuminated.

[Glemp]

Not a huge fan of today's update. Very little enhancement of details, and having Psimax darkened because he's in front of the lighted treasure room made panel 4 significantly less enjoyable to me (the original is one of my favorites in some time, if I get ambitious I may turn it into a new avatar).

You mean panel 5.

[/nitpick]

[Sleaw]

I'm a major fan of the shading/coloring, loved it since it was introduced. It really gives the art that added bit that actually makes me go 'wow!'

[mortissimus]

You don't pay me; Thunt does. He's the only one I have to please. Being that the unshaded works are always posted before I get a chance to work on them, just right click and save the images to your computer.

This I will NOT do.

Your proposal includes quite a few legal problems. And in my line of work, I cannot be permitted to violate copyright laws in such blatant ways, even if the specific author of the copyrighted work does seem to not mind a single private copy. It still is a violation of copyright law in my country.

Your country's copyright laws does not allow you to move an image-file from one place in your computers memory to another place in your computers memory? That is just silly. Hit the streets, demand your right to move files!

[mortissimus]

Oh, yeah.

From the thread that spawned this one:

Have I mentioned how much the coloring improved the zombie corridors scenes? Well, if not, then I am doing it now. Really added a scariness factor that was not there before.

So there.

[Changes_everything]

Your proposal includes quite a few legal problems. And in my line of work, I cannot be permitted to violate copyright laws in such blatant ways, even if the specific author of the copyrighted work does seem to not mind a single private copy. It still is a violation of copyright law in my country.

And what country might that be? I seem to recall that you're German; if so, you're very much mistaken.

[LAYF]

You don't pay me; Thunt does. He's the only one I have to please. Being that the unshaded works are always posted before I get a chance to work on them, just right click and save the images to your computer.

This I will NOT do.

Your proposal includes quite a few legal problems. And in my line of work, I cannot be permitted to violate copyright laws in such blatant ways, even if the specific author of the copyrighted work does seem to not mind a single private copy. It still is a violation of copyright law in my country.

Your country's copyright laws does not allow you to move an image-file from one place in your computers memory to another place in your computers memory? That is just silly. Hit the streets, demand your right to move files!

Moving a single file is no problem. but moving the entire works of Goblins is, that goes for all of europe and usa. goblins is a copy righted book, and you can even buy the book in digital version (don't know about hard copies)
so coping it willl be a vioalation of the law... dont know where the limit is (don't remember) but it think its something about 10% or 4 pages, unless other premission is given strictly from the creator AND publicher... (yea, they earn money on it two, so they two got a say in it (unless all rights are kept by the creator... sadly that is not seen often))

Your proposal includes quite a few legal problems. And in my line of work, I cannot be permitted to violate copyright laws in such blatant ways, even if the specific author of the copyrighted work does seem to not mind a single private copy. It still is a violation of copyright law in my country.

And what country might that be? I seem to recall that you're German; if so, you're very much mistaken.

How so...a copy, no matter the number of copies made, is still a copy, and a violation of the copy right law, again, unless specific premission is given..
Now.. there are back up copies, that he is allowed to make, but those would require him to own the comic in the first place, since it is not sold before it is shaded and colored, this is not posible....

[TinSoldier]

Do people not understand the concept of what "copyright" is? It means that the author retains the rights to say who can and cannot copy a work, and in limited cases, to what uses those copies can be put (such as sharing with others, commercial exploitation, etc.).

I think that Thunt has a pretty liberal copyright policy where it comes to personal use. The government and the law only has a say if you use Thunt's work in a way which is inconsistent with his wishes, and then he asks you to stop, and then if you don't then he can sue you.

Only in the most extreme cases can criminal charges be brought, and in the case of Goblins they would have to be very extreme indeed.

So no, saving a copy of a Goblins comic to your personal computer is not a violation of Thunt's copyright. That falls squarely under the rubric of "fair use" anyway.

[Corpsificus]

I'm in the boat that the coloring is good. Goblins has its own style and is more cartoon than realistic, but some aspects of physics and reality are best included. Shading and coloring adds depth to Goblins and makes it appear more realistic, thus complementing the stylized art of Thunt. I like your style and realistic approach to lighting and shadows. That's all I have to say in a nutshell. Keep up the good work. d

[Krulle]

Do people not understand the concept of what "copyright" is?

Yes. It IS my line of work. That is why I am not willing to make use of THunts otherwise generally relaxed view on his rights, as well as the unlikeliness of someone affiliated to Mr. Stephens to find out about any possible illegal private copies.

So no, saving a copy of a Goblins comic to your personal computer is not a violation of Thunt's copyright. That falls squarely under the rubric of "fair use" anyway.

No, "fair use" does not exist in European Laws as such. Courts have stated limits to the applicability of the copyright laws to non-commercial usages, but Morikahns proposal falls far outside of any limitation of applicability of the European IP-laws. So, your reasoning does not apply. Also, even in the US, fair use has its limits, and copying the whole work definitely falls outside of "fair use". Making avatars falls within "fair use", especially if they are only used on sited related to the material.

You don't pay me; Thunt does. He's the only one I have to please. Being that the unshaded works are always posted before I get a chance to work on them, just right click and save the images to your computer.

This I will NOT do.

Moving a single file is no problem. but moving the entire works of Goblins is, that goes for all of Europe and USoA. goblins is a copy righted book, and you can even buy the book in digital version (don't know about hard copies)
so coping it will be a violation of the law... don't know where the limit is (don't remember) but it think its something about 10% or 4 pages, unless other permission is given strictly from the creator AND publisher... (yea, they earn money on it two, so they two got a say in it (unless all rights are kept by the creator... sadly that is not seen often))

10% is more or less correct, depends on the specific copied parts (a bit more is acceptable, if that completes a topic - but copying complete chapters is out of the question again, as a chapter by itself is seen as copyrighted material). 7 pages is the minimum maximum (the lowest border of what you're allowed to use for educational purposes, strictly private usage does not have a lowest minimum, but the courts orient themselves on the better defined rules for commercial/educational purposes).

And what country might that be? I seem to recall that you're German; if so, you're very much mistaken.

How so...a copy, no matter the number of copies made, is still a copy, and a violation of the copy right law, again, unless specific permission is given..
Now.. there are back up copies, that he is allowed to make, but those would require him to own the comic in the first place, since it is not sold before it is shaded and colored, this is not possible....

I am German, but I don't live in Germany. But even in Germany this proposal violates the copyright laws for private use. If I had bought a copy of the work with the unshaded pages (which is not possible), then the courts would look away, as I could always make legal copies of the bought book, which the courts decided that this is seen as the same as having copies from the internet, as long as the internet copies do not add value to the owned copy (e.g. by having a higher resolution; by being digital whereas the owned copy I have is dead tree; ....). That again could make the internet copies illegal, depending on the court (rule of thumb: the higher the instance, the stricter the rules are interpreted).
LAYF already formulated it very well, so I'll not add to it more.


Just this: A lot members of my family, and other friends, tell me that it is legal for private uses......
Well, one of them has to defend himself in front of court right now. But I told him that it is too late to regret....
What is regrettable, is that he actually never read the off-line copies. Reading them on-line is so much faster if you wish to find a certain passage, or wish to re-read a certain passage. So he had no advantage of having off-line copies of the work he copied (not Goblinscomic), yet he still has to defend himself.
That is another reason why I don't. The effort put into the copying in the end can not be recovered.....


And as others stated: I am here for the storyline. The great art was a hookup to start reading into Goblinscomic, by now it's just an added bonus to the storyline.



I find it interesting that we haven't read a single reply of Morikahn here yet. I would be interested if he even skimmes this thread...

[Elvors]

As he said, he won't defend himself. (Given the baseness of some statements, the thread would instantly erupt into a flame war if he did, so he's probably wiser to not react.)

In response to Morikahn's starting post: The shading often adds to the mood, but it tends to drown details.
Case in point: Tower room battle. (EDIT: Thas wasn't very precise, I meant the last panel of http://www.goblinscomic.com/03022013/ .) It's simply too dark overall, you can't see a darned thing (okay, I'm exaggerating, but it gets far harder to see who's doing what, and a huge part of the fun in his comics is seeing all these details - the shading is making it much harder).
So, my request would be to have far more subtle shading.
The matching saying over here would be: "Mastery shows under restraint." (Not saying anything about your skills though. I couldn't judge whether that's apprentice, journeyman, or master level.)

[Krulle]

Well, there are discussions about non-art things he started... he could comment on that...
But I find it likelier anyway, that he is focussing on doing his stuff, meaning getting around shading the comic, or doing other things for himself.

But your critique more or less fits with my feelings about the shading.


Plus, personally, I simply prefer the "naive" art style with shadowing instead of full shading.

[RocketScientist]

Quick question for Europeans. Does not the Berne Convention supersede local laws in international matters between signatories? I would think we should be referring to those laws, rather than the laws of individual countries other than Canada.

[Krulle]

Yet if someone files a charge, local laws applies.
The Berne Convention does not have the status of law.
It regulates the recognition of copyrightable works made in a foreign country as being recognised and protected in the other signatory states.... Without it, states could ignore the intellectual works made abroad and simply copy the works without any recognition for the original artist.

The copyright laws of the local state still apply.
Canada and all of the European Union are signatories, therefore THunts work is copyrighted in the EU member states as if it is work originating from an inhabitant. Under local laws. At least until 50 years after the authors death.

Most of the regulations are also in the TRIPS agreement of the WTO, so virtually all countries have to give copyright protection to all works, even if they did not sign the Berne Convention.

Edit: Also, the Berne Convention does not force states to provide a "Fair Use" policy, but it allows states to have one, even for works originating from states which do not have such a policy.

[Sessine]

So... wait. You're saying that an artist cannot allow people to copy any more than 10% of his own work? That people are going to be in legal trouble with... someone... even if the artist says "Go ahead, I don't mind"? Huh. That seems... entirely odd. You should inform Cory Doctorow about this.

Of course, Thunt has not weighed in on this conversation, so we don't know if he'd mind or not. I expect if he said, "I'd rather you didn't," most of us here wouldn't need any laws to make us respect his wishes.

Oh -- back on topic. Yes. In general, I love the colouring. I think it adds a lot. There are times when it's absolutely stunning.

Occasionally, it does obscure some useful detail that I'm sorry to lose, but there have also been panels where it has really made what's happening much clearer. Most importantly, I'm willing to remember that it's unreasonable to expect perfection. Forest is going to put a foot wrong here or there, that's the nature of such a high-pressure job, but he's shown that he thinks about what didn't work so well, and the next time there's a similar shading it comes out better.

What I'd say is: Great job, Forest. But maybe... try toning down the contrast where there's a lot of tiny detail. That would make your work even greater!

[Earthen]

By the way, I'm admiring Forest's texturing of Dellyn-Kin's hair in this strip. I've thought for a while that Kin's hair would benefit from more texture.

http://www.goblinscomic.com/03282013/

[Liesmith]

I really like Forest's work, and I also really like the unshaded version, and I also really like the Thunticolour^tm style that was used before Forest was hired.

I guess it's just a good comic, and everyone who works on it is very talented, so the fact that the styles are all very different from one another doesn't bother me at all.

[illocust]

I actually really enjoy the shaded work. I'm a little sad that I don't get to enjoy the shading as the comic is posted, but I understand time constraints and update schedules. Hopefully, all the future goblins books will be shaded.

[willpell]

So... wait. You're saying that an artist cannot allow people to copy any more than 10% of his own work? That people are going to be in legal trouble with... someone... even if the artist says "Go ahead, I don't mind"? Huh. That seems... entirely odd. You should inform Cory Doctorow about this.

No doubt that law exists to protect the "right" of the publishing company to ruthlessly exploit their audience for the maximum possible profit and crush any upstart who dares to enjoy their product without having paid for the privilege, even if the owner of the copyright they've merely licensed is a chill bro who'd rather make people happy (and get wider publicity and potentially more profits down the road; some companies manage to eventually figure that part out, especially if their marketing department points it out, but the law gives them the right to ignore the logic even then, if they'd rather just put more money into their shareholders' pockets right now, and/or enforce dominance so that they seem powerful enough to attract more investors).

Occasionally, it does obscure some useful detail that I'm sorry to lose, but there have also been panels where it has really made what's happening much clearer. Most importantly, I'm willing to remember that it's unreasonable to expect perfection.

But making both versions unavailable means that there are twice as many chances for something to go wrong with the only version that ends up existing.

[QuakeIV]

I think the shading is well done except that it seems too aggressive. Its crazy how aggressively lit people look, while it resembles reality it (for instance) seems like torches are small suns or something. I would mind less if the pages didn't seem to obnoxiously scream "HEY LOOK I'M SHADED!!1!" and were a bit more subtle.

With that said I don't hate it, and its certainly better than without shading, it just sets off one of my petty pet peeves so to speak.

[Changes_everything]

I am German, but I don't live in Germany. But even in Germany this proposal violates the copyright laws for private use.

No, it does not, and that's not even a question of how a judge would look at it, it's plainly laid out in law. You are, erm, missing § 53 UrhG, which explicitly states:

Zul├ñssig sind einzelne Vervielf├ñltigungen eines Werkes durch eine nat├╝rliche Person zum privaten Gebrauch auf beliebigen Tr├ñgern, sofern sie weder unmittelbar noch mittelbar Erwerbszwecken dienen, soweit nicht zur Vervielf├ñltigung eine offensichtlich rechtswidrig hergestellte oder ├Âffentlich zug├ñnglich gemachte Vorlage verwendet wird.

For everybody who does not speak German here, this law states that an individual is allowed to make a copy of a protected work, as long as this copying does not serve commercial purposes, directly or indirectly, and as long as it's not from a source that is obviously illegal (such as P2P networks).

--
Also, manchmal ist es gut den Ball flach zu halten

[Krulle]

► Show Spoiler

Yet, the copy Morikahn proposed that I should save will not be available later on. Therefore, I could not have it.
I copied something that is not a finished work.

Unfinished works are protected (they have still been made), but the exceptions will not be applied....
If the author of a work withdraws its work, because he deemed it not to be finished, even a private user must delete all his private copies.
I might search for it later, don't know the courts decision by heart. (The judge did let the guy go anyway on this point, since the Staatsanwalt (prosecutor) could not prove that the guy distributed or shared copies, or passed his copy of the unfinished work on. He was found guilty on other cases though, so that might have been a point why the judge let this one point go.)

Aber wie ich schrieb, es ist bei mir stark die pers├Ânliche Position die es mir verbietet. Ich glaube n├ñmlich nicht, dass Herr Stephens ein Problem mti einer Privatkopie h├ñtte.

Sorry, Morikahn. Even this thread gets totally derailed by me.