The solution for the mazy of many

[obaldius]

A theory of mine, I don't know if it is plausible or completely wrong... let me know!
I came up with it a week or so ago, finally found the time to post it:

It is about the maze of many, about what is is, how I think it works, why psionic minmax is dooing all this.
I 'll try to keep it short.

First, Kin was slightly wrong. The maze of many is a trap, there is no way out.
http://www.goblinscomic.com/02112011-4/ Here she explains that every version of them that wins is left out, while the rest restarts and the winners get replaced by new guys. This is wrong.

If they never win the maze, they can never return. ergo they are dead... but since they can try unlimited times, chances are even the biggest losers win. Because anytime you travers a dungeon, there are countless alts doing the same crawl, we conclude the time is synchronized. so if one reality wins, they would have to wait until all potential winners win until they can continue their timeline...

No reality can be created, or it would be of less value (irrelevant of winning) then the others. Either way, the dungeon exists to let every reality win eventually, by replacing the winning alts with easier ones (then playing 1982771 is really bad). OR the winning alts get removed from the game. Believing we started with 1982989 realities and so far 1982771 have won and are waiting. But after a win, kin believes there has never been a 219TH reality...

Because psionic minmax knows the maze from inside out, and he knows every player's move, the maze must always be the same and contain the same players. Ergo, the winners stays in.
OR he must always be the one to win, but then his reality disappear... (he would at least have tried once to win wouldn't he?)


No, the winners stay in! And this is how it goes.
About 817 times psionic minmax killed his companions...

The psionic minmax's reality consists of Minmax: the thinker (does everything with his mind, has extreme ideas and therefore is often in conflict with the rest). Forgath: the temperamental (a strong dwarf, but doesn't know any boundaries). And Kin: she is quiet, and can see 5 minutes into the furure (this is why she doenst say a word in her scene, because she know she is getting killed .. yes, yes, just like any other 816 times...I just need a strong and divers team to make the story believable)

This awesome team is a real potential winner. just like a few other realities, they have won several times (but have never escaped the dungeon). Every time they win, the dungeon simply resets, every team loses memory (and gear), except for the winning team (they do get to keep their prises and loots for the next round).

So every time a team wins, they have many questions why they haven't escaped. Or they try to win agains as fast as possible, or they get outrun by another team (or die), and forget they ever won in the first place.
Psionic's team wins a couple of times in a row. With Forgath's temper, he smashes everything... also the counter.. now they never forget, even if they loose.
Minmax comes with a plan. To end all suffering, they must obtain nirvana, oblivion. The only way out is death, but since they revive every game they must go further.
They get an argument, they kill him, next round he kills them... Anyway, here we are now. He know how to do it, and has tried.

http://www.goblinscomic.com/05042013/ Here he says it: I 'm trying to get us out of hell. Because even if we win, we only get to suffer again...

What will happen next:

Kin will get her healt back up, get in the treasure room one way or another, the dungeon will reset and they will remember everything (but still be in the dungeon). Because of the reset, she could have her tail back.. idk.

They figure it out, destroy their counter and head for the treasure room Psionic minmax.

They conclude to work together (since they practically can't die anymore) and think of a way out.



Destroying the counter wasn't cheating, it is the sole purpose of the dungeon. You see, Kin tells us how evil is ruling the universe. But the only way to win, is to work together with all the realities. To understand this concept, every counter has to be destroyed, and every reality must go to the treasure room. Once they have learned the concept of working together, they all win and get to go home.





Well, this is my version. I know I can't write for sh*t, but at least I tried.


-Obaldius-

[langerhans]

some elements of this theory have been mentioned in other threads, i'll respond with points that have already been made

First, Kin was slightly wrong. The maze of many is a trap, there is no way out.

if there was no way out how would kin know about the maze enough to know the contents of the treasure room and that it was called the maze of many?

No reality can be created, or it would be of less value (irrelevant of winning) then the others. Either way, the dungeon exists to let every reality win eventually, by replacing the winning alts with easier ones (then playing 1982771 is really bad). OR the winning alts get removed from the game. Believing we started with 1982989 realities and so far 1982771 have won and are waiting. But after a win, kin believes there has never been a 219TH reality...

i think that winning teams get replaced, so the winning alts ARE removed, but the number of realities remains the same

http://www.goblinscomic.com/05042013/ Here he says it: I 'm trying to get us out of hell. Because even if we win, we only get to suffer again...

he expands on his 'out of hell' comment in the next update (the most recent one) saying that he regards the natural state of the universe, the conflict between good and evil as a horrific set of rules, with no mention of the MoM being unwinnable, which you'd think would be the first thing he would mention to forgath when explaining his motives

[RedwoodElf]

some elements of this theory have been mentioned in other threads, i'll respond with points that have already been made

First, Kin was slightly wrong. The maze of many is a trap, there is no way out.

if there was no way out how would kin know about the maze enough to know the contents of the treasure room and that it was called the maze of many?

The Yuan Ti who lost the teapot used it to escape. And of course had to leave it behind, because that's how the teapot works.

[Glemp]

some elements of this theory have been mentioned in other threads, i'll respond with points that have already been made

First, Kin was slightly wrong. The maze of many is a trap, there is no way out.

if there was no way out how would kin know about the maze enough to know the contents of the treasure room and that it was called the maze of many?

The Yuan Ti who lost the teapot used it to escape. And of course had to leave it behind, because that's how the teapot works.

So why don't repeat winners use it?

[RedwoodElf]

So why don't repeat winners use it?

How do you know they haven't? Just because it's still here doesn't mean it hasn't been used...possibly millions of times...

[Glemp]

So why don't repeat winners use it?

How do you know they haven't? Just because it's still here doesn't mean it hasn't been used...possibly millions of times...

But the point of this theory is that winners can't escape. So if they can, then what's the point of this theory?

[AccursedBiscuit]

What if the only way to escape is by using the teapot? Hence why it's still there

[warwizard87]

i am thinking the maze isnt a trap, normally, but in this case it has entered a cycle were no one can win. the same thing has happened over and over and over. And it makes sense why to. each time a group wins it changes the possible out comes of each event. What has been happening, why psimax considers it hell, in part, is this particular set up keeps happening so that no one ever ends up winning the maze. No one gets to the end to win it. Same thing happens each time. what changed this time? Psimax putting his plan into motion. I can assume he had just watched each time previously to see the outcomes. But once he put his plans into motion he was no longer just observing he changed the situation, changed actions the runners would of taken, thus now he may of broken the cycle so someone, hopefully
our MFK group can win.

[shufly]

Your theory is interesting, but it does seem to be discounting one very important fact, why does anyone have to win each run?

PsiMax has his workshop room right next to the treasure room. This means to win, you have to go past him. PsiMax could have been keeping anyone from winning these past 800+ runs that he remembers. This would give him the time to observe each group, and figure out all his variables. It is probably a safe assumption that once everyone in the maze is dead, it resets. so if PsiMax kills anyone who gets near the treasure room, which would be somewhat easy, as presumably they would be injured, and he is assumed to be higher level at this point, no one would be able to win, and he kills himself when he runs out of variables to observe that run.

In addition, if the Maze is a trap that no one can get out of, the comic essentially is already dead. The comic has focused on the maze for over a year now, and with how difficult some of the pages were to draw, the effort probably would never have been made to draw them, as it would then be detracting from the story rather than adding to it. The comic is called goblins, not random adventuring party gets stuck in a trap.

[langerhans]

What will happen next:

Kin will get her healt back up, get in the treasure room one way or another, the dungeon will reset and they will remember everything (but still be in the dungeon). Because of the reset, she could have her tail back.. idk.

They figure it out, destroy their counter and head for the treasure room Psionic minmax.

They conclude to work together (since they practically can't die anymore) and think of a way out.



Destroying the counter wasn't cheating, it is the sole purpose of the dungeon. You see, Kin tells us how evil is ruling the universe. But the only way to win, is to work together with all the realities. To understand this concept, every counter has to be destroyed, and every reality must go to the treasure room. Once they have learned the concept of working together, they all win and get to go home.

In addition, if the Maze is a trap that no one can get out of, the comic essentially is already dead. The comic has focused on the maze for over a year now, and with how difficult some of the pages were to draw, the effort probably would never have been made to draw them, as it would then be detracting from the story rather than adding to it. The comic is called goblins, not random adventuring party gets stuck in a trap.

Thunt has also said that this set of updates (on a live stream, or twitter, or something) will draw the maze of many arc to a close and the next switch will be to the GAP, so in terms of pacing we're not too far from this story wrapping up, which would preclude a long winded solution

[MrBogey]

Where did it say how many times he ran through the dungeon? I know he says he killed his group 817 times.

Edit: Found it here: http://www.goblinscomic.com/01062012/

So the first time he ran it he did not kill his group. Interesting.

[sunbeam]

There is kind of a plot hole with that.

Psimax said he destroyed his counter.

Now it might take some special ability or unherbertly amount of power to do this, beyond what most of the alt groups have. Or maybe he planned to destroy it before he ever came into the dungeon.

But until he actually destroys the counter, he wouldn't remember any run he had been on. So did he destroy it on run 1? Was it on 1,000,000 when he did it?

And while everyone starts anew with the same memories when the dungeon restarts, no one has ever seen some really large number on that thing and destroyed it?

Also I want to say I'm a little disappointed in the card game. I thought "Alternate Realities" would have been about the Maze of Many and all the groups and their stories in it.

Instead it seems to be about... Goblins.

I have a confession to make, I started to read this around the time Forgath and Minmax killed Goblinslayer in Brassmoon. I've since read through the archives, but honestly I read this for the FMK party. I'm not really interested in the Goblins. I would also like to know about all the monsters that fled Brassmoon. I thought they (particularly the ogre and his little guy partner) were more interesting than the Goblins.

[Linkcharge]

Better yet, what if there's really only one run? There's no reset. When people come into the maze for the first time, the counter already has some number on it, making them think they've been through multiple runs, even though it's actually the first.

OK, so it doesn't work with PsiMax, but I still like the idea.

[MrBogey]

There is kind of a plot hole with that.

Psimax said he destroyed his counter.

Now it might take some special ability or unherbertly amount of power to do this, beyond what most of the alt groups have. Or maybe he planned to destroy it before he ever came into the dungeon.

But until he actually destroys the counter, he wouldn't remember any run he had been on. So did he destroy it on run 1? Was it on 1,000,000 when he did it?

And while everyone starts anew with the same memories when the dungeon restarts, no one has ever seen some really large number on that thing and destroyed it?

Also I want to say I'm a little disappointed in the card game. I thought "Alternate Realities" would have been about the Maze of Many and all the groups and their stories in it.

Instead it seems to be about... Goblins.

I have a confession to make, I started to read this around the time Forgath and Minmax killed Goblinslayer in Brassmoon. I've since read through the archives, but honestly I read this for the FMK party. I'm not really interested in the Goblins. I would also like to know about all the monsters that fled Brassmoon. I thought they (particularly the ogre and his little guy partner) were more interesting than the Goblins.

I was wondering that if he had many runs on it already but when he hit a certain number he reasoned that it just couldn't be right and he toasted his counter thus not allowing for an experience reset at the end. Thus the first time he destroyed it became the first run he remembers. Then the next run he destroyed it again and so forth.

The question raised by this is what triggers a reset. If it's the complete death of all members of the maze then it means he's died over 817 times. Though I suppose he could consider this run his 818th run. If not then something triggers a reset without death involved. Though since he's so ticked off at death and life, I'd like to think he's died that many times.

[Shadowslance]

In theory, yes the maze can be unable to be won. Every group could be killed off by the maze or alternatively each group could only have one or two survivors who don't want to go on without their companion and suicide. But to reach the millions of times they have failed the maze makes me suspect that there were several times this happened. Now how many realities are there though? We haven't seen anyone besides FMK and their alts so if a group did win over time the numbers should diminish and eventually everyone would win but following that logic these should only be a few groups in the maze so either FMK are very unlucky or something else is amiss.

As for "if the race is unwinable then how did Kin know the teapot was there" argument.maybe the person who got out used the teapot and left their group behind along with the teapot. As I recall when the teapot is used it stays where it was and does not travel with the person using it. Which explains why it is still in the maze.

[RJJ7]

I think that people are fixating a bit too much on the 2,000,000 runs our reality put in. It was the setup for some pretty hilarious reactions on the part of the party. It was comedy. If Thunt had stuck in a more realistic number, like 1,372, then the jokes wouldn't have packed nearly the same punch.

And actually, even if only a tiny, tiny fraction of all universes have a Minmax/Forgath/Kin group who want to run the maze, there will still be an infinite number of them, because there are an infinite number of realities. So the maze will never empty, even if there is a winner in every run.

[Liesmith]

I think it's reasonable to assume that the Maze has some sort of failsafe in the event of a stalemate, like if a group's counter rolls over to zero, they get booted from the maze without their prize.

I also think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that other groups would have smashed their counter for various reasons before. However, there are two possibilities after that: they either win on the same run, in which case smashing the counter did nothing, or they lose that run and restart.

If they restart, they'll immediately be aware that they suddenly remember the previous run. So, they'll smash their counter again (if it resets regardless of being destroyed, which I think is likely, given that not every room has a smashed counter) and keep their immense advantage. Eventually, they'll be able to Bill Murray through the Maze with no problem.

The only sticking point is the door that's opened by confusion...but even that is solvable: if they're clever, they can think of something that will confuse themselves each time. If they're not clever, they won't have any idea why the door opens at a different interval each time, so they'll become confused and the door will open.

[OnceUponATime]

the MoM could be an endles circle. if there's a finite number of realities and there are always 218 alts in the MoM, then at some point a winning alt would have to come back to the maze and run it again

[friedkitty]

Not necessarily. Note there is at least one alt group with a goblin. Gradually you would start getting more and more alternate realities with one goblin. Then more realities where you have two goblins and a kin. Then three goblins. Eventually you would get to a set of totally different alts that had no FMK at all, and start working through all of those realities.

[WhispersToSquirrels]

the MoM could be an endles circle. if there's a finite number of realities and there are always 218 alts in the MoM, then at some point a winning alt would have to come back to the maze and run it again

I think I remember reading somewhere that one of the premises was that there were and infinite number of realities.

Not necessarily. Note there is at least one alt group with a goblin. Gradually you would start getting more and more alternate realities with one goblin. Then more realities where you have two goblins and a kin. Then three goblins. Eventually you would get to a set of totally different alts that had no FMK at all, and start working through all of those realities.

That reminds me of the Amber novels by Roger Zelazny. The characters would move from universe to universe by changing things a little a time like that.