July 21, 2013: Checkmate

[Dancingrage]

As one who doesn't live on the forums, that little flashback panel was excellent.

On the other hand, does this exceed the longest known Chekov's Snipe from 8-Bit Theatre or not? I don't recall how much time between the first and last parts, but it was basically on opposite ends of the entire webcomic, so it was really long. Fairly sure Thunt started his before Clevinger finished his, but not exact on that, since I haven't checked 8-Bit since it finished up.

[Sleeping Bear]

masterzzan, ever since you called this in the thread for the July 6 update I've been hoping for this to happen. And it did. I'm a happy little bear now, and you have one heck of a talent in guessing what's gonna happen.

[Byzantine2]

Whether or not Minmax is aware of the number of thumb-murder techniques he can perform is irrelevant. All that matters is that he knows that specific number of attacks. He didn't try it because he knew 38 was Psimax's current weakness, he tried it because he was unarmed. And I admit that he could've learned more thumb attacks or even forgotten ones he already knew, and that would've rendered his attack useless against Psimax. Except...he didn't learn more or forget any. In a narrative, the author doesn't usually have to set aside time explaining how a character doesn't forget a specific thing, or doesn't learn a specific thing. They set aside time for the inverse of those two possibilities. He could also have forgotten that he's not supposed to draw oblivious, and wound up playing right into Psimax's plans...but he didn't.

i think you're misunderstanding my complaint here

goldmax was immune to psimax because his reality was number 38, which IS a universal constant that the reality bending machine can utilise. it's akin to making pi = 19.3759875
minmax knowing 38 ways to kill somebody with his thumbs is NOT a fundamental aspect of this universe, it's just some information on a character sheet.

it wouldn't matter if it was killing with his little toe or any other arbitrary non thing, it's the notion that it appears anything related to 38 could be made into a lethal weapon. ie minmax156 didn't try 38 thumb attacks, he simply killed psimax by using one of his 38 thumbattacks. because he did know 38 that made his thumbs lethal enough to kill what is arguably a much higher level character.

i would have been more accepting of minmax 156 using goldmax's weapon than of this thumb thing.

Minmax didn't actually know that 38 was psimax's weakness, he just found he was able to push his thumbs, and only his thumbs, through the shield. And besides, information on character sheets ARE universally defined information, things like levels aren't abstracts they are quite real, and while things can change that doesn't mean that as long as they hold they are not effective.

[The Scrub]

That wouldn't work.

Minmax is physically incapable of doing that.

Don't forget he is incapable of rhyming on purpose .
Otherwise he wouldn't have improved unarmed strike because that's what he traded his ability to rhyme on purpose for...
And then he would only be able to do non-lethal damage with an unarmed strike...

Then he wouldn't be able to kill Psimax.
And Psimax would get an AOO...
And if the forums are already nitpicky about the 38 way to kill a man with my thumbs issue then it's best to remain safe and sticking with established things.

You can thank me for ruining your joke later.

[apotato]

Minmax didn't actually know that 38 was psimax's weakness, he just found he was able to push his thumbs, and only his thumbs, through the shield. And besides, information on character sheets ARE universally defined information, things like levels aren't abstracts they are quite real, and while things can change that doesn't mean that as long as they hold they are not effective.

i agree he didn't know, or else he wouldn't have tried yet another weapon he picked up while levitating above the ground

and while i agree levels and such are real and minmax's knowledge of 38 thumb techniques is real. i dispute how that would factor into the physical aspects of the universe they occupy. as i said. while i dislike the notion of reality 38 becoming immune to psimax at all, THAT was a defineable aspect of the pocket universe.

changing 77billion to 38 is akin to making pi = 23.45 so your igloo wont fall over
the 38 thumb techniques is akin to relabelling the protractor. the igloo would still fall down no matter what the measuring device reads as the rules holding it up weren't altered you just changed some symbols around.

[Pink Bunny]

Wouldn't the character sheet be a universal constant? I mean this is the same universe where -10 clearly pops over someone's head when they're dead and where everyone acknowledges what we'd almost call meta as physical laws of their universe without them finding it strange to do so-- see the Goblins arguing about how checks and physical attributes literally work. These are natural things for them to say and are definitely part of their universe.

[apotato]

well minmax is 6 feet tall on his character sheet, but they wouldn't use 6 as the weakness as it's an arbitrary unit of measurement. however....

the same page suggests setting it to 4 and then throwing 4 rocks at him. i was wrong, so i apologise for thinking this page was stupid and continue with my previous this whole story arc is stupid opinion. i welcome the return to the GAP when it happens.

[Krulle]

That wouldn't work.

Minmax is physically incapable of doing that.

Don't forget he is incapable of rhyming on purpose :lol: .
Otherwise he wouldn't have improved unarmed strike because that's what he traded his ability to rhyme on purpose for...
And then he would only be able to do non-lethal damage with an unarmed strike...

You can thank me for ruining your joke later.

The way I pronounce "four", it doesn't rhyme with "war"...

[Mithcoriel]

THAT. WAS. AWESOME!
Thunt you sneaky genius you.

And no, I didn't see it coming AT ALL. What, you mean there were people on here who guessed it? Yikes, I gotta frequent the forum less then.

And I don't think Thunt should have modernized the goblin panel or left it away. It's awesome exactly as it is, knocking the player over the head with sudden flashback-realization.

No, the oblivion holes are NOT true oblivion; we've been over this a bazillion times. He is destroyed, and everybody forgets about him. But the effects of his existence remain. Which means his broken counter will remain, which means he MAY be restored when the MoM resets, and if so, he would probably STILL remember everything about this iteration.


mnem
Kinda like Deja vu. Kinda like Deja vu.

which invalidates psimax's plan from the outset then. he crumbles everything into pseudo-oblivion and the maze resets putting everything back where it was. that still leaves the other strategies for making him a non-issue i suggested that do NOT use pseudoblivion as a main component. some of which actually allow for redemption since he's technically not evil...just a jerk

The holes only cause pseudo-oblivion cause his calculations were wrong. If his plan succeeded, he would have caused REAL oblivion.

And I don't know why people have an issue with the 38. Yes, six feet is arbitrary, cause you could just as well measure his height in meters, and then it wouldn't be 6. But 38 isn't arbitrary in the same way, since the methods for killing someone with your thumb that he learned were discreet units, 38 of them.

[PseudoFenton]

People seem to be miss-understanding how the properties of Psimax weakness work.

When 'four' is suggested, they say that they can throw "four rocks" at him - at once. There are four rocks, all of which are thrown together. This doesn't mean that if you threw 8 rocks, two of them would be the "forth" rock and the "next forth" rock, and thus count - there are 8 of them being thrown and therefore they have an inherent 'eightness' to them.
This would mean that no, if you threw a handful of sand, it would not have a bunch of random grains (every '38th' grain) pierce the shield, unless you threw a handful of exactly 38 grains - at which point all of them would pierce the shield. Counting collections of objects is a fundamental aspect of mathematics, the order in which you count them is not. When four rocks are thrown, together, there is no "second" rock, as there is no discrete observer which determines the order to which they are counted. They are all equally likely to be the "second" just as much as they are likely to be the "forth".

This is an extension of the reason that 'six' is stated as not working. The fact that minmax as a height of 'six' {measurement} means nothing to the world as a whole. The {measurement} is not an intrinsic of fundamental mathematics or the universe, it is an arbitrary method of comparison. If they knew the SI unit of length for the the universe (in the same way as computer games have a fundamental unit used to define length that is used internally for the engine to perform calculations with) then they could use minmax's height in that, but they don't so they can't. Equally, as there is no fundamental method of counting grouped objects, you can't simply apply a counting {measurement} and expect it to work.

However, once the number is set to 38, anything that can be fundamentally associated with that number does count.
We all know the world is just a game, we also know that it has mechanics that govern it. Therefore as every character in the game has a character sheet, which literally defines who they are and which lists their different abilities - it is an intrinsic measurement of data for the universe as a whole. In the same was a Goldmax was considered to be a '38' version thanks to the underlying numbering mechanic of the maze, anything determined by a character sheet that is numbered 38 is part of the the underlying mechanics of the world itself. This is why Minmax doesn't and didn't use each of his other 37 different thumb attacks before finally using the last one that worked. He attacked with the thumb attack that is listed last on his character sheet, the 38th one he knew. This attack had an intrinsic 'thirty-eightness' to it because it is defined by a non-arbitrary measurement, one that is defined by the underlying mechanics of the world they live in.

We all know that despite the fact that mixmax as a character is stupid as hell, his player is far from being stupid. Using the shifting sword on an oblivion hole to create oblivious is just one in a long line of creative re-interpretations of the rules of the world to gain another bonus. His entire character sheet has been tailored to optimise every last detail, even his name is an ironic hat-tip to his munchkining ways. They're clearly gifted with both amazing lateral thinking to think up half of their stuff, and a tongue of pure silver to convince 'Herbert' (the GM) to allow it! It's not hard to imagine the scene around the gaming table as minmax's player weasels his way into a 'cheap'/easy victory thanks to the established facts that Herbert has already laid out over the current scenario.

That doesn't mean people have to like it, of course. However it does make sense, it is consistent with the rules as presented, and its consistent with the narrative as a whole. Minmax acts like Minmax should, and Psimax didn't die thanks to a joke, or because of a random fluke - he died because Minmax's player is smarter than him and could both find, and execute, a perfect solution whilst still acting in character. He out-played him. It is a game, much like chess, and despite Psimax thinking he had checkmate in two moves (obtain Oblivious, finish Machine) and therefore couldn't lose - he discovered that Minmax had it in one (exploit Weakness).

I, personally, am very satisfied by this conclusion to the fight.

[Changes_everything]

By the way, I am very saddened that this thread was not titled "thumbs up".

[Metus]

Omg, I thoroughly laughed, never expected something so far back to suddenly pop back here at a time like this. xDD Nice goin!

[Kriss50]

Fantastic page. What everyone seems to forget, is that once someone wins the MoM, it resets completely, restoring all of the people inside to life, repairing any damage to the MoM. And also, Psimax splishked the key: http://www.goblinscomic.org/04242013/ so how are they going to get into the treasure room?

[White Hawk]

I haven't been around for a while, but as is frequently the case, I could not leave a page like that read and uncommented upon, even if it's just to gush briefly about it being awesome:

It's awesome! I could not be more happy with the way that confrontation panned-out; it was well and truly satisfying.

I could join the arguments revolving around 'universal constants', but in my opinion, there is no argument. It just works for me.
_____

On a side-note, I just have to say that I couldn't be more pleased or honoured to discover that my Klikkies made it into the smilie pile. I haven't really visited the forums since the last upheaval, so I hadn't noticed. It might seem a small thing to get excited about to most people, but I'm really, really, really chuffed!

[Just_y]

Hello, very long time reader, first time poster.

I don't play D&D, but wouldn't defeating the insanely overpowered Psimax count for some serious XP for MM? Wouldn't it be like defeating a 10 lvl character? higher up? MM should jump two levels at least from this (and more XP gained since the trees room) to great warrior glory...

[Elvors]

i flat out call shenanigans on 38 ways to kill with your thumbs even being valid. minmax cant count, so he either tried all 38 in order and the 38th one punched through, OR his thumbs simply worked because he arbitrarily knows 38 ways to kill with thumbs. neither of which is a product of the MoM physics system.

The gears can redefine math to make 1=0.
Giving physical reality to mere concepts is a FAR lesser feat. Remember we're inside a pocked universe created by godlings to amuse themselves; anything goes in such a niche, even shenanigans.

On a tangent, my formal logic training tells me that from 1=0, you can prove anything ("ex falso quodlibet", the reasoning being along the lines "if my granny were an omnibus, she'd have four wheels" - silly but valid logic).
So if that math became reality trough the gears, anything and everything would exist, including the immovable wall and the unstoppable cannon ball just hitting it, logical inconsistencies notwithstanding.
So... if Psimax can prove that 1=0, he'd be in an act of super creation. This seems like the opposite of what he was actually trying.

Back on topic:
I miss a bit that Psimax doesn't get to explain why he thinks the world is horrible.
He was intelligent enough to know that joy and luckiness exist.
Was his view slanted by having seen too many universes of evil?
Did he come from an emotionless universe? (Unlikely, his Kin was clearly desperate.)
Did he follow that Buddhist illusion that living is suffering?
Was he just being unreasonable?
How did he justify acting against the obvious will - he should have been intelligent enough to see the flaws in his logic, so what overriding logic made him believe he was acting for the best of everybody?

he may have learned new thumb attacks or forgotten some now he has actual weaponry etc etc

The 38 ways to kill with a thumb aren't a universal constant. However, while the gears are as they are, 38 is the universal constant of doom for a specific Psimax.
It could be similar to the number 2 being the universal constant of symmetry. Having two apples isn't universal in any way, but IF you want to exploit symmetry, 2 apples will work.

If find this a bit unsatisfactory since all plans have failed and they get through by the sheer, blind luck that the number they picked happened to coincide with a characteristic of Minmax.
It's still grossly hilarous.

[LAYF]

Welcome Just_y
to answer your Q:
Well..yes and no.. depends on PsiMax lvl... you see... if an opponent is to strong compared to you, you don't get XP, as it is considered that the only way you can defeat so strong an opponent is by luck and nit actual skill....

[langerhans]

Hello, very long time reader, first time poster.

I don't play D&D, but wouldn't defeating the insanely overpowered Psimax count for some serious XP for MM? Wouldn't it be like defeating a 10 lvl character? higher up? MM should jump two levels at least from this (and more XP gained since the trees room) to great warrior glory...

i would agree, but generally in the comic party members all seem to level up at the same time, and since forgath hasn't done much recently... yeah, i dunno

also it's worth saying that he may have leveled up but there's not any visual representation of that in goblins, so we'll have to wait to find out

[Krulle]

It may depend on the DM.
It may be that the DM hands out XP for a quest solved collectively by diiding the XP along all players.
But Herbert also gives XP for good role-playing.
( http://www.goblinscomic.com/12022005/ and next page. I'm pretty sure this will also show up sometime, as far as we know, no role-playing XP has been handed out yet)

i would agree, but generally in the comic party members all seem to level up at the same time, and since forgath hasn't done much recently... yeah, i dunno

I'll just cite the comic for that:

2007-01-21Dwarf-XP.png

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But will he take a dump before exiting the MoM? (reasoning: the reset will clean that up)
That whole page now reeks of foreshadowing....

[Wolfie]

We had a character in a D&D game once kill a dragon with a single arrow to the eye. How? He crit'ed the shot thrice. (We worked on the rule of three for criticals. First roll for the critical, second to confirm, roll a third time and you could get an insta-kill.) Shenanigans? Damn right. Still within the rules? Yep.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that it isn't within the rules... and this is THunt's universe. We're just along for the ride. Contrived? Of course it is. THunt planned this 9 years ago. Arbitrary numbers on a character sheet are still real in this reality though. MinMax and Forgath are player characters, they have character sheets all filled out, even if we can't see them. AND just because the beginning of the comic was campy and goofy doesn't make it any less canon now.

It's a comic... relax folks. Sit back, enjoy your regularly scheduled updates, and be happy that we still have the wonderment that is "Goblins" to enjoy.

Fantastic page. What everyone seems to forget, is that once someone wins the MoM, it resets completely, restoring all of the people inside to life, repairing any damage to the MoM. And also, Psimax splishked the key: http://www.goblinscomic.org/04242013/ so how are they going to get into the treasure room?

Remember the treasure chest where MinMax got his armor? There were keys that looked exactly like the one that PsiMax splishked. Maybe one of them will work?

[Q4T]

This is good, however I'll be interested to learn the full power of his thumb, and why his mighty thumb was never used against Goblin Slayer. I know Tarol lists everything about everything in the comic, so I wonder if all 38 ways will be released.

[Master TMO]

Just logging in to post that I thought he'd use 38's polearm to finish him off with 38-ness. This was less predictable, and very satisfying.

[TheTinyMan]

He attacked with the thumb attack that is listed last on his character sheet, the 38th one he knew.

This is how I interpreted this, too, although I do think from the purple flashes in the comic that he didn't start with Thumb Move #38, but that he tried a few others first. "Height" is measured with arbitrary units - feet, meters, inches, whatever. However, "number of maneuvers" is not, and the first one he learned will always be the first one he learned - and the 38th one he learned will always be the 38th one he learned.

Although I guess there could be some interpretation regarding how maneuvers are grouped... the 38th thumb attack might be his 12,391st total attack, and it might also be the 819th move from Jiu-Jitsu that he knows. So maybe it's not measured *much* less arbitrarily than "height," I guess...

[PseudoFenton]

Hello, very long time reader, first time poster.

I don't play D&D, but wouldn't defeating the insanely overpowered Psimax count for some serious XP for MM? Wouldn't it be like defeating a 10 lvl character? higher up? MM should jump two levels at least from this (and more XP gained since the trees room) to great warrior glory...

Unfortunately for our fellow adventurers, CR doesn't work like that.

Psimax has a level, this defines his Challenge Rating (CR) of the encounter. The difference between the Equivalent Character Level (ECL) of the party (assumed to be four characters) and the CR defines how much XP you get.
You get diminishing returns for CR below your ECL (to a point of getting no XP for very easy encounters), and you get progressively more XP for higher CR - up to a point where none is awarded because the difficulty should make it impossible to win (and therefore any victory is clearly exploitative, fiat based or pure dumb luck).

The problem is not that no XP would be awarded here because Psimax was too powerful though, the problem is that Psimax is just as much of a minmaxing optimiser as our Minmax. This means that despite the fact that he is insanely powerful, he has become so without the inflation of his level, in theory he is the exact same level as our Minamx. So although the challenge of 1 vs 1 of the same level is defined as 'Very Difficult', Minmax woundn't get extra XP simply due to the fact that Psimax managed to optimise himself into an even more dangerous killing machine that he is. (It should also be pointed out that it technically wasn't 1 vs 1, as Kin helped change the machine that allowed minmax to win etc, so even less XP per character!)

This is actually the case with some pre-built monsters (in some editions), 3rd edition D&D makes all Dragons a lower CR than their actual stats (and therefore difficulty) would suggest they should be. This is to ensure that they are tough foes, but it does mean you get less XP for defeating them too! In earlier editions where monsters defined their treasure value, Dragons tended to have "triple treasure" ratings (whilst other monsters could easily have "none" for their treasure rating, to even things out), which did make up for this somewhat - although in more recent editions treasure is worked out from the CR too.

So - for the tldr version - no, its unlikely that Minmax will get a huge XP payout here.

[PseudoFenton]

Just logging in to post that I thought he'd use 38's polearm to finish him off with 38-ness. This was less predictable, and very satisfying.

That was where my money was too, that or re-summoning Not Walter somehow - good thing I don't bet.

This is how I interpreted this, too, although I do think from the purple flashes in the comic that he didn't start with Thumb Move #38

Oh yeah, he punched and performed other attacks too first, he was acting in character!

And yeah, there may be some dispute over just how attacks are grouped and counted, however he may well have picked up a feat that granted all 38 thumb based attacks (3ed edition tends to have that sort of thing defined by feat-bundles after-all) which would all be written in a list, therefore having a discrete '38'th.
Half the stuff Minmax has is quite abusive anyway (he can't rhyme or dress himself), which aint normally even options let alone ordinarily handled by the fidelity of the system! His player clearly has the gift of the gab when it comes to convincing the GM to allow things...