Kore Discussion / Speculation

[Makes Noises]

I'm not sure it's safe to assume Kore is more than a 1000 years old. I'd imagine a 1000 years of hard-koring would be enough to leave the realm empty of all life. After all, all life has a potential to evil... so essentially it is evil, amirite?

Well, we know for sure that Kore is cursed and is the last of the Greyhill Paladins, and that the Greyhill Paladins are important enough to Thuntverse that they warrant a place on his map, even though Kore is the last one and he lives a pretty travel-heavy life. We also know for sure that the paladins involved with the Axe's creations dabbled in forbidden magic and that only one of them survived. Combine that with the fact that Thunt has kept the identity of the Axe's first owner a secret, despite going into great detail regarding other owners, and the fact that Kore has encountered at least one owner of the Axe in the past and seems a little obsessed with it . . . it could be that they are two different Axe-associated, forbidden-magic-related, last-of-their-kind paladins, but that would leave an awful lot of of Checkov's guns lying around unused.

This theory does sound convincing. On the other hand, using Okkam's Razor, perhaps Kore just heard about the axe and, being insane as he is, decided that Paladin's Axe + Kore is a Paladin = The Axe Must Be His.

[YardMeat]

This theory does sound convincing. On the other hand, using Okkam's Razor, perhaps Kore just heard about the axe and, being insane as he is, decided that Paladin's Axe + Kore is a Paladin = The Axe Must Be His.

Occam's Razor is really more for science than it is for literature, but even then, it doesn't cut here. Occam's Razor favors explanations with few assumptions, and my "theory" can be simplified by using only one assumption: Kore is paladin that survived the events of the Axe's creation. The other stuff is just added support for the theory, no additional assumptions, namely:

Only one paladin survived the creation of the Axe, and Kore is the last Greyhill paladin. This is the big one.
The paladins and clerics that created the Axe relied on forbidden magic, and Kore is cursed.

[MakesNoSense]

This theory does sound convincing. On the other hand, using Okkam's Razor, perhaps Kore just heard about the axe and, being insane as he is, decided that Paladin's Axe + Kore is a Paladin = The Axe Must Be His.

Occam's Razor is really more for science than it is for literature, but even then, it doesn't cut here. Occam's Razor favors explanations with few assumptions, and my "theory" can be simplified by using only one assumption: Kore is paladin that survived the events of the Axe's creation. The other stuff is just added support for the theory, no additional assumptions, namely:

Only one paladin survived the creation of the Axe, and Kore is the last Greyhill paladin. This is the big one.
The paladins and clerics that created the Axe relied on forbidden magic, and Kore is cursed.

You could also add that Kore has a connection with the axe.

All in all, it makes for what I think is a likely scenario (as I theorized previously). But, we cannot "safely assume".

There is one big issue with Kore being the last surviving paladin from that original group - he would have likely been the first "owner" of the axe. I'm not sure how the story would work getting around that, but don't forget Saral Caine kept the armour from the axe until Ears claimed it as his own. So, how did Kore lose the axe in the first place? How did he relinquish his claim? It does not seem like the sort of thing he would do voluntarily.

The world believes Kore is cursed, he believes he is blessed - and I feel this curse/blessing is tied into the Axe of Prissan somehow, someway. But, 1000 years have passed since the creation of the axe, by no means does the story NEED to extend the life of a Paladin to abnormal lengths. It is only done if it makes sense for the storyline.

Now, I fully believe that there is a likely connection. Having one surviving paladin from 1000 years ago and having one surviving paladin from a northern town not being the same person does not really constitute leaving loose ends to me. I think it would be nice storytelling to have them be one and the same, or at least to have a strong/deep connection. But, usually we could "safely assume" that after 1000 years, the original paladin is dead, not the other way around.

Beyond that, as a side note, William of Ockham was a philosopher who spent a lot of time on theology, he was not strictly a scientist. The arguments he made, which later inspired the term "Occam's Razor", were not limited to science. The basic principle has always been "the simplest answer is usually the correct one." As such, it is a principle that can be applied across many fields, not being limited to science.

[YardMeat]

There is one big issue with Kore being the last surviving paladin from that original group - he would have likely been the first "owner" of the axe. I'm not sure how the story would work getting around that, but don't forget Saral Caine kept the armour from the axe until Ears claimed it as his own. So, how did Kore lose the axe in the first place? How did he relinquish his claim? It does not seem like the sort of thing he would do voluntarily.

That's definitely something that would need to be filled in, but I don't think it constitutes a "big issue." He certainly wouldn't be the first to part with the Axe involuntarily.

The world believes Kore is cursed, he believes he is blessed - and I feel this curse/blessing is tied into the Axe of Prissan somehow, someway. But, 1000 years have passed since the creation of the axe, by no means does the story NEED to extend the life of a Paladin to abnormal lengths. It is only done if it makes sense for the storyline.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the story needs it to happen, just that it makes the most narrative sense.

Having one surviving paladin from 1000 years ago and having one surviving paladin from a northern town not being the same person does not really constitute leaving loose ends to me.

In a narrative sense, it leaves quite a few, unless the author is using some major misdirection.

I think it would be nice storytelling to have them be one and the same, or at least to have a strong/deep connection. But, usually we could "safely assume" that after 1000 years, the original paladin is dead, not the other way around.

Sure, that's what we would assume if there were not another last-of-his-kind paladin associated with forbidden magic (and the Axe) and whose history plays likely plays some sort of major role in the history of the Thuntverse itself. Again, keep in mind that the Greyhill Paladins are historically important enough to warrant a place on the map, despite the fact that there is only one left.

To put it another way, well before we knew that Kore was the last of the Greyhill Paladins, a common theory amongst forumites was that the Greyhill Paladins were involved in the creation of the Axe. It made the most narrative sense. We knew an important group of paladins were involved and there was only one group of named paladins in the story. There was also a pet theory, of course, that Kore was the last remaining paladin from the creation of the Axe. Now that we know that there is only one surviving Greyhill Paladin, and that paladin is Kore, it should serve to bolster both theories.

Beyond that, as a side note, William of Ockham was a philosopher who spent a lot of time on theology, he was not strictly a scientist. The arguments he made, which later inspired the term "Occam's Razor", were not limited to science. The basic principle has always been "the simplest answer is usually the correct one." As such, it is a principle that can be applied across many fields, not being limited to science.

Regardless, it is being misused here. The "simplest answer" is the one with the fewest assumptions, and this really only involves one assumption--one which is supported by other narrative elements.

[MakesNoSense]

To further the one point, it seems to me like the only reason Saral Caine lost control involuntarily, was because he was not a Paladin and Ears was. I saw that as sort of a "safety feature" built into the axe. But Kore, being a Paladin, would (in theory) not have been subject to that. So, how he lost the axe in the first place would be its own story. I can think of several plausible narratives that could explain it, but it does not currently have its own explanation in the story.

Anyways. One of the interesting side notes in this, was re-reading the link Krulle posted regarding the previous owners of the axe. Drose, the paladin golem who became accidentally merged with the axe because there was no life force, voluntarily gave up the axe to another paladin because he felt the demon trapped inside the axe begin to gain control over his body actions. It makes me wonder that if Kore was the "surviving paladin", was he entirely alive? Did the axe link with him and sustain his life somehow? For that matter, during the creation of the axe, did he somehow become linked directly to it? Either way, his curse could very well be a result of the demon controlling him.

[Krulle]

To further the one point, it seems to me like the only reason Saral Caine lost control involuntarily, was because he was not a Paladin and Ears was. I saw that as sort of a "safety feature" built into the axe. But Kore, being a Paladin, would (in theory) not have been subject to that. So, how he lost the axe in the first place would be its own story. I can think of several plausible narratives that could explain it, but it does not currently have its own explanation in the story.

Anyways. One of the interesting side notes in this, was re-reading the link Krulle posted regarding the previous owners of the axe. Drose, the paladin golem who became accidentally merged with the axe because there was no life force, voluntarily gave up the axe to another paladin because he felt the demon trapped inside the axe begin to gain control over his body actions. It makes me wonder that if Kore was the "surviving paladin", was he entirely alive? Did the axe link with him and sustain his life somehow? For that matter, during the creation of the axe, did he somehow become linked directly to it? Either way, his curse could very well be a result of the demon controlling him.

Maybe Kore is Drose. (Don't know why the identity change is necessary, maybe to go hiding from the fame as a previous owner of the AoP, or just because a paladin in so much armour is unrecognisable, and therefore indistinguishable from being a Dwarf or Golem)
And the demon got sufficiently of himself transferred to Drose to have been able to nurture the need for the axe, so that Kore goes after it.

[Liesmith]

I'm guessing Kore only knows about the Axe because Big Ears tried to smack him with it, which instantly granted him its backstory. It's certainly possible that he has some other connection to it, but I think that's all headcanon at this point...we just don't have enough to go on (but I love reading these theories).

I'm half hoping that Kore's affliction is related to something else mentioned earlier in the comic...maybe something small that was referenced once in an aside, and never brought up again....

[Krulle]

I'm guessing Kore only knows about the Axe because Big Ears tried to smack him with it, which instantly granted him its backstory. It's certainly possible that he has some other connection to it, but I think that's all headcanon at this point...we just don't have enough to go on (but I love reading these theories).

Kore knows it much longer, at least one previous owner got followed by Kore. (Flejj Hillmover, see quote from previous discussions before)

3. Kore, the demon and the Axe
Haven't found official source but a former wielder, Flejj Hillmover, has been attacked by Kore twice and his (unofficial) bio says that Kore pursued him because of the Axe. This implies several things:
- Kore has known the Axe for quite some time, what's more explicitly and actively sought it in the past ([url=ttp://www.goblinsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6& ... ore#p22935]see Flejj Hillmover transcription[/url])

[/quote]

So, Kore knew about the Axe before he met Ears. He just did not expect to see the Axe in the hand of "evil" Goblins.

Thunt himself confirmed that the AoP pages fit perfectly into the storyline and should be considered to be "canon".
He may have changed his mind since back then, but I have seen no evidence of any contradictions.

edit: corrected a missing [/quote] tag.

[BuildsLegos]

Thunt has made it very clear that he won't retcon ANYTHING about the Goblins story. The only undecided detail is how some parts of the future look, like how Duv & Fox's fight was inspired by the waterfall that he *just* found.

[Makes Noises]

New theory: the Axe is the One Ring. Kore is Gollum. And the trapped demon is Sauron.

It all makes sense!

[YardMeat]

One of the interesting side notes in this, was re-reading the link Krulle posted regarding the previous owners of the axe. Drose, the paladin golem who became accidentally merged with the axe because there was no life force, voluntarily gave up the axe to another paladin because he felt the demon trapped inside the axe begin to gain control over his body actions. It makes me wonder that if Kore was the "surviving paladin", was he entirely alive? Did the axe link with him and sustain his life somehow? For that matter, during the creation of the axe, did he somehow become linked directly to it? Either way, his curse could very well be a result of the demon controlling him.

Holy crap, that's a great catch! I really need to go and read the histories of the Axe holders again.

[MakesNoSense]

New Kore speculation... underneath the closed part of the helmet was the helpless non-demon-controlled part of Kore which is trapped in a metal-encased-fishbowl-like-thing riveted to his head, clinging to the last little bits of sanity... thats why Forgath looks so surprised



I just can''t wait for the new comic to be up! So excited!!!!

[Glemp]

In light of the most recent comic,

► Show Spoiler

We now owe an apology to everyone who claimed the dots under Kore's helmet (seen earlier) were eyes, which we discarded as being silly.

[Wolfie]

No we don't. It's all speculation until proven.

► Show Spoiler

I don't think anyone called spirits/ghosts/souls living/crawling out of Kore's skin... despite there being "eyes" in there

[MakesYouSmell]

One of the interesting side notes in this, was re-reading the link Krulle posted regarding the previous owners of the axe. Drose, the paladin golem who became accidentally merged with the axe because there was no life force, voluntarily gave up the axe to another paladin because he felt the demon trapped inside the axe begin to gain control over his body actions. It makes me wonder that if Kore was the "surviving paladin", was he entirely alive? Did the axe link with him and sustain his life somehow? For that matter, during the creation of the axe, did he somehow become linked directly to it? Either way, his curse could very well be a result of the demon controlling him.

Holy crap, that's a great catch! I really need to go and read the histories of the Axe holders again.

Oh, readers have been calling for Paladin of Prissan for a long time now. I've always believed that the kurse simply has him linked to the ax in a bad way, which is also keeping him 'alive'. He's forced to view himself as serving a single role -- containing the demon. Until he can get his hands on it again, he contains every seed of evil he encounters, no matter how insanely small of an evil it might be. Because it's his job to contain evil, and also rogue evil could set the demon free.

[YardMeat]

Oh, readers have been calling for Paladin of Prissan for a long time now.

I'm well aware; I've been calling that for a couple of years now myself, ever since I started reading the comic. I wasn't talking about that.

No, the "great catch" I was talking about was the golem connection. Until the most recent comic, I had speculated that Kore may be some sort of golem, and MakesNoSense pointed out that one of the previous Axe owners was a golem paladin, and that his golem nature made him susceptible to the evil within the Axe. But none of that matters now.

I've always believed that the kurse simply has him linked to the ax in a bad way, which is also keeping him 'alive'. He's forced to view himself as serving a single role -- containing the demon. Until he can get his hands on it again, he contains every seed of evil he encounters, no matter how insanely small of an evil it might be. Because it's his job to contain evil, and also rogue evil could set the demon free.

So, like the Axe, Kore is a prison. That makes a lot of sense. I'm still not sure how he has retained his abilities, but it does give him a stronger connection to the Axe.

[MakesYouSmell]

I've always believed that the kurse simply has him linked to the ax in a bad way, which is also keeping him 'alive'. He's forced to view himself as serving a single role -- containing the demon. Until he can get his hands on it again, he contains every seed of evil he encounters, no matter how insanely small of an evil it might be. Because it's his job to contain evil, and also rogue evil could set the demon free.

So, like the Axe, Kore is a prison. That makes a lot of sense. I'm still not sure how he has retained his abilities, but it does give him a stronger connection to the Axe.

He's probably retained them because he serves the Ax; a mindless, messed up, major force with only one purpose. Much like himself.

[YardMeat]

He's probably retained them because he serves the Ax; a mindless, messed up, major force with only one purpose. Much like himself.

That would work well with the crack in his head. I guess I was closer than I thought with my partial lobotomy theory.

Just a thought running through my head:

PC&P (Prissan Clerics and Paladins): We need to imprison this demon!
Kore: Can it be contained?
PC&P: That would take powerful, forbidden magic, and we would need a vessel.
Kore: I volunteer to be the vessel.
PC&P: Okay.
Kore: (Headasplode)
PC&P: Uh, I think we're going to need a new prison.
Kores: Guys, I can totally still be a prison. Watch, I can imprison soooo many things.

[MakesYouSmell]

Just a thought running through my head:

PC&P (Prissan Clerics and Paladins): We need to imprison this demon!
Kore: Can it be contained?
PC&P: That would take powerful, forbidden magic, and we would need a vessel.
Kore: I volunteer to be the vessel.
PC&P: Okay.
Kore: (Headasplode)
PC&P: Uh, I think we're going to need a new prison.
Kores: Guys, I can totally still be a prison. Watch, I can imprison soooo many things.

That is almost exactly what I envision. 'Makes you wonder how many of those non-survivors might have been taken out by Kore, himself.

I could also see the demon forging some unexpected bond as he went down. Maybe Kore volunteered and something went wrong, or maybe the Prissaner had one last laugh before the bars slammed shut.

Ah. Sheisse. As much faith as I have in the Paladin of Prissan theory, what if Kore has the abilities of a paladin only because he ate a paladin? What if he is some sort of soul-collector like we've seen in Mortal Kombat, Wild Cards, Heroes, Legend of Nightfall, etc. What if his real goal is to carry as much evil as possible around so that he can throw it all at the Ax in a single wave, freeing the Prissaner? Then the demon gets eaten and Kore has his power...

Now that would make him a right bastard.

But I'm not going to speculate on who gave him the head wound. It looks like some of the faces have been carved into, so someone might have given it to him well into whatever misguided mission he's on.

[SoulReaver]

Wait a second. Is Kore a Soul Reaver? O_O

Forgive me my moment of vanity.

[MakesYouSmell]

Wait a second. Is Kore a Soul Reaver? O_O

Forgive me my moment of vanity.

I figured that would lure you in...

But, no matter how cool it would be, it may fit with "Join the other evil-doers...", but not really "Evil must be destroyed".

[Glemp]

For what it's worth...

I think that Kore knows he is evil. His goal is to gather up the souls of every evil or even slightly evil creature in the realm by evil means, and then commit suicide to leave a realm completely free of evil where no evil can ever take root.

And that's...six uses of the word "evil". C-c-c-combo!

[YardMeat]

For what it's worth...

I think that Kore knows he is evil. His goal is to gather up the souls of every evil or even slightly evil creature in the realm by evil means, and then commit suicide to leave a realm completely free of evil where no evil can ever take root.

And that's...six uses of the word "evil". C-c-c-combo!

As in . . .

The Operative: I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?
Mal: I don't murder children.
The Operative: I do, if I have to.
Mal: Why? Do you even know why they sent you?
The Operative: It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.
Mal: So me and mine gotta lay down and die so you can live in your better world?
The Operative: I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there any more than there is for you. Malcolm, I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.

I'm tempted to agree with you.

[Wolfie]

That theory/opinion has been put forth before.

(By me and several other if memory serves). It's my favorite of them all.

[RocketScientist]

If Kore is the Goblinverse version of The Operative... that guy freaks me out without having a gazillion faces on his head.