The Heist - 5e D&D Game

[Dusk9]

Basically

(Again though, you'd still need good Initiative for it to work reliably. If their Initiative roll is better than yours, then they won't be Surprised anymore once it's your turn to attack, so no auto-crit.)

[M0rtimer]

What if the battle is initiated through a sneak attack, though? Assuming one stays undetected until the actual attack occurs, wouldn't initiative not even have been rolled yet, and the bonus applied? Surprise also just seems to extend in the sense that if you DO "mess up", or simply initiate a regular battle, they still count as surprised for the first round if you can get in an attack.

[Dusk9]

By RAW, all combat happens after Initiative is rolled.

For example, say that player X is sneaking up on player Y and wants to attack. X and Y both roll initiative before anything happens.

► Show Spoiler

Example 1:
- X rolls 10, and Y rolls 8.
- X goes first and attacks on round 1, while Y is Surprised and can't do anything.
- On round 2 X attacks first again, but this time Y is prepared, and can use a Reaction (to cast Shield or something I dunno).

Example 2:
- X rolls 5, and Y rolls 15.
- Y goes first, but spends his turn being Surprised. X then attacks, but as Y isn't Surprised anymore, he can use a Reaction (and doesn't get affected by Assassin's auto-crit).
- On round 2, Y gets to go first and combat plays out as normal.

So yeah, by RAW (and RAI, I'm pretty sure) Assassin's need to win initiative to get their bonus damage in. So getting stuff like Advantage on Initiative is really powerful.

[M0rtimer]

I think it actually depends on what exactly is intended by taking a "turn" myself, mostly. Say that player A is sneaking up on an enemy. Other characters are waiting nearby, so you actually start the initiative already so you can determine action order in case things go wrong, and have a player roll stealth on each of his turns... The guard they're sneaking up has no clue anything is going on, so he's not doing anything/patrolling. Then A manages to attack without having been seen- So the guard would NOT be surprised because he was part of the "battle" before?

I personally think a "turn" is meant to imply the character attacking/unsheathing a weapon/even just moving in response to an attack.

Did find this which seems to suggest surprise rounds are a thing: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_SRD:Surprise and that those should always proc the assassinate ability, assuming you actually manage to succeed with it..?

I dunno. RAI to me would seem like the intent is to have the "difficult" part of an ambush be the actual sneaking up and stealth part, not the random roll for initiative to determine whether you're faster or not. Sure stealth is still "random", but you're get what I'm trying to say.

[spiderwrangler]

There is a slight distinction between being surprised and not having taken their turn in combat. All of the former are the latter, but not all of the latter are the former.

If they are aware of you, you wouldn't get the 'surprise round' like you do in the second battle. Then it's all down to who rolls higher on initiative.

If you come up on them unaware, then you get a surprise round, but in my experience, this is fairly rare (DM depending).

However, the Rogue Assassin's extra stuff triggers on attacks against ones who haven't gone, so that covers both cases.

*Edit: You get advantage in both cases, which triggers sneak attack, it's still only a critical if they are truly surprised.

[M0rtimer]

Yeah, I'm not trying to say that one HAS to proc a surprise round rather than just act first in initiative (That'd be nerfing my own ability if I end up taking it, why would I want to do that. ), but that it seems silly to me to actually succeed in doing a stealthy attack, then not proc assassin because they win in initiative. It just seems weird to effectively ambush someone unnoticed but not trigger it.

Surprise rounds sounds like they'd work, though I'd agree that yeah, generally they're unlikely to happen in an usual setting... Considering every enemy gives a roll against every ally there is, which should make it unlikely even barring other circumstances that can mess things up... Given that we're to be playing a shorter game that's "supposed" to be about infiltrating a place and stealing something, there might be more opportunities to make it happen.

[spiderwrangler]

If you effectively Stealth and ambush someone unnoticed, who is out of combat, they'll be surprised.

[Dusk9]

If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.

"Surprise Rounds" aren't really a thing in 5e, as far as I understand it. Instead, "Surprised" is basically a status condition that prevents actions or reactions until your turn passes, at which point you lose the Surprised status. For example, if you were to ambush two guards, one might be more alert than the other and beat you on initiative, while the other is dopey and slow to react. You'd still attack first, since they're both Surprised and unable to act until next turn, but the alert guard would be still able to react faster and defend himself despite being caught off-guard.

[spiderwrangler]

Hmmmm... I think I missed that nuance, and was thinking that they were in the "Surprised" state until the start of their next turn, which would result in what is functionally a surprise round. But that would seem to indicate that you are no longer surprised after your turn has passed, but that leads to some weird timing issues.

Alvin Assassin sneaks up on Boris Bodyguard, who is completely unaware of Alvin's approach. Alvin gets ready to attack, and initiative is rolled. Alvin only rolls a 10, while Boris has a 15. Boris is up first, but being surprised, doesn't take any actions or movement (what if he were walking a patrol??). At the end of his turn, he is presumably no longer surprised, but nothing has happened to clue him off that there was anything to be surprised by. Now it's Alvin's turn, but Boris has been tipped off by the dice somehow, and is no longer surprised...?

Although, I suppose since it is DM discretion (with rolls as a aid) to say if someone is surprised, the DM could always slap the condition back on them after their turn passes?

Or not, according to WotC's Sage Advice....

Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round?

No, hereÔÇÖs how surprise works.

The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread ÔÇ£Combat Step by StepÔÇØ on page 189 of the PlayerÔÇÖs Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you canÔÇÖt be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see ÔÇ£Unseen Attackers and TargetsÔÇØ on page 194 of the PlayerÔÇÖs Handbook).

To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cubeÔÇÖs Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions arenÔÇÖt, and you arenÔÇÖt surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares.

If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature canÔÇÖt move or take an action or a reaction until its first first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you canÔÇÖt take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised.

In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first found of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you donÔÇÖt deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.

Still weird if NOTHING has happened combat wise, and they lose the surprised status.

[M0rtimer]

Yeah, I think it's just a matter of perspective at how you see things happening... You are basically arguing that the moment combat is initiated, if their initiative is higher, they turn to notice the player at the "last second" and hence are no longer surprised before they get to attack. Meanwhile I'd figure that initiative should have no relation to whether or not one is "spotted" or not, and that's what the perception checks leading up to it would be for. In the end though, you're the GM so you make the rules. It can be mandatory to wear silly hats if we invoke your wrath, for all we know.

And since I was ninja'd giving I was also working on my sheet while posting this: so yeah, while I'm still agreeing with Spider on finding it "weird", it DOES definitely seem to be both RAW and RAI. I guess that's only going to leave me to consider whether the assassin path is the best option, or if I should go for swashbuckler after all... Because it does imply that to proc it's effect I'd actually have to grab a surprised enemy, which would mean not only actually managing to sneak into range, but also beating an initiative to which I right now have no discernible bonuses, rather than just act first..? To get the crit effect, at least.

Anyways, let me start getting up a basic version of my sheet... Not done yet, but basics.

HP rolls: HP roll: 2D8+2D12 = [6, 7]+[5, 10] = 28

Only one roll below average, which I think would be translated to 7, so together with the 9 HP at lvl 1 + 3HP/level, I should have... 51 HP?

Also just to verify - The ability score improvement requires you to actually get lvl 4 in a class, right? It's not like proficiency bonus in that it counts combined levels for these "milestones"?

--------------------------------------

Name:
Race: Half Orc (+2 STR, +1 CON)
Class: Lv4 Rogue (swashbuckler) / Lv1 Barbarian

Description
Age: 24
Height: 5'10"
Weight: 490 lbs
Alignment: Chaotic Evil

Background: Sailor(pirate)
Feature: bad reputation No matter where you go, people are afraid of you due to your reputation. When you are in a civilized settlement, you can get away with minor criminal offenses, such as refusing to pay for food at a tavern or breaking down doors at a local shop, since most people will not report your activity to the authorities.

Backstory:

Physical Description:

STR: 17 ¦ Save: +3 ¦ Athletics +6
DEX: 16 ¦ Save: +6¦ Stealth/ Acrobatics +6, Sleight of Hand +3
CON: 16 ¦ Save +3
INT: 11 ¦ Save +3 ¦ Investigation +5, Arcana/History / Nature /Religion +2
WIS: 9 ¦ Save -1¦ Perception +2, Insight / Animal Handling/Medicine/Survival -1
CHA: 11 ¦ Save 0 ¦ Intimidation/ Deception +3, Persuasion / Performance 0

HP: 47/47
AC: 16 (10 + 3 DEX + 3 CON)
Speed: 30ft

Languages: Common, Thieves' Cant, Orcish
Armour Proficiencies: Light, Shields
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple Weapons, Hand Crossbows, Longswords, Rapiers, Shortswords, Martial weapons
Tool Proficiencies: Thieves tools, navigator tools, vehicles (water)
Carrying Capacity: 255lbs

Racial Abilities/Skills:
- Darkvision 60ft
- Menacing (proficiency with intimidate)
- Relentless Endurance: When you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead. You canÔÇÖt use this feature again until you finish a Long Rest.
- Savage Attacks: When you score a critical hit with a melee weapon Attack, you can roll one of the weaponÔÇÖs damage dice one additional time and add it to the extra damage of the critical hit.

Rogue Stuff
Expertise: Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses the chosen proficiencies. (Insight, Persuasion)
Sneak Attack: You know how to strike subtly and exploit a foeÔÇÖs distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 2d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon. You donÔÇÖt need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isnÔÇÖt incapacitated, and you donÔÇÖt have disadvantage on the attack roll.
Thieves Cant: Understand a secret language
Swashbuckler (archetype): Fancy footwork
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn how to land a strike and then slip away without reprisal. During your turn, if you make a melee attack against a creature, that creature canÔÇÖt make opportunity attacks against you for the rest of your turn.
Rakish Audacity: Starting at 3rd level, your confidence propels you into battle. You can give yourself a bonus to your initiative rolls equal to your Charisma modifier. You also gain an additional way to use your Sneak Attack; you donÔÇÖt need advantage on the attack roll to use your Sneak Attack against a creature if you are within 5 feet of it, no other creatures are within 5 feet of you, and you donÔÇÖt have disadvantage on the attack roll. All the other rules for Sneak Attack still apply to you.

Barbarian stuff
Rage: For one minute, advantage to strength checks/saving throws, +2 damage to attacks using strength, resistance to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing, can't cast spells.
Unarmored defense: Use con+dex when not wearing any armor


Equipment:
197 gold
backpack
ball bearings
10 feet of string
bell
5 candles
crowbar
hammer
pitons
hooded lantern
2 flasks of oil
5 days ration
tinderbox
waterskin
50 feet hemp rope
2 daggers
3 scimitars
Heavy crossbow

Tools:
Thieves tools

Attuned:
Weapon of warning

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[thinkslogically]

I think you guys might be overthinking a little, and it would suck pretty hard if the rules didn't work this way.

Basically, if you're a slow (i.e. crappy / unlucky) assassin, it would make sense that a more attentive target gets some chance to make a reflexive attempt to protect themselves or strike back (AOO is a reaction). The only thing the target can do is take a reaction against the attack, which is presumably because their reaction time is better than yours (DEX / Initiative).

From the other perspective, an auto-crit is potentially a TON of damage, and I'd be pissed if I didn't at least get some chance to save against it. By running surprise rounds into the initiative order, they essentially give the target a chance to do just that, like a DEX save vs a trap. It keeps the game more interesting, because now there's a chance to fail, and your assassin rogue (or the assassin NPC) can't just roll around town picking off everyone they see.

Also, here's a list of 5e reactions:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... Mini-Guide

[M0rtimer]

But that's not what either me or Spider are saying. The "save" against taking the damage happens in advance, when the enemy needs to roll perception against our stealth. And let us presume for a moment, the ideal setup for something like that: There's a single enemy, and he's just around the corner, you heard his footsteps with a perception check so you're only going to have to do one stealth roll. So you sneak up, successfully and, under current rules, would then also still need to beat him in initiative to get the feat to proc. So two "contesting" rolls you need to win, to get the feature to proc, which I agree is more than ok for a "free" crit.

But that is the ideal scenario. Let's expand on it- It's a longer hallway, so you're going to have to sneak towards the target for at least one round. So you'll end up making at least two rolls, three with initiative. Now, next let's presume the guy has buddies- Say two other guards are with him. We'd likely encounter groups bigger than threes more often than not I'd suspect. So now all three of them get to do perception rolls, and just one of them noticing the player is enough to ruin the opening as he alerts the others. Now also say that someone else is sneaking with you, you're essentially rolling at "disadvantage" to not get noticed.

I'm by no means trying to argue just for the sake of wanting it, but my current perception is that the feature, by default, is already rather situational/hard to pull off unless we face singular enemies... And that I think it'd feel rather stupid to then actually pull it off, only to have initiative say it's not happening because, as the most reasonable "explanation" is saying, split-second reaction times.

[SuperVaderMan]

I changed my mind, how do I do that instead?

Where do you get the third attack from though, if I may ask?

Yeah, basically what everyone else said

It's also why I picked War Caster as my 4th level feat. Maintaining concentration is vital to this build's damage output. Advantage on concentration checks helps a lot, and even in the event I do lose concentration I can just re-cast Hunter's Mark without having to put my weapons away.

Only he's not getting Advantage on every hit (so more crit chances), or 16AC while naked

Actually it's fairly easy to get Advantage as a Kobold, since they have Pack Tactics. They just have to not be out in the sun is all

Also since you're a 3rd level Rogue, Mort, your Sneak Attack damage is actually 2d6 per hit, not 1d6. So actually you could be doing 6d6+7 per round, with Rage and Sneak Attack bonuses. That's comparable to my damage output, and you're resistant to most weapon attacks while you're doing it.

[Dusk9]

I'll admit, at first I agreed with you guys that it was "weird" for things to work that way. But the more I thought about it, the more it made sense.

► Show Spoiler

Basically, people have two ways to avoid being caught by surprise. The first is to notice whatever is sneaking up on you, either by seeing it or hearing it or whatever. This is a WIS (perception) save against the Surprised status. The second is for them to reflexively react against the assassin jumping out of the bushes to stab them in the neck. You didn't hear them approaching, but your honed combat reflexes allow you to deflect the critical blow away from your neck and into your arm instead. You still get stabbed, but not as bad as it could've been. This is a DEX (initiative) save to take half damage.

But that is the ideal scenario. Let's expand on it- It's a longer hallway, so you're going to have to sneak towards the target for at least one round. So you'll end up making at least two rolls, three with initiative. Now, next let's presume the guy has buddies- Say two other guards are with him. We'd likely encounter groups bigger than threes more often than not I'd suspect. So now all three of them get to do perception rolls, and just one of them noticing the player is enough to ruin the opening as he alerts the others. Now also say that someone else is sneaking with you, you're essentially rolling at "disadvantage" to not get noticed.

Two things here;
1) I'm going to be avoiding multiple stealth/perception rolls if at all possible. You make one Stealth check to Hide, and anyone searching the area makes one Perception check to spot you. If they're not searching, then it goes off Passive Perception instead. This only changes if you do something that involves some risk of being spotted - for example, moving into the open/bright light then darting back into cover/shadow. Moving normally while hidden won't trigger more Stealth/Per checks.
2) One guard noticing won't automatically stop the others from being caught by Surprise. The same way one of you spotting an ambush won't prevent the rest from being Surprised. As long as you dive into combat immediately without giving him time to warn them, only the one who spotted you will be able to react immediately. The others will still be Surprised until their turn ends.

(Also sorry for filling the thread with all this rules discussion before we've even started playing! But I figured you'd assume the same thing I had at first, and didn't want you to pick Assassin then be disappointed later.)

[...] but also beating an initiative to which I right now have no discernible bonuses, rather than just act first..? To get the crit effect, at least.

I can think of a couple of ways for you to get some bonuses. Easiest option by far is to get some Guidance from Theis, for +1d4. Add on another +1d6 from Thinks casting Bardic Inspiration on you. And then, if you're struggling to think of a magic item to pick, a Weapon of Warning would give you Advantage on initiative rolls (plus make it so you can't be surprised yourself).

Also just to verify - The ability score improvement requires you to actually get lvl 4 in a class, right? It's not like proficiency bonus in that it counts combined levels for these "milestones"?

Yep, you need Lv4 in the class itself, unfortunately. So if you guys do hit Lv6 during this you'll have to pick between the ASI/Feat or Lv3 Barbarian subclass.

Danger sense: Advantage on dex saving throws against effects one can't see. Cannot be blinded, deafened or incapitated.

Just checking you understand how this works, since you worded it a bit weirdly - you gain advantage against effects you can see, provided you aren't blinded/deafened/incapacitated at the time. So if you were to step on some Explosive Runes, you'd see/hear them activate and roll advantage. But if you were blindfolded or had pink fluffy earmuffs on, you'd have to roll normally

Also since you're a 3rd level Rogue, Mort, your Sneak Attack damage is actually 2d6 per hit, not 1d6. So actually you could be doing 6d6+7 per round, with Rage and Sneak Attack bonuses. That's comparable to my damage output, and you're resistant to most weapon attacks while you're doing it.

Sneak Attack only triggers once per turn unfortunately, not once per attack. So even if both attacks hit, he's only getting 1d6+1d6+2d6+mods per turn.

However, Sneak Attack can trigger on opportunity attacks, since that's not on your turn.

[SuperVaderMan]

Attack only triggers once per turn unfortunately, not once per attack. So even if both attacks hit, he's only getting 1d6+1d6+2d6+mods per turn.

Hm! This is good clarification to have.

(Was totally planning on dipping into Rogue if we leveled up later for an extra 3d6 damage per turn, but now I'm not sure)

[Dusk9]

Yep, main reason for Rogue's to Dual Wield is to ensure the Sneak Attack damage actually goes through (you don't have to declare it before attacking, so if your first strike misses you can just apply it to the second).

But yeah, it's probably a good thing they limited Sneak Attack like that. Otherwise a Lv15 Rogue/Lv5 Fighter with Dual Wield would be dealing 24d6 Sneak Attack damage per turn, or 40d6 with Action Surge. And that's before you add in weapon damage + mods: with them the total would be something like 27d6+15 (45d6+25 w/ Action Surge)!

[thinkslogically]

Sure, I might have misunderstood the issue. But either way, I think the assassin is kind of designed to follow a specialised style of play. If you can focus your skills into making sure you always have high initiative plus methods for inhibiting or distracting your target (which isn't too hard to achieve in this edition) I think it could be a ton of fun. The GM would need to be on board for some of the setups to work obviously, but it doesnt sound like that's an issue here.

[M0rtimer]

While I will reserve my right to say I still think it's a bit silly, I will simultaneously concede there is a point to be made. In the end you're definitely the boss, and besides, you've at least subsided some of my worries- If you're going to try and reduce the amount of stealth checks to single attempts, it alleviates some of my worries, and does, essentially, reduce trying to proc the assassinate feature to a combination of two checks, and potentially, circumstance.

Which just leaves me to wonder if that is worth it above swashbuckler... I think swashbuckler, compared to assassin, is a bit more reliable/better overall. Need to get to the other side of the room, and two guys are blocking your path? Whop them both on the head as you pass, and you're fine. And I am also thinking of going for a pirate background, so technically it'd fit.

Assassin, on the other hands, while it'd be harder to pull off reliably, when it does get pulled off would be GLORIOUS. So naturally, that's the option I should probably pick.

So then to decide on the magic item to pick... (as well as the rest of stuff, later) I think that a cloak of elven kind might actually be better overall? Just considering it from the perspective of that I need to "fulfill" two checks to trigger the effect, I might as well boost the one that has a bigger chance of being useful in other situations, too. (Such as, when simply trying to sneak by someone without necessarily wanting to kill them. )

Gotta ask though, could I have an example of when the cloak's advantage would not trigger to help with stealth..? It seems like there should be situations that don't trigger it, but I fail to immediately think of an example that wouldn't be related to "hiding", and hence take advantage of the cloak.

[Dusk9]

Swashbuckler:
- Pros: Reliable mobility, synergy with dual wielding to hit multiple enemies, don't always need to use Reckless Attack to Sneak Attack
- Cons: Alternative Sneak Attack only works if you're fighting 1-on-1 in melee (and all the other PCs are melee fighters too)

Assassin:
- Pros: BIG NUMBERS! (also advantage on first hit)
- Cons: Poisoner's and Disguise Kits pretty much useless (unless you get creative)

....yeah, I'd probably have a hard time picking too

So then to decide on the magic item to pick... (as well as the rest of stuff, later) I think that a cloak of elven kind might actually be better overall? Just considering it from the perspective of that I need to "fulfill" two checks to trigger the effect, I might as well boost the one that has a bigger chance of being useful in other situations, too. (Such as, when simply trying to sneak by someone without necessarily wanting to kill them. )

Gotta ask though, could I have an example of when the cloak's advantage would not trigger to help with stealth..? It seems like there should be situations that don't trigger it, but I fail to immediately think of an example that wouldn't be related to "hiding", and hence take advantage of the cloak.

The way I see it, the cloak would only trigger with sight-based stealth.
- Example 1) You sneak past a guard in the shadows of a stone path. They have disadvantage to see you and you've got advantage on your Stealth. You're basically undetectable (unless you walk right in front of him ).
- Example 2) You sneak up behind a guard through some bushes. The rustling is what alerts the guard, so they make a (passive?) Per check to hear, and you make a regular Stealth check.

Boots of Elvenkind would basically swap those two around - you'd be impossible to hear coming, but easier to spot. Remember though that you can't Hide in plain sight. You still need to be heavily obscured in shadows or foliage first for it to work.

[M0rtimer]

I'm pretty convinced that, ultimately, swashbuckler would be the "better" choice if we're looking at things from a pure power-gaming perspective. Yes, sure, assassin holds some synergy with the half orc ability, and getting off two crits (dual wielding) instead of one is nice... But overall, swashbuckler would be far more reliable, would allow one to press advantage with select enemies and use reckless otherwise, trading out only like +2 damage I think?

Then again, assassin would be awesome when pulled off, so I'm still tempted to take it regardless.

Ah, visual vs auditory based stealth- Yeah, that makes sense. I might just take weapon of warning after all then, already have +6 in stealth to hopefully carry me... Ideally I'd get both, but that's not really an option.

[spiderwrangler]

I get the impression that assassin is probably better ranged than melee.

[M0rtimer]

Yeah, honestly, that's kind of the impression I got myself, and part of why I'm thinking that, for the current build I'm going for at least, swashbuckler is probably the "better" overall choice. The more I think about it, the more I seem to convince myself to pick that option, especially when it fits with me thinking of picking up a pirate background anyways. Not to say that he's not gonna carry around a ranged weapon "just in case", but still.

[Dusk9]

Can I just point out how funny it is that, in a DEX-favoured adventure, you've all picked melee-primary builds?

(Well, I suppose Jax is kinda the exception given he's a spellcaster, but his main weapon is still that rapier.)

And here I was worried you'd all want to be squishy back-liners...

[Theis2]

To be fair, it's a lot easier to make melee and DEX based builds in this version compared to earlier edition. But most of us should still be able to use ranged attacks somewhat reliably given that they use DEX too

I think our collective dumb stat seems to be INT for some reason though

[M0rtimer]

My character is still plenty dexterous! Technically even more dexterous rather than brute force, but he just deals in both.

Won't argue about dump stats, though.